Military 2. What exactly is going on?

[vivi]

I just reprofiled an S30V C95 tonight and holy **** did it take a nice edge. 200 grit diamond plate followed by an ultrafine spyderco stone microbevel. Wave it a few mm over my arm and arm hairs abondon ship. People that don't like S30V are silly.

[kennethsime]

I just reprofiled an S30V C95 tonight and holy **** did it take a nice edge. 200 grit diamond plate followed by an ultrafine spyderco stone microbevel. Wave it a few mm over my arm and arm hairs abondon ship. People that don't like S30V are silly.

That certainly is a big hunk of the stuff!

I have S30V in a Para 3 and a Bugout, and think it’s pretty good stuff too. I have S45V in a Sebenza, and think it’s also nice. Man, are we spoiled.

[SpyderForLyfe]

The initial Mil2’s will be S30V, according to dealers’ product descriptions.

Ugh... FFS

Humor me here: how can you tell the difference between the two?

Based solely on the 14 Spyders I currently own, S45 is a brighter steel, so there's the aesthetic of it for me. My PM2 has a much brighter, cleaner appearance than my native, for example. But looks don't matter, and that could very well be all in my head. To me, my PM2 just looks better.

When you get an oil change and you pay extra for the synthetic oil, can you tell the difference? You don't buy it because of that, you buy it because technology has progressed and it's a better product that will serve you better.

S45VN is a better steel and it has become the standard steel of the rest of the line, has it not? So why not the military?

I don't think there's a person here that hasn't jumped on as Sprint based at least partly on the blade steel.

It's a new knife with an old steel. How can you not see that as a down side? Especially with what they're likely to charge for this knife.

So based on the steel alone, I'm going to pass on this knife.

[JSumm]

I would like to see S45VN on the Military. I will not say however that it is better than S30V. S30V is slightly more wear resistant. Probably due to the increased Vanadium. That is more important to some. S45VN appears to be slightly tougher with a finer grain structure, so my guess it may take a nice edge slightly easier, but S30V is no slouch there. Maybe the edge on S45VN holds up a little better to damage. I can't imagine these two steels are worlds apart in real world performance. My preference would be for S45VN, but I would not say it is better than S30V. Just different.

[gunmike1]

I just reprofiled an S30V C95 tonight and holy **** did it take a nice edge. 200 grit diamond plate followed by an ultrafine spyderco stone microbevel. Wave it a few mm over my arm and arm hairs abondon ship. People that don't like S30V are silly.

My C95 responds great to sharpening. It was Rockwell tested by Phil Wilson at 58.5 RC, which seemed surprisingly low based on how good it sharpened and held a edge compared to previous S30V I had dealt with when I got it way back when. Just shows that the Rockwell hardness doesn’t always tell the whole story.

[sup3rnaut]

I understand some people being disappointed that the Mil2 will initially be produced with a S30V blade, as it’s “old news” in today’s market.

However, when it comes to the steel’s performance; S30V holds up as a great general purpose knife steel. S45VN has a slightly different composition, (most notably the inclusion of Niobium), but it’s not necessarily “better”.

Also, I’ve only been messing around with S30V, S45VN, CruWear, S90V, M4 etc for less than a year, so I’m far from “bored” with S30V, at this point.

Also also, it seems like new models from Golden always start their production lives with S30V steel.

As an example; Cutlery Shoppe initially offered runs of satin and DLC S30V Wharncliffe PM2’s, with black G-10 scales. Only in subsequent runs were the Wharnie PM2’s made with XHP and blaze orange G-10. I tend to suspect that CSI wanted their signature XHP and blaze orange scales from the start, but were required to take on the initial runs in S30V because the Wharncliffe was a new blade shape for the PM2.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[SpyderForLyfe]

I understand some people being disappointed that the Mil2 will initially be produced with a S30V blade, as it’s “old news” in today’s market.

However, when it comes to the steel’s performance; S30V holds up as a great general purpose knife steel. S45VN has a slightly different composition, (most notably the inclusion of Niobium), but it’s not necessarily “better”.

Also, I’ve only been messing around with S30V, S45VN, CruWear, S90V, M4 etc for less than a year, so I’m far from “bored” with S30V, at this point.

Also also, it seems like new models from Golden always start their production lives with S30V steel.

