Combo Edges: Like or Hate?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Alright, JD, again, more excellent points from you, thank you, sir! Now, here is my proposal/idea to you and others here, and especially, Sal and Spyderco: Take a look at the AG Russell Sea Skorpion folder, here, and especially, this serration pattern, and tell me what you think:

(PS I hope this is okay to post the link in this section of the forum, the point is, it is about serration potentials for the Spyderco Knives, and Combo Edges in particular)

https://agrussell.com/knife/5541

From the description of the knife:

"Any Sailor's knife must have a serrated portion of the blade for cutting rope, especially plastic, nylon or Dacron®. Polyproplene is the worst material to cut. So we tested every serration pattern we could find and selected the one that did the very best job which we added to the half of the blade edge nearest the pivot. It does not look aggressive, but it cuts the toughest rope as if it were soft butter."

I would think it would be great if Sal and Mr. Russell could sit down or speak and compare serrations, and come up with some design that would benefit both, and you and I. I like the Spyderco serrations but I also like the ones on that Sea Skorpion.

[JD Spydo]

Those serrations on that Sea Scorpion of A.G. Russell's remind me a lot of a serration that Spyderco used way back in the 90s. I'm speaking of the C-27, stag handled Jess Horn model>> it's probably one of the most enviable collectibles in the entire Spyderco line up IMO. I hate to say it because I have a ton of respect of A.G. Russell but that model looks like a knock-off of the Spyderco TUSK model to me. And this should speak volumes that the TUSK model might just be an excellent candidate for a "combo-edge".

I still want to see the TUSK offered in full Spyderedge as well>> but I still say that it might be the best model Spyderco has come up with that would fare well with a combo edge. I'm still anxious to see how LC200N does with serrations.

[Joris Mo]

Like combo edges best when it's about 65-80% serrated and some plain edge at the tip, so pretty close to a SE.
Still hoping to get my hands on a Military like that someday, for now will have to do with a regular CE.

That brings up something that I've yet to put up for discussion. There are two Spyderco models I've had as EDC users over the years that were labeled full Spyderedge but actually neither one of them were 100% Spyderedged at all IMO. One was the SE version of the Titanium ATR and the other is my trusty, hard use, Golden CO USA made NATIVE model. Both models actually have a signifcant amount of plain edge on the end up them to where if you needed a plain edge in a bind then you actually had enough on the tip part of the blade to do PE jobs.

I would say that both of them were about 85% SE. I'm sure there are probably other Spyderco models that fit that description but I can't think of any others off the top of my head. But those two by my definition were not 100% SE but in reality were about 85% SE.

Not sure if that is exactly what you're talking about but I do think that's close to what you're described.

I've used that Native a lot as well, it was my first Spydie in '00 (2nd & 3rd didn't come till '07), I have seen a "fully SE" Military with a similar PE tip and that is still my ideal "CE". So yes that is what I was talking about.

[JD Spydo]

That's a great point you make "Joris Mo" because most people think of the more conventional combo edge which is a small portion of a plain edged blade to have a serrated edge at the heel of the blade.

Obviously the best "combo-edge" might just be what we've been talking about. And you see it a lot on the GOLDEN, CO USA Earth Spyders like the ones that have been mentioned. Having a fully serrated blade with just enough plain edge on the end/tip part of the blade to get you by and having just enough plain edge to basically get you by.

It's a great set up when you think about it. Because many of the cutting chores I do during the day could easily be done with an inch or slightly less of plain edge. With that set up you'll also have essentially a complete Spyderedged blade for all intent and purposes.

But for fixed blades I'm really liking the way they did the WARRIOR model i.e. and conventional plain edged blade with a serrated cutting edge on the spine itself. Those two combo-edges might just be the best way to go overall. JD :spyder: O

[Bill1170]

And that reminds me of a related question I had for you regarding Spyder-Edges and Combo-Edges: If Spyderco made a folder (regardless of what steel-type was used) that was a locking blade, and, had a plain edge front, and Spyder-edge back, would you and others like that? Picture in your mind something like an Endura, or Military, that had its main edge plain edge, but, the back spine of the blade, right above the SpyderHole, was serrated, so you could turn the blade over and have a serrated edge. Yes or not a good idea? Similar to the Warrior, but, a folding version. Infact, Spyderco has this, the Pygmy Warrior. Do you like that sort-of design?

To have a full sized Spyderco folder like a Military, Endura or even a K2 for that matter or any full sized folder in the main line up with a serrated edge on the spine????? What the heck!!! I would sure like to test drive something of that ilk :) .

