Why CPM 3V

[Pokey]

There is 3V stuff in-the-works.

sal

Sign me up!

[VandymanG]

Just a thought. Wouldn’t it be cool if the first 6 inch mule was 3V. Although I think it will be the regular size mule that we first see 3V used again due to previous response from @sal to a post by me in this thread. All is good though I’m just excited something is in the works. Something I had not thought of till now, a serrated mule in 3V would be a lot of fun to test out. The toughness alone will probably make a great serrated blade. Add that it should be easier to sharpen than high edge retention steels and I think it will be a winner. Looking at @Larrin charts it has higher toughness and edge retention than AEB-L or LC200N. Wonder what the patina will look like? I love a steel that will patina over time.

[Brock O Lee]

I'm gonna convince myself a C95 is on that list

[benben]

Looking at @Larrin charts it has higher toughness and edge retention than AEB-L or LC200N. Wonder what the patina will look like? I love a steel that will patina over time.

I have a Medford Praetorian in 3V that I've never done anything to it to prevent corrosion, at this point I think I'd have to force a patina on it! Just like Cru-wear, they both have 7.5% Chromium, of course not enough to be stainless but still way more stain resistant than K390, 1095, M4 and the like.

I live in the Piedmont of NC, right outside of Charlotte, very humid in the Summers, my lone 3V knife and the probably five Cru-wear knives I own are still as clean and pit free with no patina as the day they were new!

To me they're both the perfect knife steels, tough, easy to sharpen, somewhat stain resistant, better than average edge retention, win win, bring on the 3V!

[Red Leader]

Looking at @Larrin charts it has higher toughness and edge retention than AEB-L or LC200N. Wonder what the patina will look like? I love a steel that will patina over time.

I have a Medford Praetorian in 3V that I've never done anything to it to prevent corrosion, at this point I think I'd have to force a patina on it! Just like Cru-wear, they both have 7.5% Chromium, of course not enough to be stainless but still way more stain resistant than K390, 1095, M4 and the like.

I live in the Piedmont of NC, right outside of Charlotte, very humid in the Summers, my lone 3V knife and the probably five Cru-wear knives I own are still as clean and pit free with no patina as the day they were new!

To me they're both the perfect knife steels, tough, easy to sharpen, somewhat stain resistant, better than average edge retention, win win, bring on the 3V!

I've heard the same about 3V, and to that point the Carothers I have, which I have used plenty on the jobsite, has not a spot of corrosion, nor discoloration or patina. In one of Larrin's articles on 3V, he talks about 3V as a proper specimen for what might be referred to as 'semi-stainless', where it doesn't quite make the stainless cut, but is certainly more corrosion resistant than many, especially carbon/low alloy steels, have. Some experiments w/ the tempering also seem to have a bearing on the corrosion resistance.

I'd be real curious how some of the 'Hawaii testing' on 3V might come out, just as far as in comparison to other popular EDC steels like Cruwear and K390.

[vivi]

Same experience here as Ben has had with 3V. I've taken my 3V SRK backpacking in rainy conditions, used it to cut food etc., no spotting or discoloration at all.

Cruwear rusts a lot more easily for me and doesn't seem quite as tough. Sharpens up and holds an edge nicely though.

I prefer 3V based on my experiences with the two steels.

[Red Leader]

3V (new Erasteel production) would do nicely in a mainline Golden production 'series' going on a theme of field/trade-focused work knives, meant to work hard and stand up to tough usage. Right now Cruwear is the toughest we get (production wise), and with 3V being even tougher and potentially more stain resistant, it would fill the bottom end gap nicely. I'm betting that 3V would be a cinch to machine and grind, and with how tough it is, might reduce warranty claims. There is a lot to love here.

Although we all know that wear resistance won't be as high, the edge strength/stability of 3V is also something I've heard chatter about. Much how Shawn has talked about the edge strength of K390 and 15V, I've heard similar about 3V from Carothers.

'New' 3V / Magnamax could usher in another golden age of steels. Even though both are at opposite ends of the spectrum, both are ultra super steels and I really like both!

