Fozzy, I know I shouldn't even say this, but I'm going to anyway. I know a lot of police officers around here. Male, female, young, old, state, county, and city. I don't know of one that could pass the bar exam. They know quite a bit about the law, but not enough to pose as lawyers or judges. And all laws are written by lawyers in their own special language that they can interpret to mean whatever someone is paying them to make it mean.
Most of those officers are good people. A few aren't. Some really are bullies and/or power tripping. Most of those don't seem to last long around here. For years there was a suburb of Detroit that referred to us as their police academy, since they hired so many of our officers away. They even seemed to prefer the ones with a major attitude. For all I know, some of them could have gone on to NYC. The officer in this case could have been one of them. Who knows?
I have had enough amicable dealings with police in the past that I meant nothing derogatory when I said the knife is gone. Even here, where laws are much more lax, the property and evidence department destroys boxes of knives every year. It is department policy never to release a knife or gun without a court order. Some people will go to that expense for a gun, but seldom will someone pay a lawyer $250 or more to recover even a $100 knife. So once it goes into evidence, it is gone for good as far as the owner is concerned.
As far as the actual charges go, I wouldn't consider having a knife clipped inside your pocket to be brandishing, but I am not a cop or a lawyer or a New Yorker (thank GOD). I still think the best chance he has of being aquitted is the officer failing to appear for the court date, because the judge will believe whatever the officer says, and nothing the defendent says (after all, they are on the same team). If that sounds cynical, too bad. That is the voice of experience speaking. Even if everyone sticks to the bare facts, the officer SAW the knife, or at least enough of it to identify it as such, even if the rest of the people there either didn't notice or didn't care. With the purposefully vague wording of the law, that is enough to make it a violation.
Do I consider that to be just and proper? Nope. Do I consider the laws in New York City to be stupid? Yep. Do I consider ALL knife and gun laws to be stupid? Yep. Does my opinion change any of them? Nope. The law is the law, for better or worse. My advice, for what little it is worth, is the same as I stated before: tell the judge you didn't intend to violate the law, and you thought you were complying up until the officer told you different. Write off the knife, chalk the whole thing up to experience and put it behind you before it gives you ulcers.
Worst nightmare came true: PD confiscated my ParaMilitary..
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yablanowitz
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- Location: Liberal, Kansas
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eljay
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- Location: Northern California USA
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That's my experience as well. My cop friends make a good effort to know the law but it's just impossible to be an expert on all of it. And weapons laws are pretty arcane - they mostly seem to reply on some snap judgement as to if the person should have the weapon or not. Frankly even the good ones pretty much seem to count on people not knowing the law themselves or not having the cash to do something about it.yablanowitz wrote:Fozzy, I know I shouldn't even say this, but I'm going to anyway. I know a lot of police officers around here. Male, female, young, old, state, county, and city. I don't know of one that could pass the bar exam. They know quite a bit about the law, but not enough to pose as lawyers or judges. [...]
Most of those officers are good people. A few aren't. Some really are bullies and/or power tripping. [...]
And yeah, I hear about a cop confiscating property without giving a receipt and I think there's a real chance he's just keeping it. Not for sure, not even 50/50, but a real chance.
Just down the street from me the local PD ran a brothel sting. Two cops from the next town - on duty - were caught there asking for sex for money. In their van were thousands of dollars of cash and tens of thousands of dollars in drugs they'd seized in arrests and not booked into evidence.
It happens. It's also evidence that the system works - there was no "professional courtesy" here, they arrested them just like anybody else.
So yeah, there are two sides to every story... but if you're surprised that folks don't trust cops or assume they're always in the right, well, there's a reason for that.
A ticket (summons) was issued. What are the charges listed? I'd like to look into it.
Depending on jurisdiction, a property receipt isn't issued for contraband. I.E, I wouldn't give a drug dealer a property receipt for the crack-cocaine I seized from him/her.
