[quote="sal"]OK Ken, I'm listening.
What exactly makes it a "bushcraft" knife?
What are the specifics]
Sal
Hello, I’m glad that this post got your attention. I am excited at the idea of you making a Bushcraft knife. :cool:
“Bushcraft has become a term used to describe planned wanderings in semi-controlled circumstances with preferred kit to hand while embarking on a pleasurable and (hopefully) educational and satisfactory experience.” A quote from the British Blades Forum.
A perfect Bushcraft knife for me shouldn’t be too heavy or large. The blade should be no longer that 4 1/2" being made with a squared back edge section to use for striking a fire steel. I have found that a thin blade 1/8" (Like the Moran is very capable but maybe 3/16 wide would be perfect. The handle should not be too thin or squared so that it is uncomfortable in the hand. It should be great if it came with a nice wooden handle, curly birch or similar with a good sized lanyard hole.
I would prefer that there was no guard as this can get in the way. A Kydex sheath would be better, as there is less water retention, (if possible incorporating a fire steel holder!).
I enjoy using a knife outdoors and a Bushcraft knife needs to be able to do the following:
Working with wood, including using a baton (splitting wood for use as kindling), some fine carving on both seasoned and green wood (whittling triggers for traps). Carving tools and eating utensils. Making small holes in wood, for some shelter construction, and some fire starting techniques.
Preparing food, including dressing fish and game.
Produce a good shower of sparks from a fire steel.
The knife should be easy to sharpen in the field but still be capable of retaining a sharp cutting edge for a good period of time. Many users like a Scandi type grind, but I prefer a flat grind for ease of sharpening. Less metal removal is needed with each sharpening, it therefore takes less time.
I hope that this helps. I'm sure that others will chime in with their ideas. :D
Cheers, Ken
Spyderco Bushcraft Knife
Great!
About the handle, it would need to be comfortable in normal forward grip and reverse forward grip. The Temperance handle is very comfortable in those grips.
I would prefer full tang, either tapered or drilled to reduce weight.
Blade height about 1", with the tip at 1/4" below the spine, to create a bit more belly then a symetrical spear point. Tip would need to be pretty strong. Stronger then a Manix for example. It's not uncommon to hammer a knife in a small (dead) tree to 'weaken' it so it's easier to break.
A common task of a 'bushcrafter' is to make a fire drill, which involves prying out some wood, so again a strong tip is needed. Not as thick as for example on a Bob Lum Tanto, but not as thin as on a Manix.
The squared spine should really be 'sharp'. A Fallkniven F1 throws way more sparks from a firesteel then for example a :spyder: Manix or your average Mora knife.
3/16" is a bit wide for me, that's almost 5mm. 4mm would be OK
For ease of cutting and rust prevention, how about a mirror polish?
A 4" blade (usable edge), with a 1/2" semi choil and a 4.5" handle would about be an ideal size.
More later :D
About the handle, it would need to be comfortable in normal forward grip and reverse forward grip. The Temperance handle is very comfortable in those grips.
I would prefer full tang, either tapered or drilled to reduce weight.
Blade height about 1", with the tip at 1/4" below the spine, to create a bit more belly then a symetrical spear point. Tip would need to be pretty strong. Stronger then a Manix for example. It's not uncommon to hammer a knife in a small (dead) tree to 'weaken' it so it's easier to break.
A common task of a 'bushcrafter' is to make a fire drill, which involves prying out some wood, so again a strong tip is needed. Not as thick as for example on a Bob Lum Tanto, but not as thin as on a Manix.
The squared spine should really be 'sharp'. A Fallkniven F1 throws way more sparks from a firesteel then for example a :spyder: Manix or your average Mora knife.
3/16" is a bit wide for me, that's almost 5mm. 4mm would be OK
For ease of cutting and rust prevention, how about a mirror polish?
A 4" blade (usable edge), with a 1/2" semi choil and a 4.5" handle would about be an ideal size.
More later :D
I havent thrown sparks with H-1, but VG-10 is good. Dont know about the "softness" of H-1 being hammered and all, I mainly use it for light/medium cutting duty. It does that all right.
Plusside of H-1: rust-free, easy to sharpen.
Has anyone here used H-1 "to the extreme" in the outdoors ? And I dont mean hammering the knife in a tree and stand on it. That's NOT good knife-craft, and shouldnt be done anyway IMHO.
Plusside of H-1: rust-free, easy to sharpen.
Has anyone here used H-1 "to the extreme" in the outdoors ? And I dont mean hammering the knife in a tree and stand on it. That's NOT good knife-craft, and shouldnt be done anyway IMHO.
