Poll: C-60 Ayoob Sprint Run SE or PE %s

[NeverEnough]

... Got a plain edge in 2011 which I still have. Voted for full teeth on this one.

[JD Spydo]

... Got a plain edge in 2011 which I still have. Voted for full teeth on this one.

I hear this over and over>> once a guy gets a taste of just how great and versatile of a folder the C-60 Ayoob is they never forget it. This is one of Spyderco's models that just kept growing on me after all these years.

You will absolutely flip when you try one of the C-60 Ayoob models with a full Spyderedge. It's one of the very few Spyderco models that I like just as much in SE as I do in PE.

Get one of the SE versions when they hit the market>> you won't regret it. I truly think that once this newest C-60 Ayoob hits the market it's finally going to get the recognition that this knife has deserved for quite some time. They may be forced to do more the one Sprint run of this C-60.

[NeverEnough]

... Got a plain edge in 2011 which I still have. Voted for full teeth on this one.

I hear this over and over>> once a guy gets a taste of just how great and versatile of a folder the C-60 Ayoob is they never forget it. This is one of Spyderco's models that just kept growing on me after all these years.

You will absolutely flip when you try one of the C-60 Ayoob models with a full Spyderedge. It's one of the very few Spyderco models that I like just as much in SE as I do in PE.

Get one of the SE versions when they hit the market>> you won't regret it. I truly think that once this newest C-60 Ayoob hits the market it's finally going to get the recognition that this knife has deserved for quite some time. They may be forced to do more the one Sprint run of this C-60.

JD...i hear you.
Just hope I can get my hands on one.
I expect it to be a phenomenal performer...

[JD Spydo]

Almost two weeks after I started this thread the voting results are surprising to me. Because I know for a fact that these results would not have happened even just a year ago.

As of today 10-24-20 you have SE 43 and PE 21. Again that would not have happened even as recent as a year ago. Serrated Spyderco folders are truly gaining in popularity. Now I realize that these particular results are for the C-60 Ayoob model specifically. But still again you would not have had those results even a year ago.

Spyderco needs to learn that more and more people are wanting certain models to be available in SE & PE both.

[justjohn]

I went with SE because SE puts the hurts to whatever it touches! :D

[JD Spydo]

I went with SE because SE puts the hurts to whatever it touches! :D

Thank you for your vote. I take it by your response that you prefer serrated blades over plain edged blades in your everyday uses? I really find it interesting with this particular model ( C-60 Ayoob) that for the first time in years most of the people on the POLL like this model in SE instead of PE?

Or are you referring to "Self Defense" uses?

[justjohn]

Hello JD. I do prefer SE blades over PE so much so that I carry SE Spyderco Knives as backup for my side arm. The SE knives can accomplish the majority of my non-self defense related cutting needs, and after seeing first hand what a SE can do to the human body it is a no-brainer for me. I am not a sadist, I just figure if I have to use a knife for self defense I want to leave a lasting impression. :eek:

[JD Spydo]

Hello JD. I do prefer SE blades over PE so much so that I carry SE Spyderco Knives as backup for my side arm. The SE knives can accomplish the majority of my non-self defense related cutting needs, and after seeing first hand what a SE can do to the human body it is a no-brainer for me. I am not a sadist, I just figure if I have to use a knife for self defense I want to leave a lasting impression. :eek:

Hey if it works>> then more power to you. Again I wish I could find that video of a meat cutting test done by one of our long time forum members i.e. Doc Snubnose. Doc has been gone for a while but I have a feeling he'll come back at some point in time. He did this meat cutting test with his original circa 2002, Full SE, first run C-60 Ayoob model. And it was impressive to watch to say the very least.

Now I know that our good Brother Michael Janich who is our "In House" expert on self defense applications and he has some issues with serrated blades all together for self defense type blades.. But there are two folders I would love to see him do more tests with>> and those two are the C-60 Ayoob and the original full SE, JD Smith model. Those two in SE are like lasers in most cutting jobs and I'm sure they both would be **** for anyone being cut by either one of them.

The blade belly of the C-60 Ayoob is designed to be in a constant angle of attack because of it's unique blade design. It's constantly cutting no matter how you apply the blade. I'm so extremely thankful that Sal & Co. have elected to bring back the C-60 Ayoob in SE & PE. And I hope this upcoming Sprint Run of the C-60 sells so fast that Spyderco does so well with the Sprint Run that they will consider putting them back into the main line up again. But we'll see>> so let's just keep our fingers crossed

[Michael Janich]

Hey, JD and All:

For those who haven't heard my thoughts on serrations for self-defense, I thought I'd explain--and clarify why some blade patterns successfully mitigate my objection.

In Martial Blade Concepts, our ultimate stopping tactic is to cut the quadriceps muscle within the first few inches above the knee. This disconnects the quadriceps from the patellar tendon, which attaches to the front of the shin, destroying the leg's ability to extend the knee joint and support weight. This "mobility kill" allows you to create distance and safety and has been a proven tactic for centuries.

