Mule Team flipping

[akaAK]

I came into the Mule project later than most here, but have been doing my best to find and secure older discontinued models on the secondary market for months and months. I am not one to pay retail for something unless I really want it. The Mules although a great concept and the best opportunity I have ever experienced to try these great steels and educate myself. Once I caught up to the current models I have purchased every one that has come available at the SFO. I have only purchased one of each unless I planned to give the spare to someone (this happened with the Elmax and the XHP).

I have read through 100+ posts from many of my fellow forum members and many posts offer great solutions, most of which I have no problem with. I would not be opposed to a one per customer limit to allow more users to purchase and to make it more difficult for the flippers to get the (requiring double the effort). I like the ideal of personalization at an added cost to the end user. "This is my knife, there are many like it, but this one is mine!" Most of the pre-orders I have been able to sign up for have been long term. Those situations only required me to pay a deposit, yet I would gladly have paid the full amount to ensure I had the funds when the time came to pay in full 3 months or more later. I would gladly pay in full to secure one Mule team. Other ideas like credit card tracking, address tracking, IP tracking are all ideas I would entertain hearing. As some have stated, flippers are not a dying they are multiplying. I don't think this issue needs to be addressed with one of the suggestions in this thread, but with multiples. If a user here cares enough to post a well thought out collection of ideas in this thread, they should be willing to go through the extra effort for their fellow knife brethren.

So in summary, I would be willing to Pay in FULL, months in advance, with no projected completion date, for a Mule that would be laser etched with either my name or user name or both at a cost of say $8-$10 above the cost of the Mule. In addition, should Spyderco decide to increase the cost of the Mules to allow them to employ a person that can more carefully police the pre-orders I would have no problem to ensure fewer of these over-priced, inflated Mule flips appear less and less on the secondary market. I really look forward to hearing what Sal, Eric and crew have to say about the planned action to curb these types of activities from happening. Let's all join it to try to stop the greed.

I don't have an issue with flippers but it does bother me when people step on others generosity, which is to be honest what this is from Sal. The above is how I would approach this. 100 percent paid up front, extra for an engraved name ( this could be anything but does make it traceable by spyderco). Two year lead time so the appropriate amount of steel can be sourced and the price can be raised to address inflationary pressures. You get the option to drop out on the price increase.

Even this will not stop the determined and I will guarantee some of these will be flipped.

[FCM415]

They're not gonna do second runs of a knife that isn't even a standard release. Spyderco is a small company by design... Production slots are very tight... Reopening a closed Mule while the next two Mules are in line is not gonna happen. They can't even squeeze in a K390 Military till 2015-16... AND THE S110v had to be moved to Taiwan... The next Phil Wilson Collab cant even get a slot....It is not likely to happen. Backup everything else and for what? A program that is more out of generosity than profit?

A lot of these ideas while may work are not feasible because it adds a significant strain on SFO. Let's not make this "gift" of a program even more a burden... for a knife that is considered a not for profit program, why jump through complicated hoops, pay for the extra man power...Guess what, these processes will raise the price ALSO, what you are trying to avoid.

[klug932000]

I love the engraved name idea, even if it costs a bit more its personalized and mine or a even better gift.

[Officer Gigglez]

I'm not actually sure. Maybe increase production to reduce demand and rarity, which would in turn remove flipping.

[jvarn81]

^^^^^^ What he said, x1000.

Why make things worse for those who are not flipping for profit?
Also - why make people deface their own knives with etchings? I for one don't want to be treated like an elementary school kid who needs their name sewn into their clothing. What if I want to dress one up and give it to a special loved one - with my name on it?
Doesn't make sense. Then ONLY thing that makes sense is the supply/demand model of the free market. Deflate the 2ndry market prices by increasing the supply - if the price goes up marginally for a 2nd run simply because the economies of scale aren't there to sell a 2nd run of 400-500 at the same price as an initial run of 1000 - then so be it. $110 for a 2nd run instead of $90 for a first is still much preferable to double that or more on the 2ndry market for high demand blades.

Too many people saying that a 2nd pre-ordered, 25% down non-refundable run is not feasible. How do they know? I don't ......and I am a pretty bright guy myself. The only person who knows whether this approach is feasible are the number crunchers working for Spyderco.

If they feel it isn't feasible then - so be it.....look for another solution (that is non-punishing to Spyderco collectors) or live with the existing problem which is still not as bad as punishing ourselves with higher prices and purchase limits of one - which the poster to which I've replied has stated so succinctly and accurately.

Agreed.