Since a summons was issued, I'm also going to assume that an Incident Report was prepared, and the knife was listed in that report, along with the knife's Chain-Of-Custody.
During the court hearing, the actual knife should be brought into the courtroom and entered as evidence into the hearing. Obviously, if you're found guilty, you won't get the knife back.
--dan
Depending on jurisdiction, a property receipt isn't issued for contraband. I.E, I wouldn't give a drug dealer a property receipt for the crack-cocaine I seized from him/her.
Since a summons was issued, I'm also going to assume that an Incident Report was prepared, and the knife was listed in that report, along with the knife's Chain-Of-Custody.
During the court hearing, the actual knife should be brought into the courtroom and entered as evidence into the hearing. Obviously, if you're found guilty, you won't get the knife back.
--dan
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guntotin_fool
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Fozzy, your state has LAWS against the Constitution of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and you work to enforce those laws.
I was born in Massachusetts. I used to own property on the Cape and in the berkshires, I sold it all, WHY? because as a land owner and tax payer I was DENIED my Civil Rights by the State.
I can not travel conveniently in the State because I am forced to give up my arms, even though I have never committed a crime and never been arrested. I used to drive from my current home to visit cousins in Massachusetts and then drive up to Maine to go hunting. To do so now, I risk a 5 year automatic jail term for carrying my guns.
Your State routinely violates Article IV, section 1 of the US Constitution. Which states "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect there of."
In other words, MY state grants me the right to drive a car, exercise my marital rights and the RIGHT to carry a firearm. All legal and Constitutional, your state Denies me that right.
I have dealt with NYC and will never go there again, MY professional Association voted last year to stay away from NY and Mass and a few others as they have decided they are above the Constitution of the United States of America.
I do not post on here a lot, but when I read stuff defending police state activities, unreasonable searches, and seizures of property without compensation or cause, I get really annoyed at the pontificating that goes on to justify it.
Your state was started on the basis of freedom from an unreasonable Government. You have far surpassed the levels that led to the first Revolution.
I was born in Massachusetts. I used to own property on the Cape and in the berkshires, I sold it all, WHY? because as a land owner and tax payer I was DENIED my Civil Rights by the State.
I can not travel conveniently in the State because I am forced to give up my arms, even though I have never committed a crime and never been arrested. I used to drive from my current home to visit cousins in Massachusetts and then drive up to Maine to go hunting. To do so now, I risk a 5 year automatic jail term for carrying my guns.
Your State routinely violates Article IV, section 1 of the US Constitution. Which states "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect there of."
In other words, MY state grants me the right to drive a car, exercise my marital rights and the RIGHT to carry a firearm. All legal and Constitutional, your state Denies me that right.
I have dealt with NYC and will never go there again, MY professional Association voted last year to stay away from NY and Mass and a few others as they have decided they are above the Constitution of the United States of America.
I do not post on here a lot, but when I read stuff defending police state activities, unreasonable searches, and seizures of property without compensation or cause, I get really annoyed at the pontificating that goes on to justify it.
Your state was started on the basis of freedom from an unreasonable Government. You have far surpassed the levels that led to the first Revolution.
Garageboy, sorry for your loss.
To me this whole issue looks like the cop wanted to test his "power of law" and he apparently misinterpreted the law about gravity knife, just to prove you he can take your knife, just because he feels like for it. Especially when you was just plain walking and not doing anything what could be considered as threatening or hazardous to other people around you.
Makes me feel really strange, just yesterday saw something what could have end up like a bloody incident, a couple of nazi youth had "something" with another three normal looking guys, in a public lift and one of the nazis had a 12" fixed blade combined with knuckles on his hand and accopanied it with talking in manner like "I should not walk here like this, because something could happen to somebody.." - what was directly ment as a threat to the other guys.. :eek:
This happened on public space, no cops around - as the habbit is here - and I was really thinking how would I proceed in such a situation and how possible it is that a s**mbag like that can walk with a fighter exposed in public. :eek:
So it makes me quite sick about the differences, you walked the station with a knife in your pocket and had trouble...
