Golden Age of Supersteels Over???

[rkolling]

Now that CPM is no more, I am wondering if the “golden age” of Spyderco super steel knives is over, or at least on hold pending the inevitable evolution of technology which can seemingly move like a glacier at times? Curious as to all of your thoughts.

Just to refresh, CPM was responsible for the SxxV stainless series of which S90V was my favorite for its balance of hardness, toughness and corrosion resistance. In the non-stainless camp CPM provided such greats as 15 (especially with the BBB heat treating protocol) and REX 121.

I truly hope the near term outlook is not just MagnaCut, K390, SPY27 and M390/398! Will Z-MAX get another look as a possible 15V replacement, possibly with an enhanced heat treating protocol? What are your thoughts?

[sal]

H Krolling,

Welcome to our forum.

The knife industry has been going through sort of a "Renaissance" for a while now. If the interest and demand for "new and innovative" is there, those serving the market will create it.

sal
____________________________________________________________________________________-

"Continual improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

[p_atrick]

While it is probably hard to overstate the importance of Crucible for the knife industry (how cool is the story about them powdering CruWear just for fun), the cutlery steel industry will go on. There are certain aspects that will certain go away. For example, Crucible would take all kinds of steels never intended for cutlery and decided "why not?" These types of scenarios seemed to happen with regularity because there is a giant backlog of steels that hadn't been used in knives. So yes, we can regret the end of this.

However, we are seeing steels be made in a much more intentional manner. Dr. Thomas comes to mind (MagnaCut, MagnaMax, ApexUltra, ProCut). But he is not alone. Nitro-X7 is a recent steel (not sure when it was originally invented), and there are some great results coming from Roman at Kase Knives.

What does the future hold for knife steel? No idea. Maybe more makers dial in heat treatment protocols for those tried and true steels that are still around. Maybe these heat treatment protocols will be adopted by the big name manufacturers. The closing of Crucible is an end of an era, but there is room for optimism.

[Rezimus]

I think the more long term future of the steel industry (in relation to knives) is with a completely new medium. In the meantime I am not sure how you figure it "moves like a glacier" as the last 30 years have brought us an increasing fast rate of improvement in knife steel. We went from developing steels like s30v to now expecting a stainless K390 and having exceedingly well rounded steels like Cruwear/Magnacut/3v being common place in even new knife owners pockets...That is a HUGE jump in performance. That isnt even mentioning the insane leap forward the knife community as a whole has taken regarding understanding heat treatments, and getting consumer knives out with higher hardness and better micro-structures.

I am not sure what the problem is with only a few steels being used. Ideally a steel that has super high toughness/corrosion resistance/wear resistance/capable of high hardness would simply be used for everything. Honestly, I think we are extremely lucky to live in such a time where our little niche industry is making such leaps and bounds.

The industry contains some really incredible people as well. People that we should be thankful are using their talents for the passion we all have and not some other industry that pays far more. And believe me, plenty do.

[abbazaba]

With Larrin and friend's work, I feel like it's just begun!

[Evil D]

H Krolling,

Welcome to our forum.

The knife industry has been going through sort of a "Renaissance" for a while now. If the interest and demand for "new and innovative" is there, those serving the market will create it.

sal
____________________________________________________________________________________-

"Continual improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

I guess the demand starts with manufacturers like Spyderco? Because once the steel is in a knife then it seems like more of a "if you build it, they will come" situation where we consumers will buy it if it's made available. I guess at least for Spyderco much of that may come from requests (since y'all listen to customers more than most) but I hope Spyderco are leading the charge with the rest of the steel manufacturers to keep making as many of our favorites as possible.

[cjk]

The premise of this thread seems a bit odd given that a new fandangled steel called MagnaMax is on the horizon.
Despite Crucible's demise, there are still exciting things happening in the knife industry.
Niagara Specialty Metals appears to be one of the biggest, yet largely unsung stars of the cutlery industry (at least among knife buyers). I look forward to seeing "NSM 90" or "NSM Wear" lasered on knives. Maybe "NSM- MagnaMax" too?

[rkolling]

First of all, thanks to everyone for their posts. They have had a lot of good info and thoughts as well as helping me to Crispin up my thinking.

My thoughts expressed in the opening post are very much driven by my particular use case. I am using my knives to slice cardboard and paper and plastic packing tape on the cardboard boxes. Fortunately the boxes do NOT have staples so I do not have to worry about a blade damaging collision with a staple. I do not do any prying, scraping or chopping so there is not much in the way of impact or torque stresses on the blades.