As an example; Cutlery Shoppe initially offered runs of satin and DLC S30V Wharncliffe PM2’s, with black G-10 scales. Only in subsequent runs were the Wharnie PM2’s made with XHP and blaze orange G-10. I tend to suspect that CSI wanted their signature XHP and blaze orange scales from the start, but were required to take on the initial runs in S30V because the Wharncliffe was a new blade shape for the PM2.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That's fair. And a good point. All the youtube videos I watch, people always heap higher praise on S45VN over S30V. Good to know there isn't that much of a difference. But I still stand by my belief that S45 looks better. Maybe because it's brushed out so nicely on the PM2! Not a fan of the dull finish on the stock Manix. Maybe that's why I've come to look down my nose at S30V, and perhaps that's wrong of me. The important upgrade to the M2 is the compression lock. The backlock is what has stopped me from buying it previously.

[capt.carl]

I understand some people being disappointed that the Mil2 will initially be produced with a S30V blade, as it’s “old news” in today’s market.

However, when it comes to the steel’s performance; S30V holds up as a great general purpose knife steel. S45VN has a slightly different composition, (most notably the inclusion of Niobium), but it’s not necessarily “better”.

Also, I’ve only been messing around with S30V, S45VN, CruWear, S90V, M4 etc for less than a year, so I’m far from “bored” with S30V, at this point.

Also also, it seems like new models from Golden always start their production lives with S30V steel.

As an example; Cutlery Shoppe initially offered runs of satin and DLC S30V Wharncliffe PM2’s, with black G-10 scales. Only in subsequent runs were the Wharnie PM2’s made with XHP and blaze orange G-10. I tend to suspect that CSI wanted their signature XHP and blaze orange scales from the start, but were required to take on the initial runs in S30V because the Wharncliffe was a new blade shape for the PM2.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That's fair. And a good point. All the youtube videos I watch, people always heap higher praise on S45VN over S30V. Good to know there isn't that much of a difference. But I still stand by my belief that S45 looks better. Maybe because it's brushed out so nicely on the PM2! Not a fan of the dull finish on the stock Manix. Maybe that's why I've come to look down my nose at S30V, and perhaps that's wrong of me. The important upgrade to the M2 is the compression lock. The backlock is what has stopped me from buying it previously.

Huh? The stock g10 manix has a kind of highly buffed kinda stonewashed thing going on its really nice

[SpyderForLyfe]

Huh? The stock g10 manix has a kind of highly buffed kinda stonewashed thing going on its really nice

I much prefer the brushed finish on the stock PM2... The S110V Manix has it too. I just prefer that over stonewashed finishes. Always have.

[prndltech]

I understand some people being disappointed that the Mil2 will initially be produced with a S30V blade, as it’s “old news” in today’s market.

However, when it comes to the steel’s performance; S30V holds up as a great general purpose knife steel. S45VN has a slightly different composition, (most notably the inclusion of Niobium), but it’s not necessarily “better”.

Also, I’ve only been messing around with S30V, S45VN, CruWear, S90V, M4 etc for less than a year, so I’m far from “bored” with S30V, at this point.

Also also, it seems like new models from Golden always start their production lives with S30V steel.

As an example; Cutlery Shoppe initially offered runs of satin and DLC S30V Wharncliffe PM2’s, with black G-10 scales. Only in subsequent runs were the Wharnie PM2’s made with XHP and blaze orange G-10. I tend to suspect that CSI wanted their signature XHP and blaze orange scales from the start, but were required to take on the initial runs in S30V because the Wharncliffe was a new blade shape for the PM2.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That's fair. And a good point. All the youtube videos I watch, people always heap higher praise on S45VN over S30V. Good to know there isn't that much of a difference. But I still stand by my belief that S45 looks better. Maybe because it's brushed out so nicely on the PM2! Not a fan of the dull finish on the stock Manix. Maybe that's why I've come to look down my nose at S30V, and perhaps that's wrong of me. The important upgrade to the M2 is the compression lock. The backlock is what has stopped me from buying it previously.

I’d say that’s the problem, don’t turn your nose down at s30v without sharpening and using it!