Good luck in the court, sadly I am not familiar with US local law, so I cant help you with that.
To me this whole issue looks like the cop wanted to test his "power of law" and he apparently misinterpreted the law about gravity knife, just to prove you he can take your knife, just because he feels like for it. Especially when you was just plain walking and not doing anything what could be considered as threatening or hazardous to other people around you.
Makes me feel really strange, just yesterday saw something what could have end up like a bloody incident, a couple of nazi youth had "something" with another three normal looking guys, in a public lift and one of the nazis had a 12" fixed blade combined with knuckles on his hand and accopanied it with talking in manner like "I should not walk here like this, because something could happen to somebody.." - what was directly ment as a threat to the other guys.. :eek:
This happened on public space, no cops around - as the habbit is here - and I was really thinking how would I proceed in such a situation and how possible it is that a s**mbag like that can walk with a fighter exposed in public. :eek:
So it makes me quite sick about the differences, you walked the station with a knife in your pocket and had trouble...
Good luck in the court, sadly I am not familiar with US local law, so I cant help you with that.
"Having a dull knife is like having a stupid friend."
That's the spirit! Don't take the frustrations of other people on yourGarageBoy wrote:Okay, again, I'm cited with "knife in plain view." That's it, nothing else. I do not want to bring more trouble with me to court.
Thanks again!
shoulders. And than again "your worst nightmare came true"????
If that would be the worst thing that can happen in a mans life........ :) :) :)
AUDACIA MAGIA EST
Really?
Couldn't pass the bar exam? Really? I won't even get into those who have passed the bar exam (and who knows how many times they had to take it) who are absolutely horrible in a criminal court. I also won't get into the fact that most lawyers stay in the realm of real estate, business, and civil law, as more money is there. These guys, in general, don't have the knowledge of criminal law that a recent graduate of a good police academy does. But let's get into not passing the bar exam. The guy sitting next to me in my office is a lawyer and can practice in two states. He is a federal officer. I have known many attorneys who are active law enforcement officers. I do not have a law degree, though, admittedly, I have a few years of college behind me (post graduate level), and I am often sought out by those in my agency, including attorneys, in regard to weapon related offenses and organized crime matters. Why? Because I have lots of experience in investigating these matters, both as a local cop and as a fed. I also have testified in court on these types of matters on numerous occasions.yablanowitz wrote:Fozzy, I know I shouldn't even say this, but I'm going to anyway. I know a lot of police officers around here. Male, female, young, old, state, county, and city. I don't know of one that could pass the bar exam. They know quite a bit about the law, but not enough to pose as lawyers or judges. And all laws are written by lawyers in their own special language that they can interpret to mean whatever someone is paying them to make it mean.
Most of those officers are good people. A few aren't. Some really are bullies and/or power tripping. Most of those don't seem to last long around here. For years there was a suburb of Detroit that referred to us as their police academy, since they hired so many of our officers away. They even seemed to prefer the ones with a major attitude. For all I know, some of them could have gone on to NYC. The officer in this case could have been one of them. Who knows?
I have had enough amicable dealings with police in the past that I meant nothing derogatory when I said the knife is gone. Even here, where laws are much more lax, the property and evidence department destroys boxes of knives every year. It is department policy never to release a knife or gun without a court order. Some people will go to that expense for a gun, but seldom will someone pay a lawyer $250 or more to recover even a $100 knife. So once it goes into evidence, it is gone for good as far as the owner is concerned.