Thus, I have gravitated towards the high hardness, supersteel, “corner solutions” such as 15V and especially Maxamet and REX 121 with very high hardness but not much toughness, particularly in the case of the latter two.

CPM was/is synonymous with many of the high hardness supersteels. I read where no one else possesses the ability to make 15V.

I do see a lot of innovation currently occurring, but much of it seems to be in the middle of the KnifeSteelNerds toughness vs. hardness chart. Rather than “corner solutions” we are seeing more balanced hardness/toughness offerings that also include the “third axis” of stain resistance.

Perhaps in considerable (glacial) time the strong inverse correlation between toughness and hardness will be ameliorated or even flipped on its head and we will see toughness and hardness more closely allied. Who wouldn’t love REX 121 hardness coupled with CruWear toughness and MagnaCut stainlessness!

Who knows where this will lead? Perhaps it will be as Rezimus speculated in his post - a new medium. For example, Sandrin Knives may represent an early step into non-ferrous territory with its tungsten carbide knife.

[zhyla]

I guess the demand starts with manufacturers like Spyderco?

I’ve always been under the impression that knives don’t really drive the industry. There are exceptions but I think it’s usually industrial needs that lead to new steels. Tool steels, ball bearing steels, etc.

If knives were to drive steel creation it would be cheaper brands that do it. Eg the Civivi type companies, not high priced American brands.

[vivi]

nah. we just got everything in magnacut, and as far as I'm concerned it's the best steel to date.

100% corrosion proof in my testing so far. dead simple to sharpen. edge holding similar to s30v.

we have some pretty awesome alloys these days.

[Naperville]

CPM steels will be remembered for a long time. I hope that we are just getting started.

Larrin's texts reveal that there is a steady stream of new steels to be had over history.

[Red Leader]

The Golden Age of Supersteels is just beginning. We are only in the infancy stage.

I mean, heck, I'm typing this out right now listening to the Magnamax theme song. The golden age is now.

[Danke]

Multiple reports are coming in! The sky is falling!

[apollo]

nah. we just got everything in magnacut, and as far as I'm concerned it's the best steel to date.

100% corrosion proof in my testing so far. dead simple to sharpen. edge holding similar to s30v.

we have some pretty awesome alloys these days.

Vivi that sounds depressing to me to be honest. All that hype for a steel that can not really outperform s30v?
I mean S30V is more then good enough in it self in corrosion resistance and its easy to sharpen aswel.
Now i need to think its just a more expensive variant to S30V with a fancy name and nothing to offer me but a better looking set of stock g10 scales really.

[vivi]

nah. we just got everything in magnacut, and as far as I'm concerned it's the best steel to date.

100% corrosion proof in my testing so far. dead simple to sharpen. edge holding similar to s30v.

we have some pretty awesome alloys these days.

Vivi that sounds depressing to me to be honest. All that hype for a steel that can not really outperform s30v?
I mean S30V is more then good enough in it self in corrosion resistance and its easy to sharpen aswel.
Now i need to think its just a more expensive variant to S30V with a fancy name and nothing to offer me but a better looking set of stock g10 scales really.

if all you see is edge retention you're missing at least 3/4 of the attributes that make steels "super"

[apollo]

nah. we just got everything in magnacut, and as far as I'm concerned it's the best steel to date.

100% corrosion proof in my testing so far. dead simple to sharpen. edge holding similar to s30v.

we have some pretty awesome alloys these days.

Vivi that sounds depressing to me to be honest. All that hype for a steel that can not really outperform s30v?
I mean S30V is more then good enough in it self in corrosion resistance and its easy to sharpen aswel.
Now i need to think its just a more expensive variant to S30V with a fancy name and nothing to offer me but a better looking set of stock g10 scales really.

if all you see is edge retention you're missing at least 3/4 of the attributes that make steels "super"

I do see more then only edge retention but honestly seeing the "crazy Hero status" off magnacut on this forum i did expect more then what you said it is. First off all i do not dive and i do not live by the sea so corrosion resistance is nothing i care about as the only steel i have that rusts is M4 on my bradley all other like 3V , 15V , Cruwear do not develop corrosion in my case. Then easy to sharpen well that is very nice unthil now i only had issues with my 10V being difficult for me so that is great but bot breath taking. So i figured its performance would be in the area off slightly worse then S90V but since it is not i can not be anything then a bit let down.
I mean why do you all love it so much then if it in the end is not as god like as some here seem to make it?

[vivi]

I ignored the magnacut hype and waited until it was used in a model I really liked, the Military 2. All my opinions on the steel are based on using it, not larrins charts or anyones youtube videos.


