Police XL Talk

[cabfrank]

Lots of good perspectives here, but this is about blade length, which is about cutting edge, which i think should be about no choil to reduce that.

[Wartstein]

Lots of good perspectives here, but this is about blade length, which is about cutting edge, which i think should be about no choil to reduce that.

Again:
From all we have seen so far of Spyderco backlock handle forward design: "No choil" (or "no visible ricasso") does NOT necessarily mean "more cutting edge"...(it is rather "just" the handle that gets extended forward, not the edge extended backwards..)

[sal]

Hi Gernot,

A "handle forward" Large Police might have a tad more cutting edge, but it wouldn't be much. I don't think enough to make a difference.

sal

[Wartstein]

Hi Gernot,

A "handle forward" Large Police might have a tad more cutting edge, but it wouldn't be much. I don't think enough to make a difference.

sal

Thanks, Sal, appreciate the insight!

I was purely going by what we saw in the Jumpers:

Honestly great designs, especially the handle forward concept in a backlock knife, but at least in their cases appearantly not primarily about making the cutting edge longer towards the handle, but rather making the handle longer in order to cover the unsharpened area.

That unsharpened area still seems to be about as long and "edge length consuming" as it is on other backlock knives where that area is exposed (choil, ricasso).

This does NOT mean a handle forward superlong backlock knife would not be nice.. I personally would just like some kind of "secondary guard" on such a long handle that creates some "anchor point" for the index finger.. could be a 50:50 choil or a finger groove in the handle itself...

[Jeb]

Guys, I like my finger and thumb choils and there is never enough jimping. I know it's more expensive but makes a large blade much easier to choke up on to use on something you might need to get close and skin down something easier, if you don't have a smaller knives on you handy...

The choils and jimping just helps keep sweaty and/or wet fingers where they belong, and they just show off serious workmanship to me. I just can't imagine anyone not being able to use these on a 5" blade...

I also like my liners, full liners both sides please. If it makes this knife to heavy for you, maybe you really don't have a clue what a 5" knife can do for you.

The liners just help the scales huck up nice and square and flush, not to mention the strength this adds to this beast.

The twisting and stabbing of a 5" blade can apply a whole new level of cutting and separating flesh and bone joints, while leveraging cartilage joints apart.

This want be your fu fu knife, this will be drawn from your pocket and when the blade locks open and it's all out there for everybody to see, everyone knows it's The Knife.

This being a 5" knife, wow! What a knife this will be. I want two of them just to start the getting warm and fuzzy feeling. Then I will get serious about a bigger order of these...

[derangedhermit]

Lots of good perspectives here, but this is about blade length, which is about cutting edge, which i think should be about no choil to reduce that.

Again:
From all we have seen so far of Spyderco backlock handle forward design: "No choil" (or "no visible ricasso") does NOT necessarily mean "more cutting edge"...(it is rather "just" the handle that gets extended forward, not the edge extended backwards..)

Thanks for the reminder, this time it finally sank in. I am still under the impression this applies to back locks only, not, for example, compression locks, and is due to the way back locks, or at least Spyderco back locks, are designed.

[TimButterfield]

One consideration I have in choil vs no-choil, especially for a backlock, is what will touch my finger when it drops closed. Will a choil touch my finger or will it be a sharpened portion of the blade. Consider this image of the Chap for an example of what I mean. Dropping the blade to close is safe on this one.


Even though it also has a choil, the Caly lands differently.


Of course, if there is no choil at all, it can only land with the sharpened edge. This affects how we learn to close any particular knife to keep safety. I'm not sure how the existing police closes.

So, if a Police XL has a choil with the backlock, how would the blade land on the finger, on the choil or on the sharp bits?

[Wartstein]

@TimButterfield
The Leafjumper and Rockjumper show how their CAN be almost no choil or (visible) ricasso on a backlock-knife, but edge almost all the way to handle and still the sharpened edge will NOT hit the index finger when closing the knife...

