Mule Team flipping

[bh49]

If you make mules only available to forum members and engrave the forum name on the mules

I like this.

[Philo Beddoe]

Teh answer is simple: Raise the price of each Mule to $269.95 along with this caveat:

"No international or State of New York sales but, due to numerous requests, we are currently making an exception and making them available to international buyers. Please click here for additional information. 9% sales tax will be added to orders shipped to California. Shipping is via USPS Priority Mail with insurance and tracking to any 49 States. If you pay with a Cashier’s Check or an USPS Money Order, your package will ship when the payment has been cleared.

To be fair to all of our customers, we are unable to hand pick knives before they are shipped. Everything on this website is genuine and 100% factory brand new. Please rest assure that all Spyderco knives have been inspected by Spyderco personnel in Golden, Colorado, and have passed Spyderco’s rigorous quality control unless stated otherwise.

All sales are final. If you feel that there is an issue with your Spyderco knife, please contact Spyderco’s Warranty and Repair Department either by phone at (800) 525-7770, extension 255, or by email at customerservice@spyderco.com."

Seems its worked quite well for BBS :D

[ugaarguy]

I did want the last MT but have a job and work long days and can't access the internet fulltime. Every time I went to the site the MT and I went maybe 10 times it was sold out.

I think that actually identifies a huge problem. The fact that all the mules go on sale at 0900 MST on the Spyderco website only enables the flippers. The flippers typically run web based business so they can sit in front of a computer waiting to order these. All the while, the regular folks with regular jobs are either at work in the Eastern US or commuting to / arriving at work in the Western US. Selling them all at once during regular business hours hinders regular folks from getting them, and aids the flippers in getting them. So, with more thought given, here are my solutions:

1. Set up a two week or so pre-order period. Sell them as 50% or 100% paid pre-orders. Make as many knives as are ordered.
1a. If paid pre-orders at 2 per customer exceed the amount of steel available drop the limit to 1 knife per customer, and refund the payment for the 2nd to those who ordered two.
1b. If paid pre-orders at one per customer still exceed the amount of steel available go to a lottery or drawing to determine who gets the knives.
1c. Those whose pre-paid orders were refunded under a 1 per customer lottery also get a code issued allowing them to have priority over the lottery on the next run that outsells supply.

2. On the rare chance that a batch doesn't pre-sell the full amount needed for a minimum production run sell the remainder of that batch online starting at 2000 (8PM) MST so that more folks are home and off work to compete with the flippers.

[FCM415]

Gotta chime back in...

While a lot of these suggestions may help curb the flipping, they can also backfire and make the Mules more coveted on the flipping market. Also, it greatly overcomplicates a product that is essentially a not for profit piece for their customers... I strongly believe that we should begin with simple solutions first before trying tedious processes for SFO team to have to deal with...Might make sense for Paramilitary releases, but Mules not so much.

Raising the piece count of the obvious popular steels like S110v, K390, K294, and 10v to 1000 pieces will go a long way. It's a niche market and the more that are made, the less are left out.

Also, like I shared on my original post on this thread, limiting to one may actually be a viable option. It won't stop flippers in their tracks but it will make it harder. Example, the guy who bought NINE...With the limit, his proxy accounts and addresses from friends will be limited to one as well...And in the end more pieces will get to the end user.

[FCM415]

A few recent posts here suggest raising the price. I am totally opposed to that. Part of the purpose of the Mules is to bring forth an affordable way to test out new steels. Raising the price of these "blanks" that don't come with a handle and sheath totally defeats the purpose. Overpricing them because of a few bad apples shows that they won and say they charge $140 for one... Some fans will either lose interest because of the price and others will be forced to pay $200 from these same flippers anyway. It will deter the flippers, look at the BBS Military, a knife that flippers simply can't do nothing with but is that what we really want? How many bought that knife, two? It will never be sold out from BBS. Raising the price is simply not a good enough compromise. If they raise it a little, flippers will simply flip it higher. If they raise it to a ridiculous amount like BBS, no one will buy it and many will accuse Spyderco for being overpriced. $150 for a blank simply doesn't make any sense.