I do think it's a great idea on a fixed blade for sure. So why wouldn't it work well on something like the Military model? Maybe that big Tatanka model would be the right blade to do that with? Actually the more I think about it I do believe that would be the ideal model to do something "out of the ordinary" with.

Yeah that's an interesting concept Spyderedge. That might just be the ultimate "combo-edge" :cool:

The biggest problem with a double edged folder has already been mentioned, namely that the sharpened spine would have to be fully buried in the handle when closed. Another problem is legality. Most jurisdictions frown on double edged knives; they are often viewed as being exclusively weapons. Someone else has mentioned that cutting with the back places an uncomfortable reliance upon the locking mechanism unless the knife is an OTF. Also, closing this sort of folder would need to be done very carefully. No more unlock and push blade closed on your thigh - ouch!

[vivi]

So please tell me what you like or dislike about combo edges. If you absolutely hate them then please explain what the problem is. I thiink many of us would like to know.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I've yet to find anything that a serrated edge does better than a sharp plain edge.

In my experience serrations work better VS a dulled plain edge, but against a freshly sharpened plain edge knife I see no benefits to serrations.

I've tried them numerous times from various companies using every sort of blade shape. Just don't see it. If you're the type to go weeks or months between sharpenings I see the draw, but personally I touch up any knife of mine that won't pop arm hairs off without touching the skin.

For those that like serrated edges, I'd welcome hearing contrary experiences. I feel like I'm missing something.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Well, Vivi, I do believe when it comes to cutting materials such as tough polymer based cordage, like that used for boating and rigging and fishing, and materials such as seatbelt webbing, there is no competition for a plain edge knife against a well-made serrated edge like Spyderco serrations. Even the best plain edge is not going to be able to cut through that stuff quicker than a serrated edge and you may have to use more force to do it with a plain edge.

I admit I could be wrong on this, however.

But in my own personal experience with the SE and PE it seems the SE goes through stuff like that much faster and completely in a shorter amount of time.

[ThePeacent]

No PE will cut through this with ease, let alone a 4 hour shift of 20 grown Agave plants



or Opuntia roots that must be cut and burnt because of funghi



or tough, dry fibers like these (esp. with a sandy, rocky soil below where the knife will inevitably stab and go at some point)

[JD Spydo]

Your point is well taken "Peacent" but actually you've made a solid case for a full Spyderedge. No combo-edge would do a job like that with the tool-power to get through any of those extremely fibrous desert plants. On top of that I don't ever get any portion of a plain edge anywhere close to dirt or sand unless it is a dire emergency.

But I can actually see some valid uses for combo edged blades in the desert but not to that extreme.

[vivi]

Well, Vivi, I do believe when it comes to cutting materials such as tough polymer based cordage, like that used for boating and rigging and fishing, and materials such as seatbelt webbing, there is no competition for a plain edge knife against a well-made serrated edge like Spyderco serrations. Even the best plain edge is not going to be able to cut through that stuff quicker than a serrated edge and you may have to use more force to do it with a plain edge.

I admit I could be wrong on this, however.

But in my own personal experience with the SE and PE it seems the SE goes through stuff like that much faster and completely in a shorter amount of time.

I've tried cutting seatbelts and all sorts of poly rope with my plain edged knives. No issue at all, its never taken me more than a single slice no matter how thick the rope was. Low grit edge finishes do help in these situations.

Dirt & sand hasn't been an issue for me either. If my blade gets dull I hone it on a DMT fine pocket stone the size of a credit card, or a sheet of sandpaper.

As far as roots and fibrous plants go, haven't had much need to do that. I've gathered tall grasses with a PE aqua salt for an impromptu shelter bedding during an overnighter in the mountains, but haven't ever cut materials like that. Thanks for sharing Peacant, SE does look like a better choice for that sort of work.

[ZrowsN1s]

Every once in awhile, it comes in handy and I say to myself, see aren't you glad you had a few serrations? 9 times out of 10 times however I say *#$!@ these stupid serrations are getting in the way again and snagging material while I try to cut things with the PE part, the part I use 99.9% of the time. I own 2 combo edge knives and I like them, but I doubt I will own ever own a third. The real solution is to make a new and improved dyad model so you can have the best of both worlds, on separate blades. :D

[Evil D]

This is a bit off topic of the combo edge thing, but I was completely blown away at how well my Tasman cut aloe. I'm sure PE would have cut it just fine, this stuff isn't really difficult to cut, but the hawkbill/SE combo made it completely effortless.