I think this is a great idea, Ken and Sal.
I would, however, like to point out that the Scandi- grind might be better, especially if made in a spearpoint blade.
There should also be a sheath incorporating a firesteel- holder.
I agree that the blade should be around the 4 1/2" as suggested.
It should also have a handle that is shaped so that it fills the hand to an extent, to make up for the lack of guard.
I would, however, like to point out that the Scandi- grind might be better, especially if made in a spearpoint blade.
There should also be a sheath incorporating a firesteel- holder.
I agree that the blade should be around the 4 1/2" as suggested.
It should also have a handle that is shaped so that it fills the hand to an extent, to make up for the lack of guard.
-
The Deacon
- Member
- Posts: 25717
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Upstate SC, USA
- Contact:
Couple questions Ken.
First, would there be a market in the UK for a knife with anything other than an exact replica of the Ray Mears Woodlore blade? As an example, how do you think a Bob Loveless style drop point hunter would be regarded? My impression from visiting BritishBlades is that the Mears design is embraced in the UK with almost religious fervor and that any other shape / size / grind would be either ignored or trashed. Even something as minor as the addition of a Spanish notch seems to be grounds for them to consider a knife inferior to the Woodlore. The rest of Europe does seem considerably more open minded when it comes to designs suitable for that purpose.
Also, the Ray Mears Woodlore you showed is quite expensive, and he does appear to still be offering a bare blade at roughly only slightly below the "street price" you suggest for a Spyderco bushcraft knife. Would he go for a deal that would appear to make the bare blade seem like a poor choice? On top of that, he offers a very inexpensive version that would seem, at least to someone not at all familiar with the ins and outs of bushcraft, to be the best choice for those just starting out. Again, how much would that limit the market for a Spyderco version? And, finally, at least to date, Spyderco has been extremely reluctant to use anything but stainless steel, and none of the Ray Mears offering seem to use it. Again, would this fact alone be sufficient to cause the knife to be dismissed by the UK bushcraft community?
First, would there be a market in the UK for a knife with anything other than an exact replica of the Ray Mears Woodlore blade? As an example, how do you think a Bob Loveless style drop point hunter would be regarded? My impression from visiting BritishBlades is that the Mears design is embraced in the UK with almost religious fervor and that any other shape / size / grind would be either ignored or trashed. Even something as minor as the addition of a Spanish notch seems to be grounds for them to consider a knife inferior to the Woodlore. The rest of Europe does seem considerably more open minded when it comes to designs suitable for that purpose.
Also, the Ray Mears Woodlore you showed is quite expensive, and he does appear to still be offering a bare blade at roughly only slightly below the "street price" you suggest for a Spyderco bushcraft knife. Would he go for a deal that would appear to make the bare blade seem like a poor choice? On top of that, he offers a very inexpensive version that would seem, at least to someone not at all familiar with the ins and outs of bushcraft, to be the best choice for those just starting out. Again, how much would that limit the market for a Spyderco version? And, finally, at least to date, Spyderco has been extremely reluctant to use anything but stainless steel, and none of the Ray Mears offering seem to use it. Again, would this fact alone be sufficient to cause the knife to be dismissed by the UK bushcraft community?
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
I don't hang out here that often so I'm not sure how many of you will know me, those who go on british blades know me as Andy.
I have a few ideas that may be useful
firstly I think you may want to look at what people don't like about the current knives on the market, the woodlore uses 4mm thick steel and the F1 uses 4.5mm thick steel and many people find this a tad too thick and would prefer 3mm thick steel. Also a lot of people want a blade which is a bit shorter then the woodlore so 100mm long blade might be good option. as far as blade grinds go my favorite outdoor knife is a scandi which has a slightly hollow ground blade which I treat like they were flats. This means I don't have to remove as much steel as I would with a flat beveled scandi grind but stil means it's easy to control the sharpening.
I'm a fan of the section sticking out of the handle of the F1 and the bearclaw field knife has a butt cap to help crush nuts and things. I also like the flair at the end of the handle on the F1 and think that something similar should be there on any bushcraft knife spyderco make. I do think that the handle should be a bit fatter then the F1 is though and many people complain about how thin the handle on the F1 is.