In modern times, one of the environmental factors that can make this tactic less effective is when an attacker wears loose, baggy pants. With most serrated blades, trying to cut through loose material to affect the underlying limb tends to "spin" the material. The serrations grab the cloth and move it, dissipating the force of the cut.

With a conventional PlainEdge blade, this is much less of a problem, as they tend to cut cleaner--even through loose clothing. To make sure, in MBC we also use a tactic called a Comma Cut, which involves thrusting perpendicularly through the clothing to penetrate it (and the tissue), and then cutting the quadriceps.

Self-defense-oriented knives like the Ayoob, the Civilian, and the Matriarch, as well as hawkbills like the Harpy and Tasman, are less prone to the snag-and-spin issue because their blade profiles lower the point of the blade to increase cutting pressure toward the tip. As such, in their serrated format, they still cut very effectively--even through baggy clothing. The trade-off is that they are much more difficult to thrust with.

When I worked with Mas Ayoob back in the Masters of Defense days (he and I were both members of the original design team), I seem to recall him mentioning that his Spyderco design was conceived mostly to provide a grip angle that was more comfortable to shooters. When gripped in a saber grip, it would align the centerline of the blade with the forearm and allow thrusting without having to "cam" the wrist forward. In simple terms, it was trying to be as much of a push dagger as possible without being a push dagger. The "dropped" handle design--which is also a signature feature of many Ed Schempp designs--also added power to the cut.

In practice, his design--and the KABAR TDI Knife, which came years later with the same logic--facilitates punch-style thrusts, but makes gross-motor-skill thrusts more difficult. Gross-motor-skill thrusts tend to be more of a "pendulum" style, rather than a linear punch, and don't involve bracing with the thumb as in a saber grip or the default grip the Ayoob tends to promote.

The bottom line is that self-defense knife design is very closely related to the tactics of the knife's application. And, like most things in life, there are always trade-offs. A specialized design that does one thing exceptionally well typically does so by compromising somewhere else.

Stay safe,

Mike

[JD Spydo]

Mr. Janich all of your points you've made in the past concerning extremely sharp PE Wharncliffe blades are well taken and I can't disagree with any of them. You've obviously studied the subject far deeper than most of us here on the Forum have.

The only reason I even so much as bring up the serrated versions of the C-60 Ayoob and JD Smith models in SE is that I'm just making a simple point that those two seem to be much better than most SE blades that I've ever owned and used.

My main SD weapon if I was ever actually forced to use it ( and I hope to GOD not) is my M390 Military model and it has a plain edge. And I keep it as sharp as a straight razor :cool: . I have more overall confidence in PE blades just for the record than I do with most SE blades.

No I'm just simply exploring which blade design which would give optimal performance in SE. And I've personally found that the C-60 Ayoob and JD Smith models in SE do better than any others I've used>> so far up till now anyway And my point is that some of these serrated blades do have their place in the big picture of things. And I love the fact that Spyderco has taken the serrated edge of a much higher level than any other cutlery company has ever done IMO. We always value your great input Mr. Janich :)

[Evil D]

Hey, JD and All:

For those who haven't heard my thoughts on serrations for self-defense....

Stay safe,

Mike

I'm sure you're a busy guy but if you ever want to try out these more rounded serrations on the Pork Man tests just give me an address and I'll mail you my Caribbean.

[JD Spydo]

Hey, JD and All:

For those who haven't heard my thoughts on serrations for self-defense....

Stay safe,

Mike

I'm sure you're a busy guy but if you ever want to try out these more rounded serrations on the Pork Man tests just give me an address and I'll mail you my Caribbean.

I'll second that motion!! I would also be willing to mail him my old AUS-8, full SE Catcherman model to test out that serration pattern as well.

I know I sound like an old vinyl LP record album with a bad skip in it but I do firmly believe that the type of pattern plays a huge role in it's performance. When I got my first AUS-8, Full SE Catcherman it was a completely different animal all together.

[Evil D]

Hey, JD and All:

For those who haven't heard my thoughts on serrations for self-defense....

Stay safe,

Mike

I'm sure you're a busy guy but if you ever want to try out these more rounded serrations on the Pork Man tests just give me an address and I'll mail you my Caribbean.

I'll second that motion!! I would also be willing to mail him my old AUS-8, full SE Catcherman model to test out that serration pattern as well.

I know I sound like an old vinyl LP record album with a bad skip in it but I do firmly believe that the type of pattern plays a huge role in it's performance. When I got my first AUS-8, Full SE Catcherman it was a completely different animal all together.

I certainly don't know anywhere near what Mike knows about self defense and cutting through clothes, so I can only speculate but I feel pretty confident based on what I've seen this Caribbean do that it will not snag. I would make my own Pork Man thingy but for consistency I would rather he did it, that way he can perform the cuts and such the same as he would any other knife vs however I might do it.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, JD and Evil D:

Does the serration pattern on the old Catcherman look like this one?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... 1695252021

Evil D, do you have a photo of the modded serration pattern you're referring to?

I'm just trying to understand the details of the differences. I've done Pork Man tests with many different serration patterns, from Cold Steel's tiny teeth to the Veff pattern on CRKT knives. It's interesting to dig into the logic behind them all...

