Tuff not so Tuff...

[dbcad]

Yeah, maybe I should send it in so they can have a look to see if anything is wrong. It's not really a type of force I would usually put on a locking knife, but it could definitely happen with a "hard use" folder if the blade was stuck in some wood and wiggled it to get it out (just like the OP did). It sure made me feel more comfortable with something like a compression lock if I was planning to do some rough work with the knife. Strange feeling for me, since I always thought an overbuilt frame-lock was very reliable.

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would detect a problem with a blade lock and not send it in to be evaluated. If there's an explanation please enlighten me :eek:

Head in the sand behavior such as this smacks of pure stupidity!!!

If a model is billed as being hard use and you think you have felt it fail give the manufacturer a chance to evaluate to see if any such weakness exists. Unless of course you're too insecure to let this hot new model leave your hand :eek: AAAARRRRgh!!!!

[Jet B]

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would detect a problem with a blade lock and not send it in to be evaluated. If there's an explanation please enlighten me :eek:

Head in the sand behavior such as this smacks of pure stupidity!!!

If a model is billed as being hard use and you think you have felt it fail give the manufacturer a chance to evaluate to see if any such weakness exists. Unless of course you're too insecure to let this hot new model leave your hand :eek: AAAARRRRgh!!!!

LOL...

Don't get your blood pressure worked up, the lock failed this afternoon and I just sent an email to Spyderco to get the ball rolling. I prefer to communicate with them first to see what they think before sending it in for a look since I'm in Canada and it will probably cost me a bit more for shipping.

I'm not going to be knife deprived in any case, I still have all my other Spydies to cut stuff up with after all.

[dbcad]

LOL...

Don't get your blood pressure worked up, the lock failed this afternoon and I just sent an email to Spyderco to get the ball rolling. I prefer to communicate with them first to see what they think before sending it in for a look since I'm in Canada and it will probably cost me a bit more for shipping.

I'm not going to be knife deprived in any case, I still have all my other Spydies to cut stuff up with after all.

Thank you for sending it in, I'll be looking forward to an evaluation.*** Unless of course I'm being taken for a ride ............It's disturbing when some indviduals only purpose is to dsirupt others discussions..........Communicating effectively via words on a screen alone is challenging enough.

[Jet B]

Thank you for sending it in, I'll be looking forward to an evaluation.*** Unless of course I'm being taken for a ride ............It's disturbing when some indviduals only purpose is to dsirupt others discussions..........Communicating effectively via words on a screen alone is challenging enough.

I respect the way Spyderco and Sal do business too much to not send it in. Of course that's only if they tell me that it's worth their time to do so.

[mark408]

Here's the thing about these two claims...tell me if they pass the credibility test?

You buy a knife for something in the $250-275 range.

It breaks.

You don't send it back for warranty service and/or you throw it in the trash.

C'mon, really??? Was I born yesterday??? :rolleyes:

The 2 that I owned were given to me for free.

[mark408]

I remember you from BF.

Yes, you are trolling.





And I believe you too. :rolleyes: Spine whacking on a rag defeated the lock, you couldn't get a hold of Sal personally so you threw away a $260 knife.



heh!


Joe

If you remember me so well then you know I have a long and perfect purchase and sales reputation on BF and all the other knife forums.

The fact is you do not know me.

[dbcad]

If you remember me so well then you know I have a long and perfect purchase and sales reputation on BF and all the other knife forums.

The fact is you do not know me and IIRC it is your reputation that is questionable.

Trolls are trolls and serve nothing except to disrupt and agitate...........despicable.............

[mark408]

Still haven't received the knife. CS is aware of it as is everyone involved. Can't do much or even say much until we see the knife. Shouldn't be that difficult. If our customers have a problem, we try to solve them.

Hey Mark,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

Sorry for your negative experience. Customer Service is usually available. I'm not that hard to reach either. We usually respond favorably for the customer when there is a lock defeat. We also like to see the knife to determine possible causes.

sal

Sal, are you saying I did not make atleast one attempt to contact you regarding the tuff ?

You should still have my phone #

I have handled several of these knives...I have owned 2....I took one apart several times to examine it and attempted to contact you personally in private to give you my opinions and you ignored my emails.

The little I posted in a couple threads was mostly positive as I didn't see posting negative was worth the energy and the remarks to my posts here prove I was correct.

After you ignore my contact attempts I spoke a little with Ed about the knife I had taken apart several time....I had never tested the strength of the lock on that one....honestly it never crossed my mind as the lockbar is so short and the tension is so strong.....Finding the lock failure on the box stock knife was an accident....50% bar depth and would slip right through....looked like bad geometry on the blade tang.

If I had intentions of making up bull$hit and trolling I would have not thrown the knife in the trash and moved on.

I will say again that i was just doing some reading when I saw this thread and posted my experiance.