IMO the best option for a spyderco "bushcraft" knife would be one which uses the materials spyderco already uses a lot, VG10 would be a good option but s30v might get some attention as it's considered one up from vg10 and that might make people go for that instead of the fallkniven. The handle should be grippy and the G10 used on the UKPK would be ideal. This would also allow for easy cleaning which is very important. The handle should be hand filling but not to big and be designed to stop the hand sliding foward without the use of a addtional guard (handle should not drop more then a few mm lower then the cutting edge of the knife). I'd go for a full tang and might consider having a couple of mm sticking out the end of the handle. The ideal blade depth imo would be 25mm-30mm with a drop point format (more drop then a f1 please)
I do infact have designs already but you may have noticed that
I have a few ideas that may be useful
firstly I think you may want to look at what people don't like about the current knives on the market, the woodlore uses 4mm thick steel and the F1 uses 4.5mm thick steel and many people find this a tad too thick and would prefer 3mm thick steel. Also a lot of people want a blade which is a bit shorter then the woodlore so 100mm long blade might be good option. as far as blade grinds go my favorite outdoor knife is a scandi which has a slightly hollow ground blade which I treat like they were flats. This means I don't have to remove as much steel as I would with a flat beveled scandi grind but stil means it's easy to control the sharpening.
I'm a fan of the section sticking out of the handle of the F1 and the bearclaw field knife has a butt cap to help crush nuts and things. I also like the flair at the end of the handle on the F1 and think that something similar should be there on any bushcraft knife spyderco make. I do think that the handle should be a bit fatter then the F1 is though and many people complain about how thin the handle on the F1 is.
IMO the best option for a spyderco "bushcraft" knife would be one which uses the materials spyderco already uses a lot, VG10 would be a good option but s30v might get some attention as it's considered one up from vg10 and that might make people go for that instead of the fallkniven. The handle should be grippy and the G10 used on the UKPK would be ideal. This would also allow for easy cleaning which is very important. The handle should be hand filling but not to big and be designed to stop the hand sliding foward without the use of a addtional guard (handle should not drop more then a few mm lower then the cutting edge of the knife). I'd go for a full tang and might consider having a couple of mm sticking out the end of the handle. The ideal blade depth imo would be 25mm-30mm with a drop point format (more drop then a f1 please)
I do infact have designs already but you may have noticed that
The woodlore is a popular knife no doubt but i think you will find the F1 is also widely used and accepted, i think you will find it in equal if not grater numbers than the woodlore.. The NS was also embraced by many, yes it did receive some bad comments on size and the project didn’t go completely smoothly but there are still a number of people getting on very well with them as bushcraft knives.
i think the F1 and the woodlore have become extremely popular as 1:they are well publicised (a lot of bushcrafters are not heavily involved in the knife world so alternatives may not be well know, especially true in the case of the woodlore)
2: they are very good at what they do! (nothing ever got popular by being bad at its job)
For me, at least, a bushcraft knife is a woodworking/carving knife first and foremost and it must be extremely good at these tasks, it is anything else e.g. butchering and skinning second to this though it must be passable for these tasks also.
I think this is where the 'bushcraft' knife differs from the general outdoors/hunting knives.
When considering grind/steel I’m not sure what is best in all honesty.. the grind must obviously hold a good sharp edge suitable for its tasks (some would say the convex edge is not ideal for woodworking) but must also be relatively easy to sharpen in the field..
The knife should obviously stand up to prolonged "hard use", my personal feeling is the woodlore is overkill on thickness others my feel it warranted. Look for example in the frosts mora, its somewhat thinner and I know many of these knives which are extremely hard!
i like the ideas so far, 'A 4" blade (usable edge), with a 1/2" semi choil and a 4.5" handle would about be an ideal size.' dose sound good to me, perhaps consider a slightly shorter overall blade length 3-4 ".
for handles micarta is good material and excepted by many, but wood (where it doesn’t compromise performance) is obviously favourable to the whole bushcraft/woodcraft idea, I think these are really the only two options.
Halfneck mentioned Charles May and i think he and Gene Ingram are turning out a style of knife which could lend its self well to bushcraft use and are worth using for example.
This is an exciting project well done to Sal for listening and to Ken for getting the ball rolling
:spyder: :cool:
i think the F1 and the woodlore have become extremely popular as 1:they are well publicised (a lot of bushcrafters are not heavily involved in the knife world so alternatives may not be well know, especially true in the case of the woodlore)
2: they are very good at what they do! (nothing ever got popular by being bad at its job)
For me, at least, a bushcraft knife is a woodworking/carving knife first and foremost and it must be extremely good at these tasks, it is anything else e.g. butchering and skinning second to this though it must be passable for these tasks also.
I think this is where the 'bushcraft' knife differs from the general outdoors/hunting knives.
