New US law to ban locking folders !!!

[cockroach]

Thanks PJ,
First, I don't support a ban on locking knives (and don't want Spyderco to stop producing them, or for you to stop carrying them).
But, we've got a ban, and we've got to live with it.
It's not new, it's been challenged plenty (unsuccessfully) and it's here to stay. Now, accepting that as the case, and having a company like Spyderco produce a modern high quality legal slipjoint which I am happy to use, is not what I would call kowtowing to a totalitarian regime, more like just getting on with your life.
If you seriously think your laws aren't going to go the same way, to what degree I don't know, I think you're in for a rude awakening. Look at the way the existing gravity knife law has been interpreted/enforced recently in New York. You might regard the UK law as senseless and failed (not without justification - remember, I don't support it either, I just have to live with it), but that's not the way governments think. If the government didn't think it was working, do you think they would scrap it, or do you think they would tighten it even further?
Wanting Spyderco to produce more slipjoints, and stating how safe they are in use, and that you might be surprised if you try one, is not the same as suggesting that they are all you need, or all you should be allowed.

[The General]

We have a saying in the UK.

La la la la la... oh its happened? Happened to us, might happen to anyone.

Why does any thread discussing the realities of knife perception and law have to turn into a Brit bashing thread? :rolleyes:

How many times have I read threads where the general public at large in America DO NOT accept pocket knives in general as permitted or acceptable? Its a WORLD WIDE phenomenon.

Lets not make this a point the finger fest please?

Yes, the question was worded in a manner that I expected this kind of response. Unfortunate choice of words...

[Spydiman]

How many times have I read threads where the general public at large in America DO NOT accept pocket knives in general as permitted or acceptable? Its a WORLD WIDE phenomenon.

I don't know, while people can freak out anywhere about anything, in America, we won't go to the slammer for carrying a Ladybug.

[The General]

I don't know, while people can freak out anywhere about anything, in America, we won't go to the slammer for carrying a Ladybug.

The odds of that in the UK are so slight as to be almost no existant.

The knife carry rules and laws in NYC were far more intrusive when I was there than anything I deal with where I live.

There is a curious mindset here that locking folders are illegal in the UK. This is NOT true.

Banned and illegal are very different from needing a "reasonable reason for carry"

I have never, ever had a problem carrying a large locking folder almost daily. If I can't provide a reasonable reason for carry, I carry a UKPK.

[Bolster]

Why does any thread discussing the realities of knife perception and law have to turn into a Brit bashing thread?

Quite right, General. This thread isn't about nationalist differences, it's about knife carry laws that range from potential to likely. I fully agree with my UK bretheren, that further restrictions of knife laws are likely in the USA. And it wouldn't surprise me if they were fashioned after UK laws.

Some folks fail to realize that all that stands between today's laws and tomorrow's new restrictions is one media-driven event that features an "evil knife," and a politician who sees a way to capitalize on it.

Emoting at length on a forum of knife enthusiasts about the foolishness of anti-knife laws is preaching to the choir. The point here is that knife users need to organize and prepare for what could happen, and our friends in the UK are giving us a "heads up" warning.

[Andy_L]

Am I right in thinking that in some points in the US the blade length for carry is 2.5inches? I also seem to remember a bit where a major paper had a knife bashing article and showed a picture of a buck metro with a 1 1/8 blade.

I don't see a big step from that to people wanting more restictive knife laws. There is of course the difference that for many self defence is a reason for carrying the the US but not a valid reason in the UK but I'm not sure that will stop laws making it more difficult for you to carry a a knife

To be fair the UK Law never intended to include locking knives in the sub 3inches bit, it's here now but I think for the most part you'd have to be unlucky to have any real problems if it was the only thing the police were bothered about.

[The Deacon]

Yeah, but the irony is that in many places, if a person is picked up for attempting to break into a house, for example, if he has a simple flathead screwdriver on him, you'll read in the papers that he was charged with "possession of 'burglary tools'" in addition to the burglary itself.

-PJ

That's not irony, thats common sense. Just like if I went somewhere carrying a claw hammer or a cordless drill and used it on someones kneecap, I'd be charged with assault with a deadly WEAPON, not illegal use of a tool. In the context of a burglary, a screwdriver, while not evil in itself, does makes it easier for the criminal to enter the building he intends to burglarize.