[DougC-3]

Thanks everybody for so earnestly expressing your opinions on this... a lot of good ideas. It's been a hoot to read. The solution may be a lot simpler than a lot of people think.

I think the pre-order solution, suggested by many in the 124 posts above, could effectively solve this problem. I think the orders should be paid in full, or at least at 25% non-refundable in advance, whatever the Spydie-accountants require to insure solvency. The orders would be taken long in advance of production, to allow Spyderco to accurately gauge the number to produce and to ensure that everybody who wants one or two has an opportunity to buy them. The management of course could best predict how many units should be made in excess of the pre-orders, and these extras, if any, could be offered for sale at the time the orders are filled.

If a few flippers infiltrate the pre-orders and buy some, SO WHAT? We just insured that all the "deserving" people got one. If some rich collector wants to pay a flipper's price it doesn't keep the legitimate orderers from getting theirs! Flippers might soon realize that when everybody who wants one has it, their market is drastically reduced.

Some people seem to be losing sight of the fact that the problem caused by flippers, as I understand it at least, is simply that they keep a lot of earnest spydie fans from getting the knives they love and deserve at the intended prices. That's our goal here -- not to stamp out the evil flippers Spyderco does not have an army of agents to track down serial numbers, and what would they do if they did? Is there actually some law against buying more than the limit? And if so, who has the time and money to prosecute the offenders :confused:

[ManixFan]

They're not gonna do second runs of a knife that isn't even a standard release. Spyderco is a small company by design....

But that is one idea that would solve the problem. Sal asked for ideas.....people other than myself have also proposed this solution. While it might not be the approach you would take if you were running the company ......far be it for anyone else to state what Spyderco would or wouldn't do - unless your last name is Glesser.

I've given my more than two cents worth and the advice was free and only provided because it was solicited. I am very happy with getting my first mules - I will never be able to get a prior high demand mule simple because I can't justify to myself the expense of paying 200-300 just for a blank that will cost me another $150 to dress up the way I want it to look. If there were a re-release then I would purchase a few past releases.

I know that some people are not willing to admit it - but the idea of a re-release of a coveted MT they they already own only offends them because they feel that it devalues their current MT or lessens the rarity or exclusivity of being one of the few who have an earlier high demand mule. Not everyone opposing a re-release of high demand hard to find expensive MT's has such a selfish motive but there are also those that already having their own MT's would prefer to direct Spyderco's resources towards efforts that they want and don't already have and who cares about those that would love a re-released MT.

As Douglas Adams once put it in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series........there is nothing so invisible as "somebody else's problem"

If a re-release is economically feasible......and only Spyderco knows if it is or not .....then that would go a long ways to thwarting the "flippers" out there. I would think that those most opposed to re-releases (if economically feasible) could also potentially be those same people who are flipping them for profit or having bought several are holding on to them and are stashing them purely as an investment and don't want their "investment" devalued. A shame when so so many people want these past high demand blades as users.

I don't mean to offend others but I believe that when Sal was looking for ideas....(and I don't presume to speak for him) .....but it was my impression that it was the ideas that he was looking for - not people's argument's why the ideas of others are not feasible.

In the end he will read though all of these posts and implement the ideas that he feels he wants to. Or, if nothing seems to be a realistic solution then we live with the current situation and hope that maybe slightly increased production runs of high demand steels helps with the problem.

That's my last opinion on the topic - unless I think of a completely new idea. Otherwise any further postings would end up simply consisting of defending my ideas or deriding the ideas of others - which if I get in a bad mood or feel attacked myself might be a negative outcome that I might resort to .....and then feel silly and sheepish about afterward. A mandatory blade etching of my name or username sounds like a horrible idea to me and would just be something that I would have to have removed later on. Others think its a fantastic idea - but these people could always do their own engraving after the fact if they wanted to take the effort to do so.

Anyways.........my intention was not to offend and if anybody is offended by my reply and wants to take a piece out of me then that's fine - I won't respond and contribute to the devolution of a great conversation. I don't intend to deride the suggestion of an etched blade.....but for me that would just be defacing the MT blade at an extra expense to Spyderco.

I truly hope that I haven't offended, But I would suggest that we put our own ideas out there and refrain from slamming the ideas of others. I only spoke out against the etching idea so vociferously because I would like to buy future mules and would hate to have to take the extra step of grinding such an etching off because it irritated me having it there.

In the end it is not our decision anyways and slamming the ideas of others won't make Spyderco consider the idea any less just because you aren't sold on it - if in the end it is something that they feel will work.

[FCM415]

You have a excellent point there DougC3. Preordering would ensure that everyone that wants one gets one.

Manix, this is a great discussion and fully appreciate your input.