When considering grind/steel I’m not sure what is best in all honesty.. the grind must obviously hold a good sharp edge suitable for its tasks (some would say the convex edge is not ideal for woodworking) but must also be relatively easy to sharpen in the field..
The knife should obviously stand up to prolonged "hard use", my personal feeling is the woodlore is overkill on thickness others my feel it warranted. Look for example in the frosts mora, its somewhat thinner and I know many of these knives which are extremely hard!
i like the ideas so far, 'A 4" blade (usable edge), with a 1/2" semi choil and a 4.5" handle would about be an ideal size.' dose sound good to me, perhaps consider a slightly shorter overall blade length 3-4 ".
for handles micarta is good material and excepted by many, but wood (where it doesn’t compromise performance) is obviously favourable to the whole bushcraft/woodcraft idea, I think these are really the only two options.
Halfneck mentioned Charles May and i think he and Gene Ingram are turning out a style of knife which could lend its self well to bushcraft use and are worth using for example.
This is an exciting project well done to Sal for listening and to Ken for getting the ball rolling
:spyder: :cool:
Bushcraft Knife
Paul
I understand your concerns about how a different Bushcraft knife would be received. It is true that Ray Mears does have a pretty huge following in the UK. The media can be a powerful force. He recommended this particular design following 12 years of trying most other makes and blade configurations. It is a knife that has a "cult" following but even so, if a group of knife users are given an opportunity to have a say in the design of a knife to suit perfectly their needs surely the resulting product will be accepted.
The blade option offered by Mr. Mears is good but it has to be finished and not all users have the skills to do the job well. Paul, there are always cheaper options out there but personally I prefer quality.
The O1 steel used in the Woodlore is great by any standards but how much different is it in use to VG-10?
The knife would sell based on its design, performance, price, availability and the reputation of the manufacturer. :) I don't honestly believe that a Bushcraft knife made by Spyderco could be "dismissed" by any knowledgeable knife user.
Cheers, Ken
I understand your concerns about how a different Bushcraft knife would be received. It is true that Ray Mears does have a pretty huge following in the UK. The media can be a powerful force. He recommended this particular design following 12 years of trying most other makes and blade configurations. It is a knife that has a "cult" following but even so, if a group of knife users are given an opportunity to have a say in the design of a knife to suit perfectly their needs surely the resulting product will be accepted.
The blade option offered by Mr. Mears is good but it has to be finished and not all users have the skills to do the job well. Paul, there are always cheaper options out there but personally I prefer quality.
The O1 steel used in the Woodlore is great by any standards but how much different is it in use to VG-10?
The knife would sell based on its design, performance, price, availability and the reputation of the manufacturer. :) I don't honestly believe that a Bushcraft knife made by Spyderco could be "dismissed" by any knowledgeable knife user.
Cheers, Ken
I agree with Ken.UK KEN wrote: The knife would sell based on its design, performance, price, availability and the reputation of the manufacturer. :) I don't honestly believe that a Bushcraft knife made by Spyderco could be "dismissed" by any knowledgeable knife user.
Cheers, Ken
Why go 'back to the drawing board' when there is already a proven design that is accepted and sells. Lets have a Spyderco Bushcraft knife first, THEN we can start evolving it later :D
I would add that I think whatever the design, a wooden handle/scales is a must.
But whatever, I would buy a Spyderco Bushcraft knife :D
:spyder:#86
-
The General
- Member
- Posts: 535
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Ray Mears does not like stainless steel in his bushcraft knives. The first Woodlore proto was in D2 IIRC and Ray could not get on with this steel.
O1 is ok... but I think Sal might agree with me that there are many stainless steels that perform! If it has to be carbon steel, go with A2.
If it were me, I would snag the rights to make the "production" Woodlore and watch the cash flow in! Wil/Sword could not meet the demand for these knives.
Otherwise... it will just be another bushcrafter knife and there are no shortages of those! I will have a think about what I would want in a Spyderco knife, but off the top of my head...
Stainless steel (VG10) Carbon Steel (A2 or CPM 3V)
Convex blade
Wooden handle (stable)
Squared spine for firesteel sparks
Blade length no more than 4.5"
4mm thickness spine
O1 is ok... but I think Sal might agree with me that there are many stainless steels that perform! If it has to be carbon steel, go with A2.
If it were me, I would snag the rights to make the "production" Woodlore and watch the cash flow in! Wil/Sword could not meet the demand for these knives.
Otherwise... it will just be another bushcrafter knife and there are no shortages of those! I will have a think about what I would want in a Spyderco knife, but off the top of my head...