[mark408]

Ed, i hope you don't get offended ...I am just posting this pm to show a timeline to the few talkin smack here.


08-27-2012, 05:51 PM




Ed Schempp




Spyderco Forum Registered User


Join Date: Sep 2004Location: Ephrata, Washington USAPosts: 689


Re: Tuff








Originally Posted by mark408






Originally Posted by Ed Schempp






Originally Posted by mark408

Hi Ed, i just read your post #11.

I have handled 4 Tuffs right out of the box and they were all ridiculously tight.

I took one apart yesterday and these are my observations and opinions.

QC is terrible (IMO)...the spyder hole and frame edges are very sharp...the spyder holes on all of them will cut the finger and did.....the liner was also very sharp and has the potential to cut.

The pivot has no room for adjustment and minimal loostening will allow the blade to become off center...the ridiculous lock bar tention adds greatly to the effect.

I believe the O.D of the washers are to small for the size of the blade and the tension of the lock bar.

Tollerences are off and when the pivot os tightened the stacking twists the frame and both sides do not sit flat on the washers.

When the blade is in the closed position the tip is so close to the edge of the frame there is absoloutelt no room for any lack of detent.

I like the look of the knife and the materials used or i would not have wasted the energy...i do not buy the hard use answer for the tension on the lock bar.

I have many "hard use" knives and this kind of tension is not needed (IMO)...remember that at the end of the day, the highest percentage of purchasers of this knife will only cut paper ,boxes,etc....

This knife has great potential but i predict that the tension will kill it for most...already you see many have been sold as soon as received.

I have cleaned this knife up and am giving it a fair shot but I'm also considering dumping it...just don't feel the pro's are worth the cons and really feel the QC was terrible.

Just my honest opinions.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Mark
Hi Mark, thanks for your observations. The sharpness is the Spyderco hole are a spec that spyderco determines. This can be remedied by paper or stone demurring.

The short lock bar increases the failure strength tremendously. Frame locks and liner locks that use this leaf spring fail at surprising low pressures. In order to make the knife tuffer than others comes down to shortening the leaf to get the strength.

Some of these decisions I have no input. The knife does get easier to operate with use. The sharpness of the Spyder hole and the tension of the lock bar are something it takes getting used to. I have carry mine for about among and I can operate the knife without too much difficultly, but I have farmer hands.

I have taken mine apart and reassembled. I don't think it is a qc problem but an issue with Spyderco specs on the knife.

Spyderco breaks 3 of every design to find the failure strength. This knife was designed with a different lock that was stronger but in violation of another patent, my lock was stronger and smoother than any design marketed, but legal fees being what they are, Spydeco made some decisions.

This contractor usually does great work and usually does some operations that even the Japanese knives don't include.

Sorry that you have had some dissatisfaction with the piece, and I do appreciate your candid feedback...Take Care...Ed Thanks for the reply ED....I chamfered and polished the spyder hole to my liking and i have taken the knife apart several times and carefully masaged contact areas....the knife is actually very tollerable at this point while still retaining a strong detent to kkep the blade safely closed....one thing i have found is this knife operates much better with grease rather than oil which makes sense do to the presure from the lock bar....the detent ball has a great amount of friction against the 3V....do you think the 3V has a greater affect opposed to another steel.

Is there a specific reason the detent ball rides on the very outside radius of the blade ?

Thanks. Mark Hi Mark,
The detent balls are generally hardened 440 C and shouldn't wear against the 3V, it shouldn't be a problem. The detent rides on a radius outside the pivot bushing as close to the pivot hole as possible. Then when you release the blade the detent ball rides up on the tang immediately in the arc. There is just a lot of side pressure from the lock bar. Remember the goal of this knife was to approach fixed blade strength...Take Care...Ed

[dbcad]

That still doesn't obviate the fact that nothing has been sent back to spyderco to evaluate. Who throws a $250+ knife in the trash :confused:

The description of troll still sticks with me :)

[w3tnz]

thrown the knife in the trash and moved on

Really? What are you trying to achieve here Mark? We've heard your story so anything else?

[Minibear453]

If someone really wants to throw it in the trash, just mail it to me. I'll pay $20 for it. Then I'll ship it off to Spyderco and make a profit. :D

[Blerv]

So much proof. Eyes. Burning.

[Evil D]

I dunno. I feel like any more addition to this thread is just fueling the fire, but the logic behind all of this is just beyond my understanding. Let me see if i have this straight:

1. Guy buys an expensive knife, doesn't like it.
2. Guy contacts Ed Schempp, tells him about all the flaws in his design, and isn't happy with the response he gets.
3. Guy takes apart knife voiding the warranty, and in his own words "taken the knife apart several times and carefully masaged contact areas".
4. Guy supposedly spine whacks on a rag and defeats the lock of a knife that he has "taken the knife apart several times and carefully masaged contact areas"
5. Guy is shocked that the lock fails (after having modified it), and despite all his previous efforts to communicate with the designer, he decides the better avenue is to throw it in the trash rather than send it back to the maker to assess the flaws he tried to modify away.