As far as the actual charges go, I wouldn't consider having a knife clipped inside your pocket to be brandishing, but I am not a cop or a lawyer or a New Yorker (thank GOD). I still think the best chance he has of being aquitted is the officer failing to appear for the court date, because the judge will believe whatever the officer says, and nothing the defendent says (after all, they are on the same team). If that sounds cynical, too bad. That is the voice of experience speaking. Even if everyone sticks to the bare facts, the officer SAW the knife, or at least enough of it to identify it as such, even if the rest of the people there either didn't notice or didn't care. With the purposefully vague wording of the law, that is enough to make it a violation.
Do I consider that to be just and proper? Nope. Do I consider the laws in New York City to be stupid? Yep. Do I consider ALL knife and gun laws to be stupid? Yep. Does my opinion change any of them? Nope. The law is the law, for better or worse. My advice, for what little it is worth, is the same as I stated before: tell the judge you didn't intend to violate the law, and you thought you were complying up until the officer told you different. Write off the knife, chalk the whole thing up to experience and put it behind you before it gives you ulcers.
I am not going to let this thing degenerate into a cops vs. attorneys or cops vs. everyday citizens debate. There are excellent attorneys who are fine people, there are good cops, and great citizens. There are also scum in all of these three categories. I suggest you generalize a little less.
As for Fozzy--Thanks for the insightful post. I was considering posting something similar. You stepped up to the plate. Thanks.
"There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee
"The most pervasive and least condemned form of dishonesty is not doing the best you can." Colonel Jeff Cooper
"The most pervasive and least condemned form of dishonesty is not doing the best you can." Colonel Jeff Cooper
We need cops. I've needed cops more than once. And more than once I was flushed with relief when I saw those pretty lights and a few times I've been flush with fear (teenage years)..
thing is you can just never tell how things will turn out with such interesting people, sometimes they don't seem to make any sense at all.. One time I was providing all of the entertainment, security, and equipment for a black tie event downtown, a local paper's anniversary party.. anyway one of the security guards got into the free drinks and by the end of the night was walking around with his shirt unbuttoned, showing off his abs, sixpack, and what not and then he began goosing some of the women that were working concession etc, when we confronted him and asked him to leave, nicely!! he went crazy on us, started pushing a roadie and accusing us of racism! I had to fend him off with the heavy end of a mic stand, not hitting him mind you more like how a lion tamer uses his chair, hahaha quite the scene!! One of the girls dialed 911 and when the police got there they told us to go home or be arrested.. tghey would not even let us tell them what happened..we were in the middle of loading thousands and thousands of dollars worth of gear into a semi but it didn't matter, we were told to leave the stuff or go to jail, they wouldn't say what we would be going to jail for..the drunk security guard got to stay and some remaining guests who had stuck around to help with the situation and the concession girls had to finish loading up the truck... I gave them the lock and came back hours later.. I just can't understand the way that went down.. I felt betrayed because I was flush with relief when the cops pulled up because this guy was going to hurt someone.. I can only assume the drunk, *** grabbing guard was an off duty cop but I can;t be sure, first thing they did was pull him aside and huddle up for about 5 minutes.. there aint no two sides to this story I promise you.
So do I hate cops? No way, we need them, us law abiding citizens need them to HELP maintain order but I do prefer to avoid them whenever possible, even if I'm the victim. You just never can tell who is having a bad day. Also, I understand the filth and BS they have to put up with everyday. It could be worse, you could be a crab fisherman off the coast of Alaska.