It has gotten to a point that something does have to be done. JNewell and a few others including myself have said that limiting to ONE will not stop these flippers in their tracks but I now realize that it may be the best thing to do. It may not stop them but it would make it that much harder to order multiples. I ordered two each of the past several Mules but for the sake of preserving this gift from Sal, getting only one to help get more out to more end users is worth that sacrifice.

Making a second run while makes sense to us would be too much of a burden for the company... Production slots are already very tight and a program that is not for profit doesn't make business sense and will only slow down other projects.

SFO team I imagine worked hard to weed out duplicate orders and the project takes their time away from their other duties. It's a program they do for our benefit and I'm grateful for that. They are doing the best they can and hope the program continues without an unnecessary artificial increase in price. Let's try limit of one... The last two releases are magnified because of the steels used, while the Mules are gaining popularity, I don't think we'll see this kind of frenzy at every release. Most stay available for weeks up to months.

So in short, let's try limit of one AND upping the number to say 1000 pcs on the obvious hot steels. S110v and K390 being examples. It isn't too hard to guess:steels like K294 and 10v 1000 pcs...4V, 600 pcs. And if the extras don't sell, then bump it to limit 2!

Quoting myself, I know it's a wall of text but please read it!

[TomAiello]

I really don't think dropping the limit to 1 is a good idea.

The flipper with 9 obviously would have bought 2 from each identity, so he still has his 1. And 9 extras. His 9 extras are a lot bigger draw if everyone else only has 1. Less so if everyone else can get 2.

I like the pre-order idea. I like raising the price slightly. I like making the production runs bigger. I'm not a fan of lowering the limit to 1, unless it's something like "1 pre-order per person, PLUS one that can be ordered in general delivery."

[ManixFan]

I know that the stated purpose of the MT program is to "test" new steels. But people wanting certain steels really aren't buying because they are "wondering" how the steel will perform. Most everyone on the forum knows that S110V will perform amazingly - especially after being endorsed by the true steel gurus on this and other forums. I bought the MT18's for the first time after seeing how beautiful they can be customize to the end user's taste. Mine just arrived yesterday (note from post office on door) and I will be going out the door shortly to pick mine up.

I have already spoken to someone who can do the knife justice in putting on some dyed burl scales and make me some Boltoron sheaths for them - actually someone near Spyderco who I found out about on this forum. I will probably keep one in the kitchen full-time and carry the other one in my MaxP versipack along with a nice fork and Ti spoon.

Although I am progressively getting more obsessive in collecting knives of which Spyderco's have generally and most consistently been my favourite (although there are some beautiful knives out there from other mfr's too) and the company that I will be buying the bulk of my future knives from - simply because there are so many gorgeous knives in different variations. The shame about a one-time only run is that when you find something this good it is not all about "testing steels" - it is about getting an amazing steel that you know is amazing and being able to customize to your tastes for a beautifully unique blade that although is a Spyderco through and through in design - also is your own version of a Spyderco that no one else can duplicate - a true "custom" production knife.

To put scales and sheath it and ship it back to me - it will cost me an extra $225 for 2 knives - plus 25 shipping there = $250 x1.13 (Canadian conversion) ~ $ 280 + $220 ($CA inc shipping) = $500 x 1.13 (taxes about the same as exchange) = $565 (~$500 US).

This means that I get two beautiful "custom" knives for ~285 Canadian (250 US) each. Although cheap for a custom in this steel type - I simply have no other option since I simply could not afford to buy an S110V custom but this first MT purchase of mine gives me the lifelong joy of being able to own such a unique knife AND still afford to buy other Spyderco's for my collection. A blank will never be a pure "production" knife except for those that truly do just stick a generic handle on them and stick them in a line up with their other 16 MT's and do testing on them continuously because they truly are curious about the limits of each steel and having a blade in the same configuration allows then to reduce the variables and focus on the steel. Something that as a Professional Engineer myself I can understand the importance of. Myself - I think that these will both be beautiful "users" that I would keep for a lifetime.