And, also @derangedhermit with comp.locks or linerlocks they DO "handle forward " in a way that the cutting edge is actually maximized (and could hit the finger when closing the knife..)

Sadly and weirdly this is not the case with backlocks:
For whatever strange reasons only with THIS locktype people seem to refuse to adopt one of quite some imo better closing methods, but stick to the "let the blade drop on the forefinger" method... sure a backlock needs some amount of 'kick", but still the edge could be a lot longer on a handle forward backlock folder IF people would just use another closing method with this locktype too... no idea why so many refuse to just do this.

[Jeb]

I don't know about everyone else here, but I like to close my Police4 just like you mentioned here, I keep my blade like a Razor at all times and I want the blade to drop freely when I clutch it to do so. Finger in the wrong place, and I bleed...

I want to be able to do this without even looking at my knife as I going back to my pocket with it. So I feel the finger choil hit my finger, then I reach up and finish closing the knife and into the pocket.

That's just me and how I use the finger choil, I do this with a Razor sharp blade and never look at it, I draw the knife and cut whatever and close it never taking my eyes away from what I am doing.

I don't have a better answer as to why, other than I am just weird this way, you have to realize I also use a lanyard on my knifes too lol...

[vivi]

One consideration I have in choil vs no-choil, especially for a backlock, is what will touch my finger when it drops closed. Will a choil touch my finger or will it be a sharpened portion of the blade. Consider this image of the Chap for an example of what I mean. Dropping the blade to close is safe on this one.


Even though it also has a choil, the Caly lands differently.


Of course, if there is no choil at all, it can only land with the sharpened edge. This affects how we learn to close any particular knife to keep safety. I'm not sure how the existing police closes.

So, if a Police XL has a choil with the backlock, how would the blade land on the finger, on the choil or on the sharp bits?

I am 1000% against any lockback being designed around this.

There are other ways to close lockbacks that don't require the design to be held back.

I could go either way on the subject of choils for a hypothetical Police XL, but I hate seeing designs compromised for one particular way of closing a knife.

[vivi]

I want to be able to do this without even looking at my knife as I going back to my pocket with it. So I feel the finger choil hit my finger, then I reach up and finish closing the knife and into the pocket.

here's two other ways I can close a Police blindfolded.

https://dubz.co/v/46c18c

Now I'm not saying dropping the choil on your finger is the wrong way to do it.

I just get annoyed we have so few Spydercos with the edge all the way to the handle featuring a lockback because they design with this in mind.

[p_atrick]

It's funny (and I'm only speaking for myself), I prefer to have the choil/kick fall on my finger as I close the knife. I know this sounds weird, but it feels like the most "natural" way to close the knife. But, if I step back and think about it, I actively put my finger in the path of a closing blade. Wasn't that very fact an impetus to develop locks like the Compression lock and the Axis lock? Not passing any judgement here. I just never really put much thought into my own actions.

[Jeb]

V,

I here you, honestly I do. This is just how I have done it. The video is great if your hands are not all sweaty, greasey and nasty, or mine won't be able to do it like those different ways.

Then there is the fact my hands are beat up and full of arthritis, my hands can't move like yours lol. Then I don't think mine could do that 45 years ago either. To many fights, I have always had my hands beat up for one reason or the other.

[Wartstein]

I don't know about everyone else here, but I like to close my Police4 just like you mentioned here, I keep my blade like a Razor at all times and I want the blade to drop freely when I clutch it to do so. Finger in the wrong place, and I bleed...

I want to be able to do this without even looking at my knife as I going back to my pocket with it. So I feel the finger choil hit my finger, then I reach up and finish closing the knife and into the pocket.

That's just me and how I use the finger choil, I do this with a Razor sharp blade and never look at it, I draw the knife and cut whatever and close it never taking my eyes away from what I am doing.

I don't have a better answer as to why, other than I am just weird this way, you have to realize I also use a lanyard on my knifes too lol...

First and foremost: I did not mean to sound offensive to anyone, but perhaps did.