thing is you can just never tell how things will turn out with such interesting people, sometimes they don't seem to make any sense at all.. One time I was providing all of the entertainment, security, and equipment for a black tie event downtown, a local paper's anniversary party.. anyway one of the security guards got into the free drinks and by the end of the night was walking around with his shirt unbuttoned, showing off his abs, sixpack, and what not and then he began goosing some of the women that were working concession etc, when we confronted him and asked him to leave, nicely!! he went crazy on us, started pushing a roadie and accusing us of racism! I had to fend him off with the heavy end of a mic stand, not hitting him mind you more like how a lion tamer uses his chair, hahaha quite the scene!! One of the girls dialed 911 and when the police got there they told us to go home or be arrested.. tghey would not even let us tell them what happened..we were in the middle of loading thousands and thousands of dollars worth of gear into a semi but it didn't matter, we were told to leave the stuff or go to jail, they wouldn't say what we would be going to jail for..the drunk security guard got to stay and some remaining guests who had stuck around to help with the situation and the concession girls had to finish loading up the truck... I gave them the lock and came back hours later.. I just can't understand the way that went down.. I felt betrayed because I was flush with relief when the cops pulled up because this guy was going to hurt someone.. I can only assume the drunk, *** grabbing guard was an off duty cop but I can;t be sure, first thing they did was pull him aside and huddle up for about 5 minutes.. there aint no two sides to this story I promise you.
So do I hate cops? No way, we need them, us law abiding citizens need them to HELP maintain order but I do prefer to avoid them whenever possible, even if I'm the victim. You just never can tell who is having a bad day. Also, I understand the filth and BS they have to put up with everyday. It could be worse, you could be a crab fisherman off the coast of Alaska.
spyder spyder spyder spyder
No, we have no idea what the officers felt. We only know what the OP said they did.Fozzy wrote:The officers clearly felt that there was a violation.
Knowing this, you should be more careful about throwing around phrases like "there's your violation". If the law is not clear, then one can not be said to clearly break it."Brandishing" is one of those words that lawyers argue over on both sides. So is "gravity knife." Case law shapes the way laws are applied.
The OP left his house with it and came back without it. What part do you need explained?There are a few posts here essentially accusing the officers of stealing the knife. Based on what?
Most people here consider it wrong to be deprived of their possessions by threat of force, yes.Many of you have already thrown the officers under the bus and backed over them once or twice. With the exception of GarageBoy, none of us were there. Yet with half the facts, a number of you have made the determination that the officers were wrong.
If GarageBoy´s has committed a violation because the cops could see his Paramili that was cliped inside a pocket and this is like a speeding ticket, the cops could have told him to put it deeper in his pocket and wrote him a ticket (like it is with overspeeding) because of carrying it in plain view. If they would have known the law and would have known what gravity knives are, they must have not taken the Paramili away, that is definitely no gravity knife or is it in NYC like it is maybe on the Canadian Boarder?
In Germany AFAIK a "gravity knife" is a folding knife that falls open by gravity or can be flicked open with using the gravity AFTER A MECHANISM WAS RELEASED. This mechanism can not be the lock that keeps the knife open. It has to be a (second) mechanism that holds the knife closed against gravity. By this definition the Paramili is definitely no "gravity knife" in Germany.
If they use another definition for "gravity knife" in NYC, for instance "any folding knife that can be flicked open", this could end up in calling nearly any folder "gravity knife". Would this be true, they could simplify the law by writing down: folders are not allowed to carry in NYC.
What doesn´t fit is the summons because of plain view and the confiscating of the knife. The knife itself can not proof it was carried in plain view. It could only proof it is a gravity knife. Plus the cops surely don´t need the knife as corpus delicti to proof it´s the exact knife they saw. Otherwise every car would have to be confiscated to proof in which exact vehicle the driver had overspeeded.
Thus it would be helpful to know what is the exact definition of gravity knife in the law and also helpful it would be if authorities (maybe the police) would show by means of some popular folders which ones are allowed and which ones not. Authorities should have an interest to help people act law-abiding without concealing what their rights are.
The situation seems to be a bit like in Germany. The weapons law is partly spongy and authorities see no need to explain what they exactly mean with it. To have a knife checked for legality costs about 400 Euro. It seems the caused ambiguity and missing assistance is not unintentional and shall keep more people from carrying knives.
Best wishes,
JB
In Germany AFAIK a "gravity knife" is a folding knife that falls open by gravity or can be flicked open with using the gravity AFTER A MECHANISM WAS RELEASED. This mechanism can not be the lock that keeps the knife open. It has to be a (second) mechanism that holds the knife closed against gravity. By this definition the Paramili is definitely no "gravity knife" in Germany.
