Janky grind on K390 Delica Wharncliffe

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Not the worst I’ve seen on a wharncliffe blade.
I had a Rough Rodger wharny once that was more like a full on recurve! But it was very cheap. …unlike the Delica.

Send it back if you can.

One of the main draws of a wharncliffe blade is the edge is easy to sharpen - yours is not going to be, and because of the state it’s in you will need to hog a lot of life off that edge with diamond stones for it to become straight and even.

The bare minimum of new knife ownership in my opinion is that don’t have to spend hours of your life rubbing your new knife on a diamond stone before you even get to cut anything with it.

I contacted the seller (National Knives). They checked their remaining inventory and said every Delica K390 had a similar “hawkbill” profile toward the tip.

Send back for a refund then put a wanted ad out there. There must be plenty of K390 wharny delicas in circulation that do not have a hawksbill - I own one myself.

I have no idea how Seki are allowed to pass off hawkbill shaped blades as a Wharncliffe. The Wharncliffe blade shape is supposed to have a straight edge, it is essentially it’s defining feature.

Maybe the apprentice was doing the grinding …or maybe he was on QC inspection that day?

I think it's quite the exaggeration to call the knife a hawkbill, it's so slight it needs a straight edge to be seen. If you got a perfectly straight one then I'd ask to first, show us a picture of the factory edge with a straight edge for reference. Even if you did get a perfect one, a sample size of one does not give you an accurate prediction of whether yours is the norm or not.

As I've said earlier, have you actually tried to sharpen this type of blade on a grinder? If you haven't, then it's obvious that you have no idea how difficult it is to be perfectly straight off the grinder. Apprentice or not, the job pictured in the OP is not as bad as you make it out to be and it's not going to take hours for the OP to fix this.

[endura3]

My K390 wharnie came from the factory pretty uneven too - I don't have any pictures prior to sharpening but it was noticeably uneven with that same mini 'hawkbill' near the tip and another uneven spot near the heel of the blade.

It sharpened up just fine - the only downside was that I had to take off a lot of material to get the edge straight enough to sharpen properly on a bench stone.

How did you true up the edge?

I just used an atoma 140 grit diamond plate. It helps to mark up the edge with a sharpie so you can see (assuming your stone/plate is flat) where you've removed material and what areas still haven't made contact with the stone as you're progressing. At a low grit this is a pretty quick job - it took me maybe 20 minutes on the coarse plate including reprofiling to a more acute edge angle, and the sharpie helps a lot so you can actually tell what parts of the edge need to get trued up.

I sharpen all my PE knives on stones/plates so I have to do this in order to actually be able to sharpen the knife correctly. Back in the day when I was just getting into sharpening I bought a few wharncliffes under the assumption they would be "easier" to sharpen... that's true once the edge is straight, but in my experience they usually aren't and some degree of reprofiling like this is necessary. This includes wharnies from Hinderer, GEC, and a couple other manufacturers. I'm sure some companies have it down perfectly, but you see a lot of variation for sure.

[ejames13]

My K390 wharnie came from the factory pretty uneven too - I don't have any pictures prior to sharpening but it was noticeably uneven with that same mini 'hawkbill' near the tip and another uneven spot near the heel of the blade.

It sharpened up just fine - the only downside was that I had to take off a lot of material to get the edge straight enough to sharpen properly on a bench stone.

How did you true up the edge?

I just used an atoma 140 grit diamond plate. It helps to mark up the edge with a sharpie so you can see (assuming your stone/plate is flat) where you've removed material and what areas still haven't made contact with the stone as you're progressing. At a low grit this is a pretty quick job - it took me maybe 20 minutes on the coarse plate including reprofiling to a more acute edge angle, and the sharpie helps a lot so you can actually tell what parts of the edge need to get trued up.

I sharpen all my PE knives on stones/plates so I have to do this in order to actually be able to sharpen the knife correctly. Back in the day when I was just getting into sharpening I bought a few wharncliffes under the assumption they would be "easier" to sharpen... that's true once the edge is straight, but in my experience they usually aren't and some degree of reprofiling like this is necessary. This includes wharnies from Hinderer, GEC, and a couple other manufacturers. I'm sure some companies have it down perfectly, but you see a lot of variation for sure.

Nice. Thanks. I have a 140 grit diamond plate as well. You just sharpened as normal until the edge evened all the way out from tip to heel?