To me H1 was a bigger deal than any steel that beat s30v in edge retention. so if you want to understand my love for magnacut you have to view steels from that perspective.

H1 had terrible edge retention sharpening it the way I sharpened knives back then - 15 degrees per side with the fine or ultrafine sharpmaker rods.

That eventually led me down a very useful rabbit hole of low grit sharpening experiments, but I still knew that I'd be happier with a rust proof steel I could sharpen however I wanted, that could be ground in any grind, had good edge retention with any edge type, etc.

LC200N seemed to be the answer when spyderco started using it. It's a great steel. Slightly better edge holding than H1 PE, very tough, can be full flat ground, etc.

My main issue with LC200N was simply the lack of models offered in it that worked for me.

H1 was my favorite steel for a time, and while LC200N didn't get offered in models that made the cut for me, I recognized it was an improvement over H1 in many respects so I still loved the steel.

Magnacut is an improvement over LC200N in every category for my uses based on my testing so far.

It has not corroded at all for me so far, despite treating it like any other salt. Spotless.

Edge holding is better than either H1 or LC200N by a noticeable margin, regardless of the edge type. I don't have to use 300 grit edges to be happy with the edge holding - I've tried all sorts of finishes from 8,000 grit japanese stones, to 100-200 diamond plates. Every edge has performed well for me. I'm getting S30V level edge holding instead of VG10ish from LC200N or AUS8 levels from H1 PE, and it sharpens great on any abrasive type. Doesn't burr as much as the other rust proof steels I've tried.

No issues with toughness so far. Even though LC200N gets high toughness marks on paper, for me there was a noticeable difference there between H1 and LC. Now, I'm not claiming magnacut is tougher than either of those, but so far it's held up great to more rugged tasks.


Can be full flat ground and DLC coated, something I couldn't get from H1.

So, does the edge holding blow away 15V, maxamet, S110V etc? No. But I value edge holding about as much as you value corrosion resistance. What can I say, I enjoy sharpening.

My lifestyle and location means a lot of days out in 100+F heat doing very active things.

For me, a rust proof steel with AUS8 edge retention (like H1 PE) equals less maintenance than S30V in the summer time. It takes less time for me to touch up an easy to grind steel than it does to take sandpaper to blades, liners etc. to scrub out the rust.

here's an example. same thing happens with my VG10 Police 3 - viewtopic.php?p=1360151#p1360151


So magnacut took everything I loved about H1 and LC200N and improved upon them, so naturally it became my favorite steel. Though it probably doesn't have the absurd toughness of H1 to be fair, but I rarely need such extreme toughness in a small folder.

For someone that doesn't care about corrosion resistance I could see not being wowed by it.

Just like I couldn't care less about 15V.

I still haven't ever carried my 15V Military 2 because I got the salt version right around the same time. There's no competition there for me. I'm satisfied with the edge holding of magnacut.

So that's why I like it.

I still think the magnacut hype is kind of dumb, and the price is stupid on a lot of models.

$250 multitools. S35VN Recon folders for $90-110, but the magnacut version is $210-250. Leatherman just put out some $300 fixed blades in it. all silly.

If knife steel technology stopped progression after 2025 and we never got better than what we have today, I'd be 100% ok with that.

I'd rather spyderco stop goofing around with carbon tool steels in folders, run every model in a salt version like the millie 2 & manix xl, and leave it at that.

[jasonstone20]

I will take a knife in 420J2 if the heat treatment is optimized; most 420J2 is just quick and dirty batch HT, but I have had some removable razor blade knives where the 420J2 was 55-56HRC, and it worked just fine. Same with 420HC, AUS-6, AUS-8/AUS-8A, 8Cr13MoV, 440A, 13C26/AEB-L, 440B, 440C. I would be happy with a blade in any of those, and that is just the stain-resistant steels. Having metal alloys that are specifically designed for cutlery is awesome, and I really don't know why it hadn't been done earlier, the explanation I got was that the cutlery industry, literally the whole thing, didn't use enough steel to require it's own specialized steel. I just want a knife that will apex cleanly, sharpens easily, and can take any edge grit I put on it without issues. Even though a lot of those steels I named as I would be happy having a knife are "old", the fact is they have the properties that are desirable in a steel used for cutlery. Are they ideal? No. Is there room for improvement? Of course, there almost always is. But progress, not perfection. I think MagnaCut steel is amazing, and, no disrespect to Dr. Larrin's hard work, which is awesome, but why wasn't this done a while ago? I know the Nitrogen technology probably wasn't around, and that makes a big difference, but to have a steel that is designed to be heat-treated for knives, is designed to have the properties desired in a cutlery steel, now that is a watershed moment for the cutlery world if you ask me. Steels like LC200N, BD1N, Nitrobe 77 are interesting steels also. I still haven't gotten a hold of a knife in Magnacut, I think I am going to start saving for one of the new Salt Series knives since they come in Magnacut and the designs I like. I think ever since the barrel clip holder Spyderco's, the designs of the Delica and the Endura have really been perfected, and I would take either of those knives in any of the steels listed above. That said, a Miitary or PM2 or Para 3 or Para 3LW in Magnacut would fit the bill, it would be interesting to see how it sharpens up.