[VandymanG]

Well I love everything you all are saying except the part about it not being good for a patina. Sigh oh well I still really want 3V. Maybe if I don’t oil it as often then maybe it’ll show some character. The main thing that got my attention though was the toughness and edge retention combination.

[benben]

The main thing that got my attention though was the toughness and edge retention combination.

Hey Vandy, just know it's got "good" edge retention....don't expect anything like S110V, S90V, M4, 4V or the M390 family, even Cru-wear ranks a little higher on the edge retention chart.

But for me it's really easy to sharpen, My Praetorian is thick as a brick, definitely not a slicer, and pretty thick behind the edge, in other words a sharpened prybar by design, but it takes a killer edge!

Having said all that....bring on the 3V!

[Synov]

It can have amazing edge retention if ground thin.

[vivi]

That's the beauty of really tough steels, they hold up better with really thin edges VS something more brittle.

I ground my S7 Dogfather less than half the thickness of the factory edge and have abused the heck out of it for nearly 20 years now. It won't win any cardboard edge retention tests but for busting up fatwood stu.ps, batoning hard knotty woods and even hammering it through some braided steel cabling....it's great.

I've been carrying a finger grooved Buck 110 lite lately too, and Buck really grinds those 420HC hollow ground blades thin. Never had an issue with those and I've used them pretty rough over the years too.

Even reprofiled a few older ones thinner before they started the edge 2000 geometry. Took one flat to the stone even, then applied a microbevel at 15 degrees. Never did chip it, even carving woods, but I was a little extra careful with it.

[horzuff]

I wonder if this would actually pan out. As in if just 30% thinner/more acute geometry would result in magnacut or 3v exceeding maxamet and rex121

[benben]

I wonder if this would actually pan out. As in if just 30% thinner/more acute geometry would result in magnacut or 3v exceeding maxamet and rex121

I say we get Sal to make us a C95 or a Bodacious in 3V and let's find out?

[horzuff]

It would have to be a Para 2 or Sage to be actually comparable I think. I think only those models were available in both Maxamet and Rex121. Though I wouldn't say no to a 3V bodacious

[vivi]

It would have to be a Para 2 or Sage to be actually comparable I think. I think only those models were available in both Maxamet and Rex121. Though I wouldn't say no to a 3V bodacious

Those models would be cool to see in 3V for comparison sake, but in general I think tougher steels are better suited towards larger designs like the C95 and the Police. On smaller folders I like harder, high edge retention steels since they dull faster than large knives all else being equal.

Mules are another option for good baseline comparisons.

I've seen the influence of thin geometry on edge holding in enough ways to know it's probably the #1 factor that factors into edge holding ability, but it's always good for others to be able to easily see the same thing.

My 420HC FG Buck 110 Lite holds its own on most materials against my Cold Steel Recon in S35VN with a much thicker factory edge.

Another thing to keep in mind is how quickly thinly ground lower carbide % steels touch up. Just a few swipes on a ceramic will do it.

Even though I won't be buying one because the handle & overall size don't work for me, I will be following feedback from the high performance delica experiment very closely.

[horzuff]

It would have to be a Para 2 or Sage to be actually comparable I think. I think only those models were available in both Maxamet and Rex121. Though I wouldn't say no to a 3V bodacious

Those models would be cool to see in 3V for comparison sake, but in general I think tougher steels are better suited towards larger designs like the C95 and the Police. On smaller folders I like harder, high edge retention steels since they dull faster than large knives all else being equal.

Mules are another option for good baseline comparisons.

I've seen the influence of thin geometry on edge holding in enough ways to know it's probably the #1 factor that factors into edge holding ability, but it's always good for others to be able to easily see the same thing.

My 420HC FG Buck 110 Lite holds its own on most materials against my Cold Steel Recon in S35VN with a much thicker factory edge.

Another thing to keep in mind is how quickly thinly ground lower carbide % steels touch up. Just a few swipes on a ceramic will do it.

Even though I won't be buying one because the handle & overall size don't work for me, I will be following feedback from the high performance delica experiment very closely.

I might agree with where 3V would shine but my post was strictly about the comparison aspect of 30% more acute 3V being ~equal in edge retention to Maxamet and Rex121.