[sup3rnaut]

That's fair. And a good point. All the youtube videos I watch, people always heap higher praise on S45VN over S30V. Good to know there isn't that much of a difference. But I still stand by my belief that S45 looks better. Maybe because it's brushed out so nicely on the PM2! Not a fan of the dull finish on the stock Manix. Maybe that's why I've come to look down my nose at S30V, and perhaps that's wrong of me. The important upgrade to the M2 is the compression lock. The backlock is what has stopped me from buying it previously.

Golden S30V can look better. My SE S30V Shaman has a very attractive blade finish, (and fantastic serrations, love it). I really wish they stonewashed more of their blades. My other S30V model from Golden is DLC coated, (Wharncliffe PM2).

My other two S30V Spydercos are from Taichung, (Ikuchi), and Seki, (Lil Temperance3). They have satin finishes that look good to me. Ymmv.

Anyway, I highly recommend watching this, (if you haven’t already):

[TkoK83Spy]

I understand some people being disappointed that the Mil2 will initially be produced with a S30V blade, as it’s “old news” in today’s market.

However, when it comes to the steel’s performance; S30V holds up as a great general purpose knife steel. S45VN has a slightly different composition, (most notably the inclusion of Niobium), but it’s not necessarily “better”.

Also, I’ve only been messing around with S30V, S45VN, CruWear, S90V, M4 etc for less than a year, so I’m far from “bored” with S30V, at this point.

Also also, it seems like new models from Golden always start their production lives with S30V steel.

As an example; Cutlery Shoppe initially offered runs of satin and DLC S30V Wharncliffe PM2’s, with black G-10 scales. Only in subsequent runs were the Wharnie PM2’s made with XHP and blaze orange G-10. I tend to suspect that CSI wanted their signature XHP and blaze orange scales from the start, but were required to take on the initial runs in S30V because the Wharncliffe was a new blade shape for the PM2.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That's fair. And a good point. All the youtube videos I watch, people always heap higher praise on S45VN over S30V. Good to know there isn't that much of a difference. But I still stand by my belief that S45 looks better. Maybe because it's brushed out so nicely on the PM2! Not a fan of the dull finish on the stock Manix. Maybe that's why I've come to look down my nose at S30V, and perhaps that's wrong of me. The important upgrade to the M2 is the compression lock. The backlock is what has stopped me from buying it previously.

I’d say that’s the problem, don’t turn your nose down at s30v without sharpening and using it!

Agreed, also...the Military has a liner or RIL lock. No backlock. Stay away from YouTube, it will likely dumb you down or at least make you sound dumb if you start talking like those people.

[Hopsbreath]

I understand some people being disappointed that the Mil2 will initially be produced with a S30V blade, as it’s “old news” in today’s market.

However, when it comes to the steel’s performance; S30V holds up as a great general purpose knife steel. S45VN has a slightly different composition, (most notably the inclusion of Niobium), but it’s not necessarily “better”.

Also, I’ve only been messing around with S30V, S45VN, CruWear, S90V, M4 etc for less than a year, so I’m far from “bored” with S30V, at this point.

Also also, it seems like new models from Golden always start their production lives with S30V steel.

As an example; Cutlery Shoppe initially offered runs of satin and DLC S30V Wharncliffe PM2’s, with black G-10 scales. Only in subsequent runs were the Wharnie PM2’s made with XHP and blaze orange G-10. I tend to suspect that CSI wanted their signature XHP and blaze orange scales from the start, but were required to take on the initial runs in S30V because the Wharncliffe was a new blade shape for the PM2.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That's fair. And a good point. All the youtube videos I watch, people always heap higher praise on S45VN over S30V. Good to know there isn't that much of a difference. But I still stand by my belief that S45 looks better. Maybe because it's brushed out so nicely on the PM2! Not a fan of the dull finish on the stock Manix. Maybe that's why I've come to look down my nose at S30V, and perhaps that's wrong of me. The important upgrade to the M2 is the compression lock. The backlock is what has stopped me from buying it previously.

You referred to S30V as an old steel and S45VN being an upgrade, now you refer to the compression lock the same way. I prefer to view different locks and steels as just that — different. There are pros and cons to the choices we have to pick from and to pick one as superior to the rest is a fallacy based on a mentality that newer is better.

Also, the classic Military comes equipped with a liner-lock, not a backlock. Depending on use, sometimes I prefer the backlock or liner-lock to a compression lock. The current Military setup is great and I highly recommend getting your hands on one to check it out in person before completely dismissing it.