I have two brothers-in-law and my father that even though it would be an expensive and one time expenditure - if these were re-released and I were allowed to, I would probably buy three more blanks and customize them as gifts to these people that I care about. At $250 US a pop - this isn't a trivial expenditure for me - but is something that I could afford if I wanted to give my loved ones the best knife that as non-knife people that they will ever own simply because they would never ever know to want to buy. And perhaps in the case of my brothers-in-law also create an interest in collecting their own knives.

Raising the price would prohibit such a possibility. The nature of selling a blank at a very low or non-existent margin is very much appreciated but even though the cost of $250 still represents a great value for the cost - the cost would simply get to high for me to indulge my future appetites for anything more than 1 blade.

So although I would hate to see it happen and would not want it to occur. Both limiting to one knife AND raising the price - only makes these knives rarer and higher priced on the secondary market since the demand goes down and Spyderco runs would be smaller but yet people would still purchase some to markup and sell on ebay.

Whereas a re-release of the most desired runs has the effect of defusing the prices on the secondary market and still put these knives in the hands of people who want to buy them as gifts to others that may have the effect of creating more knife interest and hobbyists as a result of their own pride of ownership of such a gorgeous knife. These people in turn would be showing off their "customs" to others and generate even more interest in Spyderco's to those who might never have heard of Spyderco simply because a knife to them is just a kitchen tool they buy from Walmart. It was some pictures on the thread "Show me your Mules" that struck home the desire and interest in purchasing my first mules in S110V - what an amazing introduction to this program. I would hate to see it disappear or change in a way that makes it more onerous for me financially to indulge this unreasonable obsession of mine - or to share it with others.

The extremely good value that this knife represents allows me to indulge my desire for a unique and beautiful "custom" knife that I otherwise wouldn't have purchased. To give you some perspective - prior to Christmas I purchased my Southfork in Toronto for $260 (taxes-in) and could probably get the Bushcraft for maybe $230 (taxes-in) right about now. Both cheaper than these MT's after my own customization. Could I justify spending more than $285 Canadian for an MT in the future when I already have such an incredible option as the Southfork for a little less? Absolutely not - if I were a very wealthy man it wouldn't matter - but even as a P.Eng., which puts me well into the disappearing "middle class" - life has other costs and I have other interests that cost $ so the current price point is about perfect for me because it allows me to buy them and create my own beautiful "custom" blade that I simply wouldn't have been able to justify to myself otherwise.

I called into Spyderco after they were sold out online and was in a "begging" mood and learned that it was ONLY as a result of Spyderco monitoring orders and disallowing those people who made multiple purchases on-line and by phone that made my late purchase possible. I had also sent in an email - which had "bounced" back to my spam folder because Spyderco had email server problems in the week following the on-line sale. If Spyderco hadn't been monitoring their sales limits on their end and I hadn't taken the initiative to phone in - I tool would have been SOL on this offering. Do I feel "blessed" that I was able to get my MT's - absolutely! Would I care that the "rarity" of this knife would decrease and the secondary market price drop if Spyderco were to re-release it? Absolutely not - because ALL of the MT's really are CUSTOM knives for those that want to purchase them as users - which is the whole point of the program as I understand it. My MT's will always be one-of-a-kind and I would wish the opportunity to others for them to be able to create their own beautiful "customs" and not have to pay and additional $220 due to the secondary market price gouging. Those that WOULD purchase a re-release might be those that would or could not afford or justify spending $280 + $220 = $500 to create the same knife due to obscene secondary market pricing - especially when such great blades such as the SouthFork currently exist at a much lower price.

I haven't posted very much and my 5 cents worth (actually closer to a buck now with all this writing - or as we call it up in Canada - a "loonie") but perhaps my voice represents those that are new to the hobby, love knives and want to grow a collection and spread their enthusiasm to others. To me the MT project doesn't represent an opportunity to "test" incredible new steels - it is the opportunity to create beautiful customs that I can proudly use and perhaps show to others and create new enthusiasts. A knife in this kind of amazing steel offering where I can hand select some beautiful burl scales is simply an experience that I could not afford without the MT project. Raising prices or limiting purchasing to one will have the effect of reducing the amount of knives that get into the hands of those that truly want them.

Re-releasing and driving down secondary market prices will only put these knives into the hands of those that really want one to customize. Otherwise, no general consumer looking for a knife is going to buy an unscaled blank. Only those that are steel and/or knife enthusiasts are going to buy a blank.

(Hmmm - went over the 10, 000 character limit)........

[ManixFan]

.....................

My humble suggestion would be to carry on the program as is but then publicly make a commitment to re-release on a pre-order basis with a 25% non-refundable deposit. When enough pre-orders have accumulated then Spyderco could announce that the knives will be entering production shortly and have a cutoff date for any further pre-orders prior to production. If the person changes their mind about their purchase - then the 25% non-refundable deposit goes into Spyderco's pocket and helps with the profitability of these low margin MT blanks.

I think that this approach would both help defray the obscene ebay costs since these blackmailers can't sit on their capital forever and the demand would also drop since a lot of the people who want these knives WOULD be willing to put down a 25% deposit and wait for their own directly from Spyderco than pay 200% of the price (or more) to be able to immediately purchase it. Also putting down 25% would also allow people to save up for the knife that they might not have had the extra cash available to purchase at its original release date.

This will allow these MT blanks to get into the hands of the people who want to buy then to customize and have as users - not stored away as investments. After all, the MT program is all about getting the knives out there to be used - isn't it?

Now - off to the post office to the new additions to my family. I will post some pics in the "Show me your Mules"
thread when they are dressed up and ready for their debut.

[pete bogman]

How about no Spyderco branding? Plain box, no logo, no hole-nothing to identify the knife as a Spyderco except that it was purchased directly from Spyderco. Ebay buyer beware! I realize Spyderco's brand is incredibly valuable to them, but for the intended purpose of this project, not so much. It has become much more valuable to others.

[JNewell]

Gotta chime back in...

While a lot of these suggestions may help curb the flipping, they can also backfire and make the Mules more coveted on the flipping market. Also, it greatly overcomplicates a product that is essentially a not for profit piece for their customers... I strongly believe that we should begin with simple solutions first before trying tedious processes for SFO team to have to deal with...Might make sense for Paramilitary releases, but Mules not so much.

Raising the piece count of the obvious popular steels like S110v, K390, K294, and 10v to 1000 pieces will go a long way. It's a niche market and the more that are made, the less are left out.

Also, like I shared on my original post on this thread, limiting to one may actually be a viable option. It won't stop flippers in their tracks but it will make it harder. Example, the guy who bought NINE...With the limit, his proxy accounts and addresses from friends will be limited to one as well...And in the end more pieces will get to the end user.

Raising the count would work, but you'd have to go way higher than 1k for the hotter steels in order to really dent pricing, I think, which puts Spyderco at real economic risk if what was projected to be a hot piece turns out to be a mezzo seller, and no one can predict what kind of demand:volume ratio would be useful, at least not on any consistent basis.

I respectfully really do think that 1x/buyer wouldn't stop the abusers at all, and could, as several people pointed out earlier, actually cause more of a feeding frenzy.

I still like the idea of laser etching the buyer's name on the blade. That'd really put a crimp on speculative resales! If you were an abuser, would you want knives with your personal name floating around on eBay??? If you were buying on the resale market, wouldn't some other guy's name on your blade take a chunk of value out of the deal??? I think the answer to both is yes.

[ManixFan]

D'oh!

Post office - which is 5 min walk away from me closed at 5pm - 10 minutes ago. Now I have to wait until Monday after work.

Less typing and more attention to the time would have had them in my hands right now. Feel free to have a laugh at my expense everyone!

[QUICKSILVER]

A Modest Proposal!

We as Spyderco fans vow to not buy an aftermarket mule for 3 months. In addition we set a community standard of not paying more than 20% over initial price for the next 9 months.

As a community we have the power to hurt flippers and cut down their activity.

I will make that pledge. Will you?

Bill Maier

[FCM415]

Raising the count would work, but you'd have to go way higher than 1k for the hotter steels in order to really dent pricing, I think, which puts Spyderco at real economic risk if what was projected to be a hot piece turns out to be a mezzo seller, and no one can predict what kind of demand:volume ratio would be useful, at least not on any consistent basis.

I respectfully really do think that 1x/buyer wouldn't stop the abusers at all, and could, as several people pointed out earlier, actually cause more of a feeding frenzy.

I still like the idea of laser etching the buyer's name on the blade. That'd really put a crimp on speculative resales! If you were an abuser, would you want knives with your personal name floating around on eBay??? If you were buying on the resale market, wouldn't some other guy's name on your blade take a chunk of value out of the deal??? I think the answer to both is yes.

I hear ya, and like I said, I posted the same sentiment regarding limit of one- that it wont stop flipping. I just know that Sal is looking for simple solutions first. Raising the count (risk involved but 9cr, BD1, etc is a contrast to M4, S110v and K294) to 1000 instead of 600 on the the recent S110v AND limiting it to one would definitely have made it harder for flippers to make any significant profit. I cant quantify it but I know that it would make a difference and is a start. All the other ten step solutions that folks are posting is simply not viable. While the limit of one can increase the frenzy, the other solutions offered may as well.

I respect your judgement and the laser etching is a good idea. Adds an extra process and a little bump in price but it's the most reasonable and effective idea probably so far. The other ones while may also work are too intricate and complicated for the Mule program. We should reserve those for PM2's and Forum knives

[darkangel55555]

Make more of the high-demand ones. Get people to commit here (with a poll or something) so you can gauge production numbers?

Flippers work off hype and scarcity. Can't control the hype machine, that's for sure.

I know the Mule runs aren't necessarily a financially viable long-term plan, but a favor for the populace; they sure are purty though.

[JNewell]

I hear ya, and like I said, I posted the same sentiment regarding limit of one- that it wont stop flipping. I just know that Sal is looking for simple solutions first. Raising the count (risk involved but 9cr, BD1, etc is a contrast to M4, S110v and K294) to 1000 instead of 600 on the the recent S110v AND limiting it to one would definitely have made it harder for flippers to make any significant profit. I cant quantify it but I know that it would make a difference and is a start. All the other ten step solutions that folks are posting is simply not viable. While the limit of one can increase the frenzy, the other solutions offered may as well.

I respect your judgement and the laser etching is a good idea. Adds an extra process and a little bump in price but it's the most reasonable and effective idea probably so far. The other ones while may also work are too intricate and complicated for the Mule program. We should reserve those for PM2's and Forum knives

Yeah...simplicity & workability for Spyderco is important. They have a long track record that shows that we can trust them to do the right thing if at all possible. Trying to balance all of the considerations without damaging the value(s) of the Mule program may not be easy and may not work for all of us. Lots of good ideas and discussion here, and you know Sal will be reading it all.

[FCM415]

I really don't think dropping the limit to 1 is a good idea.

The flipper with 9 obviously would have bought 2 from each identity, so he still has his 1. And 9 extras. His 9 extras are a lot bigger draw if everyone else only has 1. Less so if everyone else can get 2.

I like the pre-order idea. I like raising the price slightly. I like making the production runs bigger. I'm not a fan of lowering the limit to 1, unless it's something like "1 pre-order per person, PLUS one that can be ordered in general delivery."

I like ordering two myself and limiting it to one will not end flipping but hear me out...

So the guy was able to buy TEN with his proxies (friends and family members info) meaning he was able to order FIVE times... These flippers only have so many friends and family to proxy from. This particular one, was able to order FIVE in that six hour period the S110v was available on the site. If he could, he would have ordered more... But he couldn't and if the limit was ONE, him and his proxies would only have been able to get FIVE pieces...Now add that with raising the number to 1000 or so pieces instead of 600 for steels like S110v (contrast to BD1 and 9Cr which are obvious slow movers) and it will be that much harder for them to turn a viable profit because this isn't KNIFE OF THE YEAR, this is the Mule team and only so many people are legit fans, more pieces means more going to end users in this very limited niche market. Ones everybody gets their share and if there are extras, the remaining pieces if any can be reopened to the mass public. Doesn't end flipping but it's a start and actually realistic that they can implement.