And I'm not doubting geometry being the top factor in edge retention but is it to such a high degree that going down a couple dps would result in more than double TCC (from ~450 to ~1050, so 2,(3) times more)

[Evil D]

The more I look at charts, the more I wonder why I wouldn't just go with LC200N, or another way of saying it would be that it's such an under appreciated steel.

But who am I kidding, I'm a steel junkie so let me know when I can buy some

To nobody's surprise I'd like it in a Bodacious lol.

[tomhosangoutdoors]

It would have to be a Para 2 or Sage to be actually comparable I think. I think only those models were available in both Maxamet and Rex121. Though I wouldn't say no to a 3V bodacious

Those models would be cool to see in 3V for comparison sake, but in general I think tougher steels are better suited towards larger designs like the C95 and the Police. On smaller folders I like harder, high edge retention steels since they dull faster than large knives all else being equal.

Mules are another option for good baseline comparisons.

I've seen the influence of thin geometry on edge holding in enough ways to know it's probably the #1 factor that factors into edge holding ability, but it's always good for others to be able to easily see the same thing.

My 420HC FG Buck 110 Lite holds its own on most materials against my Cold Steel Recon in S35VN with a much thicker factory edge.

Another thing to keep in mind is how quickly thinly ground lower carbide % steels touch up. Just a few swipes on a ceramic will do it.

Even though I won't be buying one because the handle & overall size don't work for me, I will be following feedback from the high performance delica experiment very closely.

I might agree with where 3V would shine but my post was strictly about the comparison aspect of 30% more acute 3V being ~equal in edge retention to Maxamet and Rex121.

And I'm not doubting geometry being the top factor in edge retention but is it to such a high degree that going down a couple dps would result in more than double TCC (from ~450 to ~1050, so 2,(3) times more)

It really wouldn't be close. You'd see a jump with thinner geometry for sure, but the low carbide volume and relative hardness wouldn't compare to Maxamet and REX121. You need an adequate hardness to give the edge strength to support thinner geometry as well. Running 3V at 63-64 and thinning the edge out would push it closer to CruWear and 4V edge retention.

3V only has ~5% carbide volume while REX121 has ~30% and Maxamet has ~22%. No geometry is going to make enough of a difference to make up for that difference in carbide volume. I think this 3V would be cool if it's run at 63-64 in a folder. You get the toughness that 3V offers but the edge strength to give you much better edge retention. Save the softer stuff for fixed blades. I know it would be a tall task for Spyderco to hit that mark in a production setting, but if anyone could make it happen it's them.

[vivi]

While this may be a moot point for 3-4" blade folders....

One thing that often gets overlooked is there are different types of edge retention.

The best edge retention steel is going to be wildly different for a chopping axe VS a box cutter VS a dive knife.

If you're cutting cardboard a lot, maxamet or rex 121 should be clearly a head of 3V.

If you're doing rougher work on less abrasive materials, 3V could pull a head.

If you're working in highly corrosive environments, magnacut could pass any of the previously mentioned steels.

Just something to think about, and how boiling edge retention down to a 3/10 or 7/10 can be misleading. You have to consider how the tools edge will be degraded.

In my line of work (chef), 55rc Victorinox knives can hold an edge longer than much harder white #1 knives for me when cutting very acidic foods.

[Synov]

It really wouldn't be close. You'd see a jump with thinner geometry for sure, but the low carbide volume and relative hardness wouldn't compare to Maxamet and REX121. You need an adequate hardness to give the edge strength to support thinner geometry as well. Running 3V at 63-64 and thinning the edge out would push it closer to CruWear and 4V edge retention.

3V only has ~5% carbide volume while REX121 has ~30% and Maxamet has ~22%. No geometry is going to make enough of a difference to make up for that difference in carbide volume. I think this 3V would be cool if it's run at 63-64 in a folder. You get the toughness that 3V offers but the edge strength to give you much better edge retention. Save the softer stuff for fixed blades. I know it would be a tall task for Spyderco to hit that mark in a production setting, but if anyone could make it happen it's them.

It may seem hard to believe but the data show it to be true. For example, CPM-154 (not exactly a carbide monster) exceeded Maxamet simply by going from 15 dps to 10 dps. Geometry beats carbides.