[phaust]

Hoping for S30v myself. I certainly notice the better edge retention over s45vn and s35vn, especially the latter.

[SpyderForLyfe]

You referred to S30V as an old steel and S45VN being an upgrade, now you refer to the compression lock the same way. I prefer to view different locks and steels as just that — different. There are pros and cons to the choices we have to pick from and to pick one as superior to the rest is a fallacy based on a mentality that newer is better.

Also, the classic Military comes equipped with a liner-lock, not a backlock. Depending on use, sometimes I prefer the backlock or liner-lock to a compression lock. The current Military setup is great and I highly recommend getting your hands on one to check it out in person before completely dismissing it.

You are correct, I meant liner lock. (I had back lock on my mind after another conversation in the Ayoob thread).

Yes, I consider the compression lock an upgrade over liner locks. I have personally had liner locks fail in my hands (granted, not Spyderco) so I do not trust them now.

You are free to not see it as an upgrade, rather just another option. I, however, will continue to see it as an upgrade.

[Hopsbreath]

You referred to S30V as an old steel and S45VN being an upgrade, now you refer to the compression lock the same way. I prefer to view different locks and steels as just that — different. There are pros and cons to the choices we have to pick from and to pick one as superior to the rest is a fallacy based on a mentality that newer is better.

Also, the classic Military comes equipped with a liner-lock, not a backlock. Depending on use, sometimes I prefer the backlock or liner-lock to a compression lock. The current Military setup is great and I highly recommend getting your hands on one to check it out in person before completely dismissing it.

You are correct, I meant liner lock. (I had back lock on my mind after another conversation in the Ayoob thread).

Yes, I consider the compression lock an upgrade over liner locks. I have personally had liner locks fail in my hands (granted, not Spyderco) so I do not trust them now.

You are free to not see it as an upgrade, rather just another option. I, however, will continue to see it as an upgrade.

I’ve personally had liner locks fail as well, but not a Spyderco. Indeed Gayle Bradley modified a liner lock to further reduce the chance of failure in his “hard use” folder rather than choose a compression lock. For extended cutting, that cutout for the compression lock on the back of the knife can get a little uncomfortable and the lock itself can snag the webbing of the hand. The main advantage to the compression lock from my point of view, is the ability to disengage the lock without the fingers in the path of the blade. Same goes for the Axis/ball bearing lock but the downside there is a coiled spring that can potentially fail.

If not previously on the market, the back lock with less failure than a liner lock and more comfortable than a compression lock would set the knife word ablaze. Indeed, ColdSteel built an entire brand around a back lock. Much like the telephone, had it been a mode of communication brought about after text message, it would have been revolutionary, but there still would be pros and cons to both.

[Bill1170]

You referred to S30V as an old steel and S45VN being an upgrade, now you refer to the compression lock the same way. I prefer to view different locks and steels as just that — different. There are pros and cons to the choices we have to pick from and to pick one as superior to the rest is a fallacy based on a mentality that newer is better.

Also, the classic Military comes equipped with a liner-lock, not a backlock. Depending on use, sometimes I prefer the backlock or liner-lock to a compression lock. The current Military setup is great and I highly recommend getting your hands on one to check it out in person before completely dismissing it.

You are correct, I meant liner lock. (I had back lock on my mind after another conversation in the Ayoob thread).

Yes, I consider the compression lock an upgrade over liner locks. I have personally had liner locks fail in my hands (granted, not Spyderco) so I do not trust them now.

You are free to not see it as an upgrade, rather just another option. I, however, will continue to see it as an upgrade.

I’ve personally had liner locks fail as well, but not a Spyderco. Indeed Gayle Bradley modified a liner lock to further reduce the chance of failure in his “hard use” folder rather than choose a compression lock. For extended cutting, that cutout for the compression lock on the back of the knife can get a little uncomfortable and the lock itself can snag the webbing of the hand. The main advantage to the compression lock from my point of view, is the ability to disengage the lock without the fingers in the path of the blade. Same goes for the Axis/ball bearing lock but the downside there is a coiled spring that can potentially fail.

If not previously on the market, the back lock with less failure than a liner lock and more comfortable than a compression lock would set the knife word ablaze. Indeed, ColdSteel built an entire brand around a back lock. Much like the telephone, had it been a mode of communication brought about after text message, it would have been revolutionary, but there still would be pros and cons to both.