[JD Spydo]

This is a bit off topic of the combo edge thing, but I was completely blown away at how well my Tasman cut aloe. I'm sure PE would have cut it just fine, this stuff isn't really difficult to cut, but the hawkbill/SE combo made it completely effortless.

You're discovering what I discovered quite a while back concerning Hawkbill blades. The beautiful thing about Hawkbill blades and especially with Spyderedged Hawkbills is that they are always at an "Angle of Attack" as I like to term it. With the "pull cutting" advantages of a Hawkbill SE blade is that by just merely pulling it you are putting the edge into a slicing configuration without even any pressure to speak of and when cutting anything fibrous like your Aloe for instance it truly gives you an advantage.

Albeit I don't think the same can be said about combo edges>> but I still maintain that they are great blades if you're dealing with a lot or rope and/or cordage. Any cutting job where you have to implement a "back & forth" motion to achieve your cut can be done with a combo edge however.

[PayneTrain]

I used to buy combo edges exclusively, back when I was younger and didn't really know what I'd be using my knife for. Often times it would come in handy. Occasionally I would want one or the other, plain edge or serrated, and not feel like I had enough of either. Overall, I think they are a practical choice for the all-purpose knife and unless you know your life is going to favor one over the other, the benefits of the combination outweigh the occasional drawback.

I don't buy combo edges anymore though. Mostly because they aren't available on the models I buy, but also because I don't feel the need for them. My usage habits don't really beg for a combo edge. Most days are plain edge days, and on serrated days I carry accordingly. Sometimes I'll even carry both! But I do still like those old combo edge knives and once in a while they get the chance to remind me that they're more practical than we give them credit for, and they aren't simply indecisive, an afterthought, or the marketing mash-up that they appear to be.

[jmh58]

Not a fan.. John

[JD Spydo]

Every once in awhile, it comes in handy and I say to myself, see aren't you glad you had a few serrations? 9 times out of 10 times however I say *#$!@ these stupid serrations are getting in the way again and snagging material while I try to cut things with the PE part, the part I use 99.9% of the time. I own 2 combo edge knives and I like them, but I doubt I will own ever own a third. The real solution is to make a new and improved dyad model so you can have the best of both worlds, on separate blades. :D

Yeah I believe that's a growing consensus concerning combo-edged Spyders. Like yourself I'll probably keep the ones I still have but it's doubtful I get another one any time soon.

But "ZrowN" you've hit the nail directly on the head because truly a new, improved and slightly modified C-44 Dyad model would actually do a lot more than any combo-edge IMO.

Not only would I like a newer/better double-bladed Spyderco folder but I also think they should do each blade with the blade steels that perform the best. Have a Dyad II with an M-4 PE blade and a LC200N Spyderedged blade. You wouldn't be able to keep them on the shelves

[ZrowsN1s]

Not only would I like a newer/better double-bladed Spyderco folder but I also think they should do each blade with the blade steels that perform the best. Have a Dyad II with an M-4 PE blade and a LC200N Spyderedged blade. You wouldn't be able to keep them on the shelves

I really think you are on to something there.


On a related note, yesterday a friend gave me his fathers old dive knife to clean up and get functional, all the edges were wrecked and spotted with rust and the hilt was rusting. A little elbow grease and some time and it's in working order again and my friend is happy. I know this isn't a Spyderco, but since we we're talking about combo-edges, I thought I'd share, check out the vintage triple combo edge of Scubapro's "The Knife".

[Donut]

I do prefer both my SE and my CE to have enough "plain edge" to be "used for something". It annoys me to have 1/4" of plain edge on a knife and not be able to use it for anything.

I thought for certain the Native 5 was going to have a longer PE on the full serrated model because the last lightweight version and the Native 3 SE both had enough PE on the serrated version. =\

But, I am part of the SE Brotherhood and the SE Native 5 is good for when you won't ever need PE or are carrying another knife that is PE.

[TheKnifeCollector]

I don't care for CE or SE knives.

[JD Spydo]

I don't care for CE or SE knives.

Hey "KnifeCollector" :D It's been quite a while since I seen you here at Spyderville :) I could have swore at one time you did sort of like Spyders with teeth in them :D

But If I do remember correctly you did at one time like the smaller Spyderco folders It's good to see you posting again. I wish more of the old crowd from 2004 to 2006 would be coming back. Just talked to Dr. Lecter not too long ago. So why don't you like Spyders with teeth in them??? :rolleyes: