jtoler_9 wrote:This was a long thread and I need a life. I still don't think I have an opinion yet. :confused:
I do know that there is a movie coming out where some whales are trapped underneath a bunch of Ice. If only there was a way to melt all the ice to save all those whales. Plus ice is so cold. I'm surprised you didn't know that.
No worries, it's Hollyweird. They'll find a way to save those whales without mentioning that it's still cold up there. :)
Personally, I love the cold. This past Winter wasn't quite the record-breaker like the last one or the one before it. So, we did see Al Gore stick his head out of his hiding hole and try to fool everyone again. He'll be back in the Summer though. Hey, if you repeat a lie long enough; people will buy it.
"The World is insane, with small pockets of sanity here & there. Not the other way around."
Just an illustration on how Global Warming can make things colder ...
The UK is at roughly the same latitude as Canada and the colder parts of Russia but we have a mild climate with virtually no snow because the Gulf Stream brings warm water across the Atlantic and this warms north western Europe. This current is part of a complex chain of currents, caused partly by cycles of warm & cold water - cold water falls & warm water rises - basic physics but on a global scale.
Now, the biggest sources of cold water flowing to the sea are the polar ice caps. If they melt faster than usual (and they are melting faster than they have ever melted) then this pushes more cold water into the system and can disrupt the oceanic currents so that the Gulf Stream is directed somewhere else ... and the UK's average temperatures will fall like a stone, making us more like the rest of Northern Europe.
The planet is a big place with lots of temperature variation across it but if it gets warmer on average that doesn't mean higher temperatures everywhere - it just means that more energy is fed into the system and weather patterns that we have all grown up on and depend on will change. We are already seeing long-standing rainfall patterns changing, which inevitably leads to droughts and famine in places like the Horn of Africa. This could extend to monsoons in Asia that vast populations depend on for the production of staple foods like rice.
Also, we know that weather changes all the time ... heck if it didn't we'd not have anything to talk about to our neighbours. In a system with little energy these changes happen slowly and methodically - but if you inject more energy (like a caffeine boost) into the system then these changes will happen faster and more violently. Hurricanes & tornadoes become commoner and more powerful ... droughts become longer ... floods become heavier.
We don't all have to agree that humans have caused it ... but to deny that the last 20 years have seen huge shifts in weather patterns seems to me like sticking your head in the sand. You don't need to be a meteorologist - just watch the news or keep your own weather records. We still have normal weather most of the time but records have been broken more and more frequently in the last 20 years.
ChrisR wrote:Just an illustration on how Global Warming can make things colder ...
We don't all have to agree that humans have caused it ... but to deny that the last 20 years have seen huge shifts in weather patterns seems to me like sticking your head in the sand. You don't need to be a meteorologist - just watch the news or keep your own weather records. We still have normal weather most of the time but records have been broken more and more frequently in the last 20 years.
I don't think there's any doubt that humans are at least partially responsible. As you say, the changes over the past 20 years have been huge by historical standards. It's too bad that we don't have accurate records of what things like the ozone layer were like prior to the industrial revolution.
To assume that we can pump millions of tons of pollutants into our atmosphere without altering it would be "playing ostrich", to say the least.
Maybe it's just a case of the "good old days" syndrome, but I could swear the winters were colder when I was a kid. I'm 65 and can remember winters in New York City being a lot colder and with a lot more snow than we've had over the past decade. Weather will certainly vary from year to year and I have no scientific basis for my feelings, but I do have a lot of friends who feel the same about this.
This cap and tax nonsense sounds like the politicians typical tactic of kicking the can further down the road. I won't even get into the job losses that would result and we've already seen the corruption resulting from the big money being thrown at the so-called solution. All these promises of clean energy out of Washington have turned into what that city produces in abundance.....hot air!
Chris, if you get a moment can you let me know how this article was received in the UK? My guess is there are a higher number of true believers there who wouldn't want to hear it.
Met Office releases new figures which show no warming in 15 years
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
The Mastiff wrote:Chris, if you get a moment can you let me know how this article was received in the UK? My guess is there are a higher number of true believers there who wouldn't want to hear it.
Hi Joe
It's certainly an interesting article and I hope that it is true - really. My only worry is that it appears in a right-wing rag of a newspaper, which has a long history of jumping on stories, "massaging" the truth and then running with their own agenda. If I could see the source data then I'd be happier but I have Googled and I can't really see the story in the Met Office's own words.
On the Met Office's own website though they say:
5. Has the climate changed recently?
Natural sources, such as tree rings and glaciers, as well as human records, show that climate has changed significantly over the past few hundred years. There was a relatively warm period in Europe during the 14th century, followed by a quite sudden change to cooler conditions in the 15th century. This extended into the Little Ice Age of the 17th and 18th centuries, followed by a warming trend that has recently accelerated. The evidence for this recent warming comes largely from direct measurements of temperature. In the more temperate northern latitudes, winters are less severe than 30 years ago, with cold snaps generally being short-lived.
The ten warmest years on record have occurred since 1998 (as of July 2011). 2010 saw a relatively strong La Niña, but globally was still one of the warmest years on record.
It might be out of date though ... maybe they are going to make more of their recent findings later. :)
I'd still say that 15 years is a short time to analyse but if the hottest 10 years in history (taken over 150-200 years) have all been since 1998 then that is still very significant. Perhaps it is a peak ... I hope to God that it is.
Thanks Chris. About what I thought. It's about the same here for anything coming from Fox, or MSNBC, respectively. Just talking to their own audience with little outside interest or note.
One thing I feel is that debating between people with their minds made up already one way or another is senseless and merely increases disharmony.
Thank you,
Regards,
Joe/raleigh
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
The real truth about environementalist is they don't give a rats *ss about the environement. What they are really against is Capitalism. They felt left behind and can't compete. That is the real truth.
We would not let our people have ideas why would we let them have guns? Josef Stalin
This is not intended to prove either "side" on this issue is right or wrong. What is does give credence to, is the fact there is clear evidence of politicization of the issue. If anyone says they can prove to me what the weather will be 1 year, 10 years, or a 100 years from now, I would call them a liar. To be certain, there is climate change. There always has been and always will be. That is the nature of our planet. To create a political agenda and spend my tax dollars to forward this agenda is where I have a problem. Creating a global movement to forward a global political agenda is not science, it's politics and payola.