[endura3]

Nice. Thanks. I have a 140 grit diamond plate as well. You just sharpened as normal until the edge evened all the way out from tip to heel?

Yeah that's right! Pretty straightforward process, especially with the sharpie.

[ejames13]

Nice. Thanks. I have a 140 grit diamond plate as well. You just sharpened as normal until the edge evened all the way out from tip to heel?

Yeah that's right! Pretty straightforward process, especially with the sharpie.

Cool. Thanks again.

[Flash]

Not the worst I’ve seen on a wharncliffe blade.
I had a Rough Rodger wharny once that was more like a full on recurve! But it was very cheap. …unlike the Delica.

Send it back if you can.

One of the main draws of a wharncliffe blade is the edge is easy to sharpen - yours is not going to be, and because of the state it’s in you will need to hog a lot of life off that edge with diamond stones for it to become straight and even.

The bare minimum of new knife ownership in my opinion is that don’t have to spend hours of your life rubbing your new knife on a diamond stone before you even get to cut anything with it.

I contacted the seller (National Knives). They checked their remaining inventory and said every Delica K390 had a similar “hawkbill” profile toward the tip.

Send back for a refund then put a wanted ad out there. There must be plenty of K390 wharny delicas in circulation that do not have a hawksbill - I own one myself.

I have no idea how Seki are allowed to pass off hawkbill shaped blades as a Wharncliffe. The Wharncliffe blade shape is supposed to have a straight edge, it is essentially it’s defining feature.

Maybe the apprentice was doing the grinding …or maybe he was on QC inspection that day?

I think it's quite the exaggeration to call the knife a hawkbill, it's so slight it needs a straight edge to be seen. If you got a perfectly straight one then I'd ask to first, show us a picture of the factory edge with a straight edge for reference. Even if you did get a perfect one, a sample size of one does not give you an accurate prediction of whether yours is the norm or not.

As I've said earlier, have you actually tried to sharpen this type of blade on a grinder? If you haven't, then it's obvious that you have no idea how difficult it is to be perfectly straight off the grinder. Apprentice or not, the job pictured in the OP is not as bad as you make it out to be and it's not going to take hours for the OP to fix this.

Yes it is an exaggeration to call it Hawkbill but on that basis it’s also an equally long stretch to call it a wharncliffe now isn’t it?

Edge termination aside, I’m happy with how my Delica blade arrived - it requires no input or assessment from you. Thanks.
Thats not to say I’m particularly happy with how it is constructed or it’s blade play, but I digress…

Hours, minutes, seconds… it doesn’t matter, it’s all time and effort spent where it shouldn’t be on a brand new knife.
I don’t grind Wharncliffe blades for a living but I’m sure as sh1t if I did they’d get to my customers in better condition than that.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I contacted the seller (National Knives). They checked their remaining inventory and said every Delica K390 had a similar “hawkbill” profile toward the tip.

Send back for a refund then put a wanted ad out there. There must be plenty of K390 wharny delicas in circulation that do not have a hawksbill - I own one myself.

I have no idea how Seki are allowed to pass off hawkbill shaped blades as a Wharncliffe. The Wharncliffe blade shape is supposed to have a straight edge, it is essentially it’s defining feature.

Maybe the apprentice was doing the grinding …or maybe he was on QC inspection that day?

I think it's quite the exaggeration to call the knife a hawkbill, it's so slight it needs a straight edge to be seen. If you got a perfectly straight one then I'd ask to first, show us a picture of the factory edge with a straight edge for reference. Even if you did get a perfect one, a sample size of one does not give you an accurate prediction of whether yours is the norm or not.

As I've said earlier, have you actually tried to sharpen this type of blade on a grinder? If you haven't, then it's obvious that you have no idea how difficult it is to be perfectly straight off the grinder. Apprentice or not, the job pictured in the OP is not as bad as you make it out to be and it's not going to take hours for the OP to fix this.

Yes it is an exaggeration to call it Hawkbill but on that basis it’s also an equally long stretch to call it a wharncliffe now isn’t it?

Edge termination aside, I’m happy with how my Delica blade arrived - it requires no input or assessment from you. Thanks.
Thats not to say I’m particularly happy with how it is constructed or it’s blade play, but I digress…

Hours, minutes, seconds… it doesn’t matter, it’s all time and effort spent where it shouldn’t be on a brand new knife.
I don’t grind Wharncliffe blades for a living but I’m sure as sh1t if I did they’d get to my customers in better condition than that.