Like myself, we think we need two because we CAN. If the second one becomes that much of a luxury, we won't buy a second from flippers for their prices and be content with one.

[cckw]

Why are so many of you suggesting increased cost or limits be put on yourself? What have you done to deserve punishment? Sal didn't ask what burden you are willing to bear.

[xceptnl]

I came into the Mule project later than most here, but have been doing my best to find and secure older discontinued models on the secondary market for months and months. I am not one to pay retail for something unless I really want it. The Mules although a great concept and the best opportunity I have ever experienced to try these great steels and educate myself. Once I caught up to the current models I have purchased every one that has come available at the SFO. I have only purchased one of each unless I planned to give the spare to someone (this happened with the Elmax and the XHP).

I have read through 100+ posts from many of my fellow forum members and many posts offer great solutions, most of which I have no problem with. I would not be opposed to a one per customer limit to allow more users to purchase and to make it more difficult for the flippers to get the (requiring double the effort). I like the ideal of personalization at an added cost to the end user. "This is my knife, there are many like it, but this one is mine!" Most of the pre-orders I have been able to sign up for have been long term. Those situations only required me to pay a deposit, yet I would gladly have paid the full amount to ensure I had the funds when the time came to pay in full 3 months or more later. I would gladly pay in full to secure one Mule team. Other ideas like credit card tracking, address tracking, IP tracking are all ideas I would entertain hearing. As some have stated, flippers are not a dying they are multiplying. I don't think this issue needs to be addressed with one of the suggestions in this thread, but with multiples. If a user here cares enough to post a well thought out collection of ideas in this thread, they should be willing to go through the extra effort for their fellow knife brethren.

So in summary, I would be willing to Pay in FULL, months in advance, with no projected completion date, for a Mule that would be laser etched with either my name or user name or both at a cost of say $8-$10 above the cost of the Mule. In addition, should Spyderco decide to increase the cost of the Mules to allow them to employ a person that can more carefully police the pre-orders I would have no problem to ensure fewer of these over-priced, inflated Mule flips appear less and less on the secondary market. I really look forward to hearing what Sal, Eric and crew have to say about the planned action to curb these types of activities from happening. Let's all join it to try to stop the greed.

[gaj999]

Why are so many of you suggesting increased cost or limits be put on yourself? What have you done to deserve punishment? Sal didn't ask what burden you are willing to bear.

Well, fixing the problem requires that someone carry a burden. Expecting Spyderco to do it is pretty darn unreasonable. Even increasing the run quantities means that Spyderco has to spend more of it's limited production capability producing knives that bring in no profit.

Gordon

[ManixFan]

Why are so many of you suggesting increased cost or limits be put on yourself? What have you done to deserve punishment? Sal didn't ask what burden you are willing to bear.

^^^^^^ What he said, x1000.

Why make things worse for those who are not flipping for profit?
Also - why make people deface their own knives with etchings? I for one don't want to be treated like an elementary school kid who needs their name sewn into their clothing. What if I want to dress one up and give it to a special loved one - with my name on it?
Doesn't make sense. Then ONLY thing that makes sense is the supply/demand model of the free market. Deflate the 2ndry market prices by increasing the supply - if the price goes up marginally for a 2nd run simply because the economies of scale aren't there to sell a 2nd run of 400-500 at the same price as an initial run of 1000 - then so be it. $110 for a 2nd run instead of $90 for a first is still much preferable to double that or more on the 2ndry market for high demand blades.

Too many people saying that a 2nd pre-ordered, 25% down non-refundable run is not feasible. How do they know? I don't ......and I am a pretty bright guy myself. The only person who knows whether this approach is feasible are the number crunchers working for Spyderco.

If they feel it isn't feasible then - so be it.....look for another solution (that is non-punishing to Spyderco collectors) or live with the existing problem which is still not as bad as punishing ourselves with higher prices and purchase limits of one - which the poster to which I've replied has stated so succinctly and accurately.