[gaj999]

The ONLY thing that makes sense is the supply/demand model of the free market. Deflate the 2ndry market prices by increasing the supply

If this is true, then we should expect the price of the Mules to increase substantially. Asking Spyderco to devote even more of it's production to a profitless line is asking a lot. What's the right price? I don't know. Doubling the price sounds about right. I'd think that might put profit somewhere near the profit on other lines. Then there would be no real incentive for production to be limited at all. No extra cost to Spyderco. I personally hope that your claim is not true and that we can continue to get screaming deals on hot steels, but I'm open to the idea that I'm thinking rather wishfully ...

Gordon

[ManixFan]

You have a excellent point there DougC3. Preordering would ensure that everyone that wants one gets one.

Manix, this is a great discussion and fully appreciate your input.

Thanks.......FCM415

I have to admit that part of the reason that I am advocating re-releases is because as someone who has just purchased their first mule team I would love to purchase a couple of the prior MT's and the only way that this would happen for me is through a re-release.

The scarcity factor is a little appealing to myself as well since I do like the fact that my 2013 Forum knife is a little extra special since no others are being made. That being said - it will remain NIB - which is a shame for such a beautiful little knife. But then again - in this particular case I was able to use my 2nd Forum Knife that I would never have spent the $270+ on to trade for another and also put a hard to get knife into the hands of a collector that had doubles of another special knife. I won't lose out on the experience of having such a knife to use solely because it is being offered in CF as a regular production knife as well which I have on pre-order.

When I receive it the CF S110V Native5 will become my work knife as I work in an office scenario where although not a huge blade - the new blue CF Domino I have might be too intimidating to others partly because of its slightly larger size and also because of how quickly and noisily it snaps out when using the flipper.

Did I mention before what a beautiful knife the blue CF Domino was? The original scales put me off a bit - even though everything else was the same - but these new blue CF scales? Wow....gorgeous! (Sprint run in S110V - pretty please).

[jtoler_9]

I realize my point of view seems to make me unpopular, but I have my own thoughts on the subject.
Here goes nothing.
I think the quickest fix for the secondary market is to stop watching it. Seriously. I can't help but feel all the debate and controversy helps fuel secondary market activity. After all bad publicity is still publicity. I say let the secondary market take care of itself. Stay focused on the core business by making amazing an innovative products. What harm is flipping doing to the Mule Team project really? I thought the point of the Mule team project was to create a test bed for new steel. If that's true, then doesn't every person buying more than 1 mule do the same damage to the project? What about the people buying them to put handles on them and keep them in a box or on display? How are they helping test new steel? Truthfully, I have seen only a small number of folks actually testing these things and providing feedback here. The rest of us are just along for the ride.
To answer Sal's question, the engraving name idea, I think is the best one that was shared so far. But I don't know that you can make a big enough impact on secondary market activity overall. People all over seem eager to lay down more for your products than you are currently charging.

[Fred Sanford]

Limit a MT purchase to someone who is a member of this forum and has been for at least a year. Associate the forum name with their real name. Allow one purchase. Limit that purchase to 1 knife. Once you buy you cannot buy again. Laser etch the forum name into their blade.

[Bill1170]

Limit a MT purchase to someone who is a member of this forum and has been for at least a year. Associate the forum name with their real name. Allow one purchase. Limit that purchase to 1 knife. Once you buy you cannot buy again. Laser etch the forum name into their blade.

I like David's ideas. As Yablanowitz said, "Honor systems don't work on people who have no honor."

[buckthorn]

Allow each customer to purchase THREE knives. Then, those of us who don't like flipping can keep one or two, and put the second and/or third on Ebay at our exact cost plus fees and shipping. That removes the burden from Spyderco and allows us individuals to do something to directly alleviate the problem. Each of us would have to lay out money for one more knife than we want but we should be reimbursed fairly quickly. As I've been typing this I realize that flippers could purchase the ones we're selling on Ebay and still raise the price for resale. At least I've presented a different approach. Can anyone think of a way of refining it? (Isn't it frustrating when you believe your genius is about to be demonstrated and you find a major flaw in your thinking?!)

[Janfrederik]

Not sure how much this would help, but maybe there could be a 50% or more markup on the second knife if you buy more than one. This could discourage flippers from buying multiple, let people who only want one get it at a good price, and if you really wanted two, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a huge deal giving more money to Spyderco to get a second one.

[DougC-3]

As I read this thread, I don't believe I saw any mention of an estimate of the percent of each mule release that winds up in the hands of flippers. When you take into account that the total number of mules on the auction site at any given time includes many different releases as well as sales by non-flipping owners, maybe it's not really all that significant.