[Darkfin]

I also seem to remember a bit where a major paper had a knife bashing article and showed a picture of a buck metro with a 1 1/8 blade.

PDF of that article HERE.

[Slick]

To smcfalls13

The tools vs weapons is not a problem. Or it is a problem depending on ...

A knife is easily defined as a weapon. Even my little bitty pen knife. The little bitty scissors are an argument for tool but it still is a weapons. A very sharp tool.

If a knife is a tool that does not mean it is not also a weapon.

If a knife is a weapon it still can be used as a tool.

The law can be an ***.

[Andy_L]

surely the reason why the carry laws would be restricted is so that the knives more likely or better suited to be used as a weapon are no longer allowed without a non weapon reason. This woulsd seem to be admitting that they want to stop people carrying a weapon

Thanks for the PDF on the paper, I doubt many police in the UK would be concerned with you carrying that.

As a side note I was told by a policeman that if he found someone with a criminal maker (a non harming paint thing that will block vision and hopefully give you time to get away) and a knife he would have grounds to argue that I was carrying the knife as a weapon. since one get's carried during the day and the other when out in pubs it's not a huge problem

[Jenner 515]

"-And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire... -"

Milton from Office Space.

First Swingline staplers then Spydercos? If that happens maybe I'll set the building on fire...

[Jordan]

lex malla, lex nulla

[The Deacon]

surely the reason why the carry laws would be restricted is so that the knives more likely or better suited to be used as a weapon are no longer allowed without a non weapon reason. This woulsd seem to be admitting that they want to stop people carrying a weapon

If that is true, then the most logical knives to restrict, at least in my neck of the woods, would be kitchen knives, and box cutters/"Stanley" knives, since they are the weapon of choice in the overwhelming majority of knife assaults. Most of the incidents also occur in "the home" or workplace (kitchen workers here seem to be alarmingly short-tempered) and most often the victim and perpetrator know one another, often in the biblical way. ]Thanks for the PDF on the paper, I doubt many police in the UK would be concerned with you carrying that.[/QUOTE]I doubt that any police officer in the US would either, unless perhaps you were waving it around opened. Newspapers here run the gamut from diligently honest reporters of the facts to rags where half-truths and outright lies are the order of the day. I'd bet it's probably the same on your side of the Atlantic.

As a side note I was told by a policeman that if he found someone with a criminal maker (a non harming paint thing that will block vision and hopefully give you time to get away) and a knife he would have grounds to argue that I was carrying the knife as a weapon. since one get's carried during the day and the other when out in pubs it's not a huge problem

Ah, the old "if it walks like a duck" school of police work, it gets used a lot here too. The "good news" is that almost all LEOs here are fairly reasonable, and reasonably fair. Of the remainder more combine stupidity and laziness than intelligence and overzealousness, so the chances of getting arrested "unjustly" are quite slim. Of course, if someone decides it's their god given right to announce to the world "I've got a knife" by carrying it so everyone can see it, then all bets are off. Just because something is not specifically illegal does not preclude it from being a display of poor judgment.

[peacefuljeffrey]

There is a curious mindset here that locking folders are illegal in the UK. This is NOT true.

Banned and illegal are very different from needing a "reasonable reason for carry".

I like British people, and Britain, and British culture, for the most part.
In fact, before I became aware of the socio-political realities of modern-day Britain, I guess you could've called me an Anglophile. (And a huge Monty Python fan.)

It's the laws and the social attitudes toward crime and criminality and criminals that I deplore. From over here in the U.S., it honest to god looks like you people are letting the inmates run the asylum. It wasn't too long ago that the police refused to release photos of two dangerous criminals who walked out of some sort of work-release residence, for fear that doing so would violate their privacy! (This made the news.)

General, what I take issue with is the very idea that in order to carry a knife that is designed to maximize the safety of the user, you have to be able to explain to the police why you "need" it.

My answer would be, "I need this knife so that I don't risk cutting my fingers off during use of the knife." And yeah, I'd probably get in trouble with the law after that. And being that I'm not a violent criminal, nor a menace to society, I'd probably have the book thrown at me and they'd clear a cell for me by springing a guy who beat up old ladies, because at least he had the decency to do so bare-knuckled instead of using a locking-bladed knife!