So you have zero actual evidence to actually document that yours was perfect and are making a giant assumption that you can do better than some random dude who may have all of five minutes given to him to put a decent edge on the knife to meet production volume/schedule constraints. Perfection is not the primary factor in a production business, productivity is.

I don't believe it's a stretch to call it a wharnecliffe as it's literally the exact blade shape you are given despite shipping with an imperfect edge. It doesn't magically become a hawkbill with an EXTREME exaggerated recurve because you say it is the same thing. By your logic if I put a flat spot along the belly of a hunting knife it becomes a wharnecliff magically. Huh?

You saying a brand new knife *shouldn't* require effort to improve the edge is laughable to me as I've literally built a solid income source on fixing these *quirks* that are ALWAYS common on factory knife edges. They all have them in my experience no matter $ value and I fix them in the process of sharpening so I'll just go ahead and disagree with you politely.

That is the difference between someone like yourself and me, I personally EXPECT there to be a number of imperfections potentially on a *production* knife. This is not some bespoke piece that's handmade by the most highly skilled and perfectionist of craftsman to ever walk the earth. Let's not over think this, it's a small matter... not the end of the world.

[Skywalker]

For OP, to give a couple other Spyderco wharncliffe examples to compare -

These are a S30V Delica, K390 Delica, K390 Endela. Photos taken with my phone, trying to keep things level and square with the internal phone level but probably still subject to fisheye and focal length issues vs the human eye. Flat surface is a relatively new Spyderco medium benchstone.

Also, to show details pics not resized.

S30V Delica and K390 Endela have been sharpened on a Spyderco CBN benchstone and that same medium benchstone, though neither heavily - certainly wouldn't say "reprofiled" for either. K390 Delica is new and unused/unsharpened so far.

S30V Delica - maybe a very slight hook at the tip? Other point of contact appears to be a quarter of the way down the blade from the heel. The small chip/dent 80% of the way down is on me.


K390 Delica - definitely a slight hook at the tip, and also a relatively uneven width edge bevel. Other point of contact looks to be a third of the way down the blade.


K390 Endela - unlike the Delicas, no hook at the tip, but apparently a very slight belly with the blade contacting the stone only about halfway down its length.


Here's all three from a slightly greater distance:


Without a flat surface or phone camera grid lines to compare against the only one that really jumps out at me as "not quite a straight edge" is the K390 Delica for the little hook at the tip. Personally I have no issues with any of them as users that I'm sharpening myself. Still considering picking up a couple more while the disco'd K390 are available because this Endela is really growing on me.


OP, can't tell you whether yours should bother you or not, or what is or isn't within the bounds of acceptable QC for Spyderco, but hopefully that gives a little more idea of the variability that's out there on the Seki wharncliffes.

[ejames13]

For OP, to give a couple other Spyderco wharncliffe examples to compare -

These are a S30V Delica, K390 Delica, K390 Endela. Photos taken with my phone, trying to keep things level and square with the internal phone level but probably still subject to fisheye and focal length issues vs the human eye. Flat surface is a relatively new Spyderco medium benchstone.

Also, to show details pics not resized.

S30V Delica and K390 Endela have been sharpened on a Spyderco CBN benchstone and that same medium benchstone, though neither heavily - certainly wouldn't say "reprofiled" for either. K390 Delica is new and unused/unsharpened so far.

S30V Delica - maybe a very slight hook at the tip? Other point of contact appears to be a quarter of the way down the blade from the heel. The small chip/dent 80% of the way down is on me.


K390 Delica - definitely a slight hook at the tip, and also a relatively uneven width edge bevel. Other point of contact looks to be a third of the way down the blade.


K390 Endela - unlike the Delicas, no hook at the tip, but apparently a very slight belly with the blade contacting the stone only about halfway down its length.


Here's all three from a slightly greater distance:


Without a flat surface or phone camera grid lines to compare against the only one that really jumps out at me as "not quite a straight edge" is the K390 Delica for the little hook at the tip. Personally I have no issues with any of them as users that I'm sharpening myself. Still considering picking up a couple more while the disco'd K390 are available because this Endela is really growing on me.