[apollo]

I ignored the magnacut hype and waited until it was used in a model I really liked, the Military 2. All my opinions on the steel are based on using it, not larrins charts or anyones youtube videos.


To me H1 was a bigger deal than any steel that beat s30v in edge retention. so if you want to understand my love for magnacut you have to view steels from that perspective.

H1 had terrible edge retention sharpening it the way I sharpened knives back then - 15 degrees per side with the fine or ultrafine sharpmaker rods.

That eventually led me down a very useful rabbit hole of low grit sharpening experiments, but I still knew that I'd be happier with a rust proof steel I could sharpen however I wanted, that could be ground in any grind, had good edge retention with any edge type, etc.

LC200N seemed to be the answer when spyderco started using it. It's a great steel. Slightly better edge holding than H1 PE, very tough, can be full flat ground, etc.

My main issue with LC200N was simply the lack of models offered in it that worked for me.

H1 was my favorite steel for a time, and while LC200N didn't get offered in models that made the cut for me, I recognized it was an improvement over H1 in many respects so I still loved the steel.

Magnacut is an improvement over LC200N in every category for my uses based on my testing so far.

It has not corroded at all for me so far, despite treating it like any other salt. Spotless.

Edge holding is better than either H1 or LC200N by a noticeable margin, regardless of the edge type. I don't have to use 300 grit edges to be happy with the edge holding - I've tried all sorts of finishes from 8,000 grit japanese stones, to 100-200 diamond plates. Every edge has performed well for me. I'm getting S30V level edge holding instead of VG10ish from LC200N or AUS8 levels from H1 PE, and it sharpens great on any abrasive type. Doesn't burr as much as the other rust proof steels I've tried.

No issues with toughness so far. Even though LC200N gets high toughness marks on paper, for me there was a noticeable difference there between H1 and LC. Now, I'm not claiming magnacut is tougher than either of those, but so far it's held up great to more rugged tasks.


Can be full flat ground and DLC coated, something I couldn't get from H1.

So, does the edge holding blow away 15V, maxamet, S110V etc? No. But I value edge holding about as much as you value corrosion resistance. What can I say, I enjoy sharpening.

My lifestyle and location means a lot of days out in 100+F heat doing very active things.

For me, a rust proof steel with AUS8 edge retention (like H1 PE) equals less maintenance than S30V in the summer time. It takes less time for me to touch up an easy to grind steel than it does to take sandpaper to blades, liners etc. to scrub out the rust.

here's an example. same thing happens with my VG10 Police 3 - viewtopic.php?p=1360151#p1360151


So magnacut took everything I loved about H1 and LC200N and improved upon them, so naturally it became my favorite steel. Though it probably doesn't have the absurd toughness of H1 to be fair, but I rarely need such extreme toughness in a small folder.

For someone that doesn't care about corrosion resistance I could see not being wowed by it.

Just like I couldn't care less about 15V.

I still haven't ever carried my 15V Military 2 because I got the salt version right around the same time. There's no competition there for me. I'm satisfied with the edge holding of magnacut.

So that's why I like it.

I still think the magnacut hype is kind of dumb, and the price is stupid on a lot of models.

$250 multitools. S35VN Recon folders for $90-110, but the magnacut version is $210-250. Leatherman just put out some $300 fixed blades in it. all silly.

If knife steel technology stopped progression after 2025 and we never got better than what we have today, I'd be 100% ok with that.

I'd rather spyderco stop goofing around with carbon tool steels in folders, run every model in a salt version like the millie 2 & manix xl, and leave it at that.

Thx Vivi now i honestly do not care about edge retention that much myself. I own 15V's, Rex 45 etc... but 95% of the time i use S30V or Cruwear or Spy27 and recently thx to my lil temperance i have bin using vg10 again aswel.
So you saved me allot of money as i was now can buy another Spy-27 or S30V manix and customize the handle for much cheaper then doing it to the Magnacuts.

[Brock O Lee]

Crucible was good to us... I'm not complaining!





Ignore the impostors (K390 & Maxamet)