The mule project has worked out fine for me exactly as it is. I've only been around here for about a year, but I've been lucky enough to get every mule and exclusive or sprint I've tried for. I have more time to follow the forums than many people do, and I'd be glad to volunteer to PM or email a few people when mules or sprints show up on the market. Maybe people who've had problems could get a friend with more free time to let them know when mules are available or buy one for them in their name.

Another small point: I know the stated purpose of the mule project is to provide a platform for people to perform objective comparative tests on different steels. But the reality of the situation is that this is only one aspect of the mule phenomenon. As already mentioned by others, many people buy them to collect them, make handles for them, use them for their own purposes and compare them subjectively and enjoy them in any way they please. It's silly to pretend that this is unworthy or illegitimate. Without the participation of these enthusiasts, which include me as you might suspect, I don't believe there would be enough buyers to support the program.

[QUICKSILVER]

As I read this thread, I don't believe I saw any mention of an estimate of the percent of each mule release that winds up in the hands of flippers. When you take into account that the total number of mules on the auction site at any given time includes many different releases as well as sales by non-flipping owners, maybe it's not really all that significant.

The mule project has worked out fine for me exactly as it is. I've only been around here for about a year, but I've been lucky enough to get every mule and exclusive or sprint I've tried for. I have more time to follow the forums than many people do, and I'd be glad to volunteer to PM or email a few people when mules or sprints show up on the market. Maybe people who've had problems could get a friend with more free time to let them know when mules are available or buy one for them in their name.

Another small point: I know the stated purpose of the mule project is to provide a platform for people to perform objective comparative tests on different steels. But the reality of the situation is that this is only one aspect of the mule phenomenon. As already mentioned by others, many people buy them to collect them, make handles for them, use them for their own purposes and compare them subjectively and enjoy them in any way they please. It's silly to pretend that this is unworthy or illegitimate. Without the participation of these enthusiasts, which include me as you might suspect, I don't believe there would be enough buyers to support the program.

You are right. I counted ten MT-18s on the bay earlier this evening. If 600 were produced, then this is 1.67 % being flipped right now. I don't believe many are being sold at their asking price. Maybe flipping is not a major problem. The solutions being suggested either increase work and cost for Spyderco or inconvenience the innocent. We see this pattern all the time. A sociopath commits a crime or does something irresponsible and there is a demand for new laws which penalize the innocent but have marginal effect on the guilty.

The only solution I can see is not to buy newly issued mules at inflated prices. If we vow to not buy an aftermarket mule for 3 months unless they are close to the original selling price we could put a damper on flippers.

Bill Maier

[TomAiello]

Allow each customer to purchase THREE knives. Then, those of us who don't like flipping can keep one or two, and put the second and/or third on Ebay at our exact cost plus fees and shipping. That removes the burden from Spyderco and allows us individuals to do something to directly alleviate the problem. Each of us would have to lay out money for one more knife than we want but we should be reimbursed fairly quickly.

That's actually a great idea. I'll pledge to buy and resell mules at the original price. :)

[polyhexamethyl]

hey, knifenuts!

I'm definitely down for a MT club! but not for a more restictive limit on the amount of knives possible to purchase!

i always do buy two mules, and yes, one of them is going to be sold immediatly via ebay!
since i live in europe and have to pay for shipping and customs a mule unfortunatly arives in my mailbox at a way higher price than the U.S. folks have to pay!
all my knives are sold via an auction and usually the shipping is covered by the higher price the people are willing to pay.
I've two roommates who are spyderco fanatics as well, and they do the same so maybe we're guilty of reselling, but we do NOT make money with the sales!
usually the sales are made via my ebay account, so sometimes there are 3 MT's pretty much sold immediatly from me!

sometimes some other friends of mine jump in and buy a double MT i have and i split the shipping 50/50.

I currently own about 10 upper shelf Spyderco knives, which includes NO safequeens, even my Domino is willing to do hard work for me

The forum native actually was a must buy for me, but it was to expensive for me for a back lock folder

In europe i've seen people paying a € 650,-(about USD 900,- at current value) for a NIB CF S90V C81, that's what i'd call flipping!

I'm sorry for my behaviour and very grateful for the MT program, but on a budget it's hard to spend up to 60,- bucks more on the MSRP!


Kind regards from Austria!

[defenestrate]

I'd say inform users on here, bf, bb, etc of a means to pre-register for orders and base your limit on the # who do so. Let them order first, then make sales open. At least you can make fairly certain that the afis that the program is for should be taken care of.