Stay safe,

Mike

[Evil D]

Hey, JD and Evil D:

Does the serration pattern on the old Catcherman look like this one?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... 1695252021

Evil D, do you have a photo of the modded serration pattern you're referring to?

I'm just trying to understand the details of the differences. I've done Pork Man tests with many different serration patterns, from Cold Steel's tiny teeth to the Veff pattern on CRKT knives. It's interesting to dig into the logic behind them all...

Stay safe,

Mike

They're much less sharp on the points and overall just thinner and slice better. I'm curious because they're probably still more "grabby" than plain edge simply because they still have teeth and it still cuts far more aggressively than plain edge. In casual use there's a big difference between grabby and snagging but in self defense maybe they're the same when it comes to clothing.

[JD Spydo]

I would be the last one on the planet to take issue or debate Mr. Janich. With his expertise he's probably forgotten more than I've ever learned about self defense and overall knife blade performance. But I will stick to my guns on one issue. I do believe if they work on the serration pattern and make it similar to what Evil D just showed us I think they would be pleasantly surprised at the performance difference.

The performance difference in my old Full SE, AUS-8 Catcherman versus one of the typical Japan made SE Spyderco models is truly like a night & day difference IMO. But hey I'm here to learn. And the potential of a new serrated C-60 Ayoob would be a great folder to learn it on.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, Evil D:

Thank you for the great photos. That helps a lot.

JD, I'm here to learn, too. I also want to keep learning, so even though I arrived at what I believe to be an educated opinion based on empirical testing, that opinion is subject to change with enough compelling data.

I think it's also worth noting that my early testing was based on the Spyderco serrations available at the time, which were primarily saber-ground and hollow-ground blades. The FFG with serrations came later. Most of my experience with FFG SpyderEdges has been with the Tenacious.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Cl1ff]

I agree with the others regarding more rounded serrations! My Spyderco knife has seen a lot of use/sharpening and seems to just cut better and better with time.
The knife still bites in (It will cleanly cut a water bottle even at a sharpness which would cause my plain edge knives to have a hard time as an example), but glides much more smoothly. Making things noticeably easier to cut without pulling the medium along too.
I plan on writing, or attempting to write, a post that explains my thoughts about serrations. I’ll mostly approach it from a biomechanic point of view which is something new that I haven’t seen discussed in the forum.
I’m not sure when, but I think it will be interesting at least.

[VWTattoo]

Hey if it works>> then more power to you. Again I wish I could find that video of a meat cutting test done by one of our long time forum members i.e. Doc Snubnose. Doc has been gone for a while but I have a feeling he'll come back at some point in time. He did this meat cutting test with his original circa 2002, Full SE, first run C-60 Ayoob model. And it was impressive to watch to say the very least.

Hey JD, VWTattoo here. I was the one who worked with Doc Snubnose to get all of his cut results compiled and into a database. I STILL HAVE this database, and in it it describes:
1. What test he performed i.e. what kind of cut he used on the meat;
2. What the meat was (99% was a Round Roast wrapped 4x in Saran Wrap, and then a layer of denim.)
3. Which knife, obviously, including edge configuration;
4. Length and depth of the cut.

The details on the C60 Ayoob SE were as follows:

Test Date : 05/31/2005.

Cut 1: Forward Thrust, Downward Pull. - Cut Length : 1.5", Cut Depth : 2.75"

Cut 2: Horizontal Slash. - Cut Length : 8.375" , Cut Depth : 3.0"

Now you know! And knowing IS half the battle! :D

Scott

[JD Spydo]

Hey if it works>> then more power to you. Again I wish I could find that video of a meat cutting test done by one of our long time forum members i.e. Doc Snubnose. Doc has been gone for a while but I have a feeling he'll come back at some point in time. He did this meat cutting test with his original circa 2002, Full SE, first run C-60 Ayoob model. And it was impressive to watch to say the very least.

Hey JD, VWTattoo here. I was the one who worked with Doc Snubnose to get all of his cut results compiled and into a database. I STILL HAVE this database, and in it it describes:
1. What test he performed i.e. what kind of cut he used on the meat;
2. What the meat was (99% was a Round Roast wrapped 4x in Saran Wrap, and then a layer of denim.)
3. Which knife, obviously, including edge configuration;
4. Length and depth of the cut.

The details on the C60 Ayoob SE were as follows:

Test Date : 05/31/2005.

Cut 1: Forward Thrust, Downward Pull. - Cut Length : 1.5", Cut Depth : 2.75"

Cut 2: Horizontal Slash. - Cut Length : 8.375" , Cut Depth : 3.0"

Now you know! And knowing IS half the battle! :D

Scott

Heck yes!! I remember you VWTattoo :) I remember you from my old 2005 era "Now's The Time: For A New Hawkbill" thread. I was just looking over the first few pages of that thread not too long ago and you were one of the first guys on it :D . Well I sure hope Doc Snubnose is A-OK and I hope he comes back at some point. I always enjoyed from his input and learned a lot from him. Those are most impressive results. and I sure hope you will also be getting one of these new Sprint Run C-60 Ayoob models coming soon :)