OP, can't tell you whether yours should bother you or not, or what is or isn't within the bounds of acceptable QC for Spyderco, but hopefully that gives a little more idea of the variability that's out there on the Seki wharncliffes.

Appreciate the comparison photos!

[Flash]

@Traditional.Sharpening

I don’t understand why you are asking me to provide evidence so you can answer a question that was not being asked? I’m absolutely fine with the blade on my K390 Wharncliffe Delica. I do not need your input to tell me my blade is fine. If it was like the OP’s, it would have been straight back to where I bought it without a moments hesitation.

I don’t recall saying I could grind better than anyone?? I’m saying I wouldn’t let something like that reach a customer, Regardless of production quotas etc etc.

Perfection - no, a standard relative to the purchase price - yes.

Let’s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed. The only reason someone would be paying a premium for the K390 versions would be the performance the blade provides. Performance that would be cut short the moment you run the edge at 90 degrees to that diamond stone in an effort to undo the shoddy grind.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

@Traditional.Sharpening

I don’t understand why you are asking me to provide evidence so you can answer a question that was not being asked? I’m absolutely fine with the blade on my K390 Wharncliffe Delica. I do not need your input to tell me my blade is fine. If it was like the OP’s, it would have been straight back to where I bought it without a moments hesitation.

I don’t recall saying I could grind better than anyone?? I’m saying I wouldn’t let something like that reach a customer, Regardless of production quotas etc etc.

Perfection - no, a standard relative to the purchase price - yes.

Let’s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed. The only reason someone would be paying a premium for the K390 versions would be the performance the blade provides. Performance that would be cut short the moment you run the edge at 90 degrees to that diamond stone in an effort to undo the shoddy grind.

I'm asking you to provide evidence that it's even remotely common to find a perfectly flat wharnecliffe bevel on a production knife, in general. I'm not saying your blade is not fine but your argument seems rather nonsensical at this point given that it's both common across various makers and product lines. We haven't seen even one example of perfect flat.

This fact is well illustrated in the thread here and the reality is that there would likely not be many or maybe any wharnecliff blades sent to customers given your high standards for a factory edge. As I said, the repeatability in a reasonable time frame is not feasible. Your standard is entirely subjective and that's fine but I find it unreasonable.

Here is my point, without citing numerous examples of wharnecliff blades that are perfect to your standards you don't even know that it's reasonable but you are still standing strong with your view. We don't live in a perfect world, humans are not perfect and their machinery and tools are no different. You'd be out of business based on your standards, in short order.

[navin johnson]

Seems like it would only take a few sharpenings. So……why not just use it?

It is a volume produced product

[Skywalker]

...

Let’s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed.

...

Hold on now, that's quite the jump from "the wharncliffe Delica edges should be straighter/need better QC"

[Enactive]

This thread turned into a wreck. Y'all are ruining the vibe around here.

Happy New Year!

[Traditional.Sharpening]

This thread turned into a wreck. Y'all are ruining the vibe around here.

Happy New Year!

This thread needs better QC, lol.

[Tristan_david2001]

Those wharnies look mean with a subtle hawkbilly droop at the top. I think you just received a meaner wharnie.
But seriously. I kinda get the complaint. But I think after a good sharpening that should be a completely no issue fix to straighten it out a little better,

[ejames13]

...

Let’s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed.

...

Hold on now, that's quite the jump from "the wharncliffe Delica edges should be straighter/need better QC"

Truly. Them’s fightin words!

[w3tnz]

Meh, looks pretty straight aside from the couple of high spots, that would sharpen out..

[sal]

So now I hear that my Delica design is outdated and flawed after 33 years and multiple refinements and several generations, and millions in the field. At least I have, based on the sales and customer response, argument against that concept. I guess each is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions. So I guess Flash is an expert in the industry with superior and absolute knowledge? He will probably be happier buying someone else's designs. I'll try not to take it personal as I still have a few others that like my outdated and flawed Delica design.

sal

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"We all operate at different levels of imperfection"

[sal]

This thread turned into a wreck. Y'all are ruining the vibe around here.

Happy New Year!

Hi Enactive,

Thanx. We do try hard to keep a friendly comfortable forum. Happy New Year to you as well.

sal
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"It takes all kinds of animals to make a forest. Without the leeches and mosquitoes, one may not appreciate the hawks and the deer".