If they use another definition for "gravity knife" in NYC, for instance "any folding knife that can be flicked open", this could end up in calling nearly any folder "gravity knife". Would this be true, they could simplify the law by writing down: folders are not allowed to carry in NYC.
What doesn´t fit is the summons because of plain view and the confiscating of the knife. The knife itself can not proof it was carried in plain view. It could only proof it is a gravity knife. Plus the cops surely don´t need the knife as corpus delicti to proof it´s the exact knife they saw. Otherwise every car would have to be confiscated to proof in which exact vehicle the driver had overspeeded.
Thus it would be helpful to know what is the exact definition of gravity knife in the law and also helpful it would be if authorities (maybe the police) would show by means of some popular folders which ones are allowed and which ones not. Authorities should have an interest to help people act law-abiding without concealing what their rights are.
The situation seems to be a bit like in Germany. The weapons law is partly spongy and authorities see no need to explain what they exactly mean with it. To have a knife checked for legality costs about 400 Euro. It seems the caused ambiguity and missing assistance is not unintentional and shall keep more people from carrying knives.
Best wishes,
JB
We need locking :spyder: folders, at least a D4, with very small :spyder:holes (no one-hand function, only trademark) for legal carry in Germany!
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
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yablanowitz
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- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:16 pm
- Location: Liberal, Kansas
Last post on the subject. My point (which you apparently missed) was the difference between a policeman and a lawyer is the same as the difference between an EMT and a doctor. Yes, a doctor could work as an EMT. Yes, an EMT will know something, probably quite a lot, about medicine. That does not make him a doctor. There may be lots of cops where you are that are lawyers as well. It isn't true here. We don't have any doctors riding the ambulances either. We rely on the EMT to know enough about medicine to save our lives, just as we rely on the policeman to know enough about the law to enforce it properly. Usually, that is what happens.KaliGman wrote:Couldn't pass the bar exam? Really? I won't even get into those who have passed the bar exam (and who knows how many times they had to take it) who are absolutely horrible in a criminal court. I also won't get into the fact that most lawyers stay in the realm of real estate, business, and civil law, as more money is there. These guys, in general, don't have the knowledge of criminal law that a recent graduate of a good police academy does. But let's get into not passing the bar exam. The guy sitting next to me in my office is a lawyer and can practice in two states. He is a federal officer. I have known many attorneys who are active law enforcement officers. I do not have a law degree, though, admittedly, I have a few years of college behind me (post graduate level), and I am often sought out by those in my agency, including attorneys, in regard to weapon related offenses and organized crime matters. Why? Because I have lots of experience in investigating these matters, both as a local cop and as a fed. I also have testified in court on these types of matters on numerous occasions.
I am not going to let this thing degenerate into a cops vs. attorneys or cops vs. everyday citizens debate. There are excellent attorneys who are fine people, there are good cops, and great citizens. There are also scum in all of these three categories. I suggest you generalize a little less.
As for Fozzy--Thanks for the insightful post. I was considering posting something similar. You stepped up to the plate. Thanks.
Do I think the officer in this case was in the wrong? No, I think the LAW is wrong, but that doesn't keep it from being the law. Fortunately for me, I can't imagine any circumstance where I will ever be subject to New York City, county or state law. I intend to keep it that way.
I don't believe in safe queens, only in pre-need replacements.
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eljay
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Well, you don't really need the comparison anyway. Lawyers don't know all the law, cops don't know all the law. I have a relative who's a land surveyor who runs into this all the time - land law is its own thing and people who don't specialize in it are less than useless. He makes really good expert witness money ripping lawyers to shreds because somebody hired the wrong kind of lawyer who doesn't really know the details of land law. I'd believe a licensed land surveyor any day on a point of land law over a cop or lawyer.tortoise wrote:A doctor could work as an EMT, but an attorney certainly could not work as a police officer.