Stainless steel (VG10) Carbon Steel (A2 or CPM 3V)
Convex blade
Wooden handle (stable)
Squared spine for firesteel sparks
Blade length no more than 4.5"
4mm thickness spine
My real name is Wayne :D
Andy, If I'm not mistaken, no drop = Wharncliffe, and full droppoint is Fallkniven H1. 50/50 drop is spearpoint. That way, the F1 has more 'drop' then the Woodlore. I would prefer in between. (Classic-Sebenza blade shape style)Andy_L wrote:I don't hang out here that often so I'm not sure how many of you will know me, those who go on british blades know me as Andy.
I have a few ideas that may be useful
firstly I think you may want to look at what people don't like about the current knives on the market, the woodlore uses 4mm thick steel and the F1 uses 4.5mm thick steel and many people find this a tad too thick and would prefer 3mm thick steel. Also a lot of people want a blade which is a bit shorter then the woodlore so 100mm long blade might be good option. as far as blade grinds go my favorite outdoor knife is a scandi which has a slightly hollow ground blade which I treat like they were flats. This means I don't have to remove as much steel as I would with a flat beveled scandi grind but stil means it's easy to control the sharpening.
I'm a fan of the section sticking out of the handle of the F1 and the bearclaw field knife has a butt cap to help crush nuts and things. I also like the flair at the end of the handle on the F1 and think that something similar should be there on any bushcraft knife spyderco make. I do think that the handle should be a bit fatter then the F1 is though and many people complain about how thin the handle on the F1 is.
IMO the best option for a spyderco "bushcraft" knife would be one which uses the materials spyderco already uses a lot, VG10 would be a good option but s30v might get some attention as it's considered one up from vg10 and that might make people go for that instead of the fallkniven. The handle should be grippy and the G10 used on the UKPK would be ideal. This would also allow for easy cleaning which is very important. The handle should be hand filling but not to big and be designed to stop the hand sliding foward without the use of a addtional guard (handle should not drop more then a few mm lower then the cutting edge of the knife). I'd go for a full tang and might consider having a couple of mm sticking out the end of the handle. The ideal blade depth imo would be 25mm-30mm with a drop point format (more drop then a f1 please)
I do infact have designs already but you may have noticed that
About G-10, I think both the knife and sheath should be 'natural' materials (wood & leather). I know that might not be optimal from a performance point of view, but it is in the spirit of bushcraft (to me anyway...)
I think it would be worthy to see what Spyderco can improve and/or optimize in a Bushcraft knife. Just copying the Woodlore design would be a shame IMHO, not that I won't buy any...just a missed oppertunity...Effigy wrote:I agree with Ken.
Why go 'back to the drawing board' when there is already a proven design that is accepted and sells. Lets have a Spyderco Bushcraft knife first, THEN we can start evolving it later :D
I would add that I think whatever the design, a wooden handle/scales is a must.
But whatever, I would buy a Spyderco Bushcraft knife :D
Ted, I think you are right - its just that I would rather see a Spyderco Bushcraft knife NOW, than wait for a couple of years and find that the opportunity has been missed altogether! :eek:Ted wrote:I think it would be worthy to see what Spyderco can improve and/or optimize in a Bushcraft knife. Just copying the Woodlore design would be a shame IMHO, not that I won't buy any...just a missed oppertunity...
Who knows, if Spyderco could get in quick, then the door is opened for more radical designs in the future. :D
:spyder:#86
The drop is dropping away from the spine (at least the way I've always read it)Ted wrote:Andy, If I'm not mistaken, no drop = Wharncliffe, and full droppoint is Fallkniven H1. 50/50 drop is spearpoint. That way, the F1 has more 'drop' then the Woodlore. I would prefer in between. (Classic-Sebenza blade shape style)
that way a wharncliffe would be full drop and H1 would be no drop (or very little)
Bushcraft Forum
Sal
It has been suggested over on BB that it might be an idea to talk to the people over on the Bushcraft UK Forum to find out exactly what they would like to see in a knife.
I am doing that right now. :D
Ken
It has been suggested over on BB that it might be an idea to talk to the people over on the Bushcraft UK Forum to find out exactly what they would like to see in a knife.
I am doing that right now. :D
Ken
OK - interesting point of view. I can't tell you which way is right or wrong, doesn't really matter since we both now know what we're talking about :)Andy_L wrote:The drop is dropping away from the spine (at least the way I've always read it)
that way a wharncliffe would be full drop and H1 would be no drop (or very little)