Something is very very wrong with the thinking in the U.K. I'm not Brit-bashing, I'm stating what has been very clear to most of us for quite some time.

Cockroach, I apologize for seeming to jump on your case. You provided an eloquent rebuttal and it satisfied me.

I wish that you didn't have to live under the inane laws that govern you over there.

-PJ

[dialex]

...There is a curious mindset here that locking folders are illegal in the UK. This is NOT true.

Huh? How come? I thought I heard everyone complaining about that? :confused:

[Vincent]

While I try my best to respect the laws of my homeland, if knives were to be banned. I think I would still collect and carry daily. The Government really has no right to take away the right for me to have a knife, i find it to be a necessity.

So screw them, is what I say.

[The General]

Huh? How come? I thought I heard everyone complaining about that? :confused:

We have to provide a "reasonable reason" for carrying a locking folder or fixed blade in a public place.

For work or outdoor activities such as camping are recognised and fully accepted reasons.

We Brits like the UKPK as it simply does not require the user to provide ANY reason for carry. Its a sub 3" non locking folder. Therefore if you get stopped and hassled, you are on solid ground.

There is a great deal of concern in the UK about crazy laws, but ultimately, the general public are sheep and as you guys have found we are in the minority where knife attitudes are concerned.

To 99% of the populace, we are the worrying 1% who like things like knives and guns. We are the ones to watch, the ones to fear.

So say the press, so say the powers that be... :rolleyes:

Look at the restrictions you guys have had to endure post 9/11 and I think you will find these buggers are sneaking in anti liberty legislation the whole world over. Its not a UK, USA or any other country specific problem, its happening ALL over.

I think Sal has seen the reality of the focus being brought to bear on knife ownership and carry all over the world. To most its simply not acceptable to carry a knife under almost any circumstances. Till they want to open something or cut something etc etc.

We are I feel united as Spyderholics the world over that none of us want these crazy laws, but "they" are not leaving any of us alone and will continue to press.

What is the average person to do? Fight it in the courts, yes we have tried that. Rise up? What? We are the very much minority on this issue. Vote someone else in? All Parties seem to want to clamp down. No, I am afraid that if individuals we want to live in a democratic society we have two choices, we obey or we don't. If we don't we take the risks that, that will entail.

I think the the UK, there is something of a "not again" attitude when specifically Americans talk about "fighting back" and "it won't happen to us". The world has changed a lot since your forefathers bravely fought for your freedoms against British rule. The reality with increased gun control (try getting a class 3 firearm in most States or a CCP in NYC) as well ought to show you guys that the individual can't simply cause a revolution. The majority need to want it and knife rights will not be a majority concern unless you are talking about the concerns of NKP who just don't like knives and knife people. There is a **** of a lot of conditioning to break here.

I promise I am not trying to offend anyone here.

[UK KEN]

A wise friend of mine said recently...."There are laws for which I have a great deal of respect, and others for which I have none what-so-ever".

As far as I am concerned the UK locking knife regulations and how they came about are covered well by the later part of his statement. :)

Regards, Ken

[peacefuljeffrey]

While I try my best to respect the laws of my homeland, if knives were to be banned. I think I would still collect and carry daily. The Government really has no right to take away the right for me to have a knife, i find it to be a necessity.

So screw them, is what I say.

+1. Same here.

-PJ

[peacefuljeffrey]

We have to provide a "reasonable reason" for carrying a locking folder or fixed blade in a public place.

For work or outdoor activities such as camping are recognised and fully accepted reasons.

We Brits like the UKPK as it simply does not require the user to provide ANY reason for carry. Its a sub 3" non locking folder. Therefore if you get stopped and hassled, you are on solid ground.

I disagree: you're not on "solid ground" there at all.

What happens when the government there simply decides that no longer are you allowed to carry some arbitrarily exempted "don't-have-to-have-a-reason-for-this-kind" of knife?

Seriously. They already have the authority to declare that you can't have a lockback knife without a "reason" -- and I'm confident that "because I might need or wish to cut something with the security that my knife won't fold onto my fingers" doesn't cut it with them as a reason. Why is it so far-fetched to think that they may one day just say that you can't have a knife period without a "reason?

The only thing stopping your government from decreeing that, it is clear, is your government. They could do it any time they want to.