That said:
My question is not why people need a good amount of unsharpened edge when closing a backlock knife by letting the blade drop on the forefinger...(that's obvious)

... but rather why only with a backlock they don't use another way of closing in the first place.
There are several good and easy ones that work perfectly well also "without ever looking at the knife".

Don't get me wrong, it's generally fine of course to close a backlock like you and many do!
But like Vivi above I find it sad that this to me not really understandable fixation on ONLY this way of closing also seems to be the main reason why we never see a backlock Spydie with maximum edge length..

[Snacktime]

The most important question of the day is the "Finger Choil" a key design feature of the police series? We can always ask for an XL Endera next since that is definitely a no finger choil design. If you don't want the thumb ramp you can get a native chief.

[James Y]

V,

I here you, honestly I do. This is just how I have done it. The video is great if your hands are not all sweaty, greasey and nasty, or mine won't be able to do it like those different ways.

Then there is the fact my hands are beat up and full of arthritis, my hands can't move like yours lol. Then I don't think mine could do that 45 years ago either. To many fights, I have always had my hands beat up for one reason or the other.

I agree with this. Although my hands are perfectly fine (no arthritis), I know that everybody's situation is different. And not everybody's hands will remain the way they are forever.

To go off-subject a bit; my dad was a blue collar worker and had had strong hands his entire life, until he eventually could no longer use the pocket knives he'd always used. He could no longer open them; they were "traditional" pocket knives with nail nicks.

Those types of pocket knives were obviously not as easy to open as Spydercos. But I use him as an example here, because people's hands and their preferences / circumstances aren't all the same, and won't necessarily stay the same.

Jim

[Wartstein]

The most important question of the day is the "Finger Choil" a key design feature of the police series? We can always ask for an XL Endera next since that is definitely a no finger choil design. If you don't want the thumb ramp you can get a native chief.

Well, what we know is that the Police always featured an exposed unsharpened blade area next to the handle... so "handle forward" would be a totally new feature, "ricasso" or choil not.

This is not meant against "handle forward", but just a neutral statement.

[Snacktime]

Well, what we know is that the Police always featured an exposed unsharpened blade area next to the handle... so "handle forward" would be a totally new feature, "ricasso" or choil not.

This is not meant against "handle forward", but just a neutral statement.

To me the Police 4 has a slight handle forward design, very close to Military forward sweep.

[ZrowsN1s]

It's funny (and I'm only speaking for myself), I prefer to have the choil/kick fall on my finger as I close the knife. I know this sounds weird, but it feels like the most "natural" way to close the knife. But, if I step back and think about it, I actively put my finger in the path of a closing blade. Wasn't that very fact an impetus to develop locks like the Compression lock and the Axis lock? Not passing any judgement here. I just never really put much thought into my own actions.

Thats my feeling on it. It's the fastest, most natural, don't have to think about it or adjust my grip way to close a backlock. It would be annoying to me to do it differently, but that's me.

[TimButterfield]

@Wartstein & @vivi
My mention of this potential issue was not to prevent it. As my two photos show, even with a choil, there is no guarantee how a drop may touch a finger. The Chap touches with the choil. The Caly touches sharp instead of with the choil, even though it has a choil. Two choils with different touches.

With a comp lock pinched between my thumb and index finger, my fingers are already out of the path of the blade when closing. No issues there.

With a liner lock, for me anyway, unlocking it with my thumb typically has the blade being pushed up against gravity by my index finger. So, no blade drops there either.

With a backlock released by my thumb with my index finger on the other side of the handle, the blade typically falls due to gravity unless I find a way to work around it as I do with the Caly. With the Caly, I flip the blade over and release that backlock more like I do a liner lock, having to push the blade against gravity with my finger. It's a slower process.

My post was due to curiosity. If the Police XL does have a choil to go along with the longer and heavier blade, what would it do? Can I get the convenience of safely dropping the blade when releasing the lock in my normal fashion? Or, will I have to find a way to work around that limitation as I do with the Caly?