I do take your point, but that particular analogy is insultingly flawed.
You might think a NY cop would know knife laws well since they deal with knives a lot... makes sense off the cuff, doesn't it? But usually what they usually practice isn't too far off the common sense version of the law many of us carry in our heads. It's great day to day but it's not perfect.
Believe me, this isn't an anti-cop sentiment - it's more about the overly complex laws than the cops or the lawyers.
Now the confisication - that sets off all my "bad cop" sensors, but I think I'll leave it at that for now.
He wrote the Admin Code for the knife in public view, he must voucher the knife. Nothing mysterious about it.eljay wrote:Now the confisication - that sets off all my "bad cop" sensors, but I think I'll leave it at that for now.
The notion some seem to have that an officer would steal a knife, then make an official report about it (a summons) is tinfoil hat stuff. Once he writes that summons, he must be able to show where that knife went, and "In his pocket" simply will not do.
The deal is: the officer cannot write someone a summons for a knife, and then send the defendant on his way in possession of that knife, any more than he can write a summons for marijuana and send the defendant away still in possession of his joint. He also can't pocket the knife. The knife now "exists" officially, it's evidence, and must be accounted for with a voucher.
I hope at least someone will find this helpful.
Read this: From the NYC Administration Code: § 10-133 Possession of knives or instruments. a. Legislative findings.
It is hereby declared and found that the possession in public places,
streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public
health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the
possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has
resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and
assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition
encourages and fosters the commission of crimes, and contributes to
juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the
possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city
of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger
of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to
public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that
the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while
such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and
threatening to the public and should be prohibited.
b. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person
or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street, or
park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.
c. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or
park, to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any
knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually
using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of
this section.
But I'm starting to think this thread is deceptive, but that's just my opinion.
It is hereby declared and found that the possession in public places,
streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public
health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the
possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has
resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and
assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition
encourages and fosters the commission of crimes, and contributes to
juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the
possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city
of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger
of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to
public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that
the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while
such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and
threatening to the public and should be prohibited.
b. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person
or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street, or
park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.
c. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or
park, to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any
knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually
using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of
this section.
But I'm starting to think this thread is deceptive, but that's just my opinion.
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peacefuljeffrey
- Member
- Posts: 1192
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am
Just imagine if garageboy had been caught carrying the Cold Steel AK-47 knife! :eek:CRS wrote:PS....
If you think carrying a Spyderco in NY is tough...try carrying a pro digital camera around. One would think I was carrying an AK47...I kid you not
He'd be with the enemy combatants in guantanamo right now!!
-PJ
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."
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peacefuljeffrey
- Member
- Posts: 1192
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am
Well, the laws are set up so that anyone who wants to do something reasonable, like carry a tool (knife) is automatically doing something "wrong."Fozzy wrote:Believe it or not, there are people out there who shouldn't have knives in public. There are people who can't control their temper or who want to rob or intimidate others. Since people aren't clairvoyant and can't know who is a criminal and who is a law abiding citizen, laws are passed. Sometimes, people who are otherwise law abiding run afoul of the law.
Why? Because "laws are passed" to address those "people who can't control their temper or who want to rob or intimidate others." The problem is, in the misguided attempt to control those people (an attempt that never works, by the way!), everyone else is restricted in terms of what is permitted behavior. It's absurd, and it's wrong.
-PJ
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."
Fortunately for the OP, he was indeed carrying his knife home from work, where he uses it. If I ever find myself in NYC (something which is currently completely out of the question) I'll be going to or from a picnic or hike at all times.
D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.
D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.
dano wrote: c. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or
park, to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any
knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually
using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of
this section.
Those who give up their freedom for safety will soon find that they have neither.[SIZE="-1"][/size]