The next logical step in my mind is to come to the forum and without any other explanation, come into the thread and call the knife garbage and say he threw it away. Amazingly, he's shocked that people see him as a troll for this. I'm shocked too.

Now, i'm not Sherlock Holmes, but to me something here doesn't add up. If i had to take an educated guess, if he actually did buy the knife and go through all this and actually did throw the knife away, i have a feeling the modifications were enough that he knows they'd have laughed at him and told him they're not doing anything since he modified it and/or that his modifications are the reason for the lock failing. If not, i can't even see a filthy rich person throwing away a $250+ knife because he felt it was unsafe. ****, at the very least they'd have returned it for a refund. Am i wrong?

[Cliff Stamp]

Who throws a $250+ knife in the trash

While that sounds at first to be odd, as the guy noted he was given the knives. I have been given knives for many reasons, often they are what I would classify as junk, though I would rarely use that word to describe them. Even if they had a valid warranty claim of service, if I was given the knife then it is very unlikely I would actually utilize the warranty.

In almost all cases I end up giving them to my brother, he tools with them a little and usually gives them to his friends. However if you don't have any friends which would appreciate it, and it clearly is not to your taste then throwing out a gift isn't that uncommon. Especially if it has flaws which you consider obvious and/or for some reason a bother.

The other thing to consider is that for many people $200 is not a lot of money. I don't know the OP, but to him discarding a $200 folder may be no different than if he was given a $2 folder as a gift which he may play with for a while but it is very unlikely he would actually keep.

[Jay_Ev]

While that sounds at first to be odd, as the guy noted he was given the knives. I have been given knives for many reasons, often they are what I would classify as junk, though I would rarely use that word to describe them. Even if they had a valid warranty claim of service, if I was given the knife then it is very unlikely I would actually utilize the warranty.

In almost all cases I end up giving them to my brother, he tools with them a little and usually gives them to his friends. However if you don't have any friends which would appreciate it, and it clearly is not to your taste then throwing out a gift isn't that uncommon. Especially if it has flaws which you consider obvious and/or for some reason a bother.

The other thing to consider is that for many people $200 is not a lot of money. I don't know the OP, but to him discarding a $200 folder may be no different than if he was given a $2 folder as a gift which he may play with for a while but it is very unlikely he would actually keep.

Excellent points, Cliff Stamp. Agreed 100%. In my opinion, all of the troll-calling is inappropriate and uncalled for. It creates an unpleasant atmosphere and possibly promotes an environment where a 'newbie' may hesitate and think twice before jumping in and being a part of the community.

As to the thread topic, three failed Tuffs is not really heartwarming news. I'm glad Spyderco is aware of these issues.

[Evil D]

Excellent points, Cliff Stamp. Agreed 100%. In my opinion, all of the troll-calling is inappropriate and uncalled for. It creates an unpleasant atmosphere and possibly promotes an environment where a 'newbie' may hesitate and think twice before jumping in and being a part of the community.

As to the thread topic, three failed Tuffs is not really heartwarming news. I'm glad Spyderco is aware of these issues.

All i'm saying is, had his first post been the one explaining his interactions with Ed, i wouldn't have seen it as trolling. When your first post is "i threw it away, that's what i do with trash", how can you expect anything different?

[Blerv]

Three supposed failed knives. No offense to anyone but until they are deemed a such I won't assume anything.

Why?

It costs me nothing to make a forum name and say I have a problem. It costs Spyderco a little reputation hit assuming three knives are junk. I wouldn't expect you to take my word. If I was talking about throwing them in the trash I also wouldn't expect anything but whimsy in response.

[Jay_Ev]

I'm not trying to split hairs and be difficult here, but in a roundabout way you kind of are assuming. You are assuming that these 3 individuals have some kind of deep-seated hidden agenda and for whatever reason that they are 'out to get' Spyderco or defile the good name of Spyderco. I don't see what they stand to gain by doing so.

If these 3 turn out to be full of B.S. then I humbly, deeply and sincerely apologize and will eat crow and / or humble pie for taking such a strong position on this issue.

[Cliff Stamp]

When your first post is "i threw it away, that's what i do with trash", how can you expect anything different?

I don't know the guy personally, but he could simply not be that invested in the product/company/designer. Have you really never used something, found it to be horribly defective (in your opinion) and then just threw it out. If someone asked you, is it that unlikely that would be your first instinct.

I have never handled one of those knives, interesting design, and yes if I had one and it was problematic I would make a call/email and then return it, but simply because someone does not doesn't mean absolutely they are trolling.