This is very true.

The telephone WAS revolutionary; it supplanted the telegraph in its time and gave the ability to convey tone, pacing, and emphasis via natural speech. It was a low-latency communication method you could use from the comfort of your home, no telegraph office needed!

I often say that, if wood didn’t exist as a natural material, its invention would revolutionize society. We take certain things for granted because they are ubiquitous and it’s easy to lose sight of just how wonderful they are!

[vandelay]

You referred to S30V as an old steel and S45VN being an upgrade, now you refer to the compression lock the same way. I prefer to view different locks and steels as just that — different. There are pros and cons to the choices we have to pick from and to pick one as superior to the rest is a fallacy based on a mentality that newer is better.

Also, the classic Military comes equipped with a liner-lock, not a backlock. Depending on use, sometimes I prefer the backlock or liner-lock to a compression lock. The current Military setup is great and I highly recommend getting your hands on one to check it out in person before completely dismissing it.

You are correct, I meant liner lock. (I had back lock on my mind after another conversation in the Ayoob thread).

Yes, I consider the compression lock an upgrade over liner locks. I have personally had liner locks fail in my hands (granted, not Spyderco) so I do not trust them now.

You are free to not see it as an upgrade, rather just another option. I, however, will continue to see it as an upgrade.

I’ve personally had liner locks fail as well, but not a Spyderco. Indeed Gayle Bradley modified a liner lock to further reduce the chance of failure in his “hard use” folder rather than choose a compression lock. For extended cutting, that cutout for the compression lock on the back of the knife can get a little uncomfortable and the lock itself can snag the webbing of the hand. The main advantage to the compression lock from my point of view, is the ability to disengage the lock without the fingers in the path of the blade. Same goes for the Axis/ball bearing lock but the downside there is a coiled spring that can potentially fail.

Looking at the compression lock, I feel like it would be possible to just move the lock bar to the front side of the knife so that it would basically just be a stronger liner lock. If that change was made, the compression lock would probably just be a better liner lock. I doubt it would ever happen, but it would be interesting to see a military 1.5 with a front comp lock.

It would be nice to see more development of alternatives to the comp lock cutout, like on the smock. The lock cutout seems like the biggest weakness of the design.

[Mushroom]

Looking at the compression lock, I feel like it would be possible to just move the lock bar to the front side of the knife so that it would basically just be a stronger liner lock. If that change was made, the compression lock would probably just be a better liner lock. I doubt it would ever happen, but it would be interesting to see a military 1.5 with a front comp lock.

It would be nice to see more development of alternatives to the comp lock cutout, like on the smock. The lock cutout seems like the biggest weakness of the design.

I’m having a difficult time imagining the “front compression lock” you’re describing but the liner lock and compression lock function entirely different from each other.

The compression lock is a lot more than just a liner lock on the top of the knife. Rather than expand on it again myself though, I will direct you to this months Spyderbyte newsletter.

https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... 963d2ec1ef

The whole newsletter is very informative but it specifically does a good job detailing everything about the compression lock for those who are still learning. I would highly recommend that everyone read it though, it provides a lot of information that even some Spyderco enthusiasts might not know.

[vandelay]

Looking at the compression lock, I feel like it would be possible to just move the lock bar to the front side of the knife so that it would basically just be a stronger liner lock. If that change was made, the compression lock would probably just be a better liner lock. I doubt it would ever happen, but it would be interesting to see a military 1.5 with a front comp lock.

It would be nice to see more development of alternatives to the comp lock cutout, like on the smock. The lock cutout seems like the biggest weakness of the design.

I’m having a difficult time imagining the “front compression lock” you’re describing but the liner lock and compression lock function entirely different from each other.

The compression lock is a lot more than just a liner lock on the top of the knife. Rather than expand on it again myself though, I will direct you to this months Spyderbyte newsletter.

https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... 963d2ec1ef

The whole newsletter is very informative but it specifically does a good job detailing everything about the compression lock for those who are still learning. I would highly recommend that everyone read it though, it provides a lot of information that even some Spyderco enthusiasts might not know.

If you just extended the lock bar where I've colored it red, you could disengage it from the front. For something more practical, you'd probably want to change where the lock bar attached to the handle and move the lock bar cutout forward if possible, but I don't see why this wouldn't work.