Military with Compression Lock?

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Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Doc Dan » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:07 am

We’ve talked about this in years past, I know. It’s been a while. I don’t care for detent dependent locks much. I do t hate them, but I prefer other locks. I have good liner locks, frame locks, and exactly one comp lock. I don’t trust liner locks on hard use knives, at all. However, the Compression Lock is a whole different animal. I wonder if the Compression lock would be a good fit for the Military?
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Mushroom » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:15 am

If I recall correctly, Spyderco already has a compression lock Military 2 prototype that they’ve been testing. :cool:

Edit: After searching, I found this post from Sal - in a thread discussing the Military 2.
sal wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:30 pm
I have a Compression lock prototype.

sal
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Pancake » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:30 am

My wild guess is that we get Military 2 with comp lock this year.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:31 am

Yep, I know for sure Sal mentioned having a comp.lock Millie prototype, for I was one of several who put that into the "bombshell-thread"... ;)

I don´t have anything against the comp.lock, it´s a cool and ingenious design that certainly has its place!

Still, a well done linerlock (and the Millie has one of the best I personally have ever seen) is better for my personal use.

So, like Doc Dan, I really do NOT hate the compression lock, BUT I´d honestly hate if the linerlock Millie would actually get replaced by a comp.lock Millie 2...

So many comp.lock knives to choose from already in the mid- and higher end Spyderco range, it would be a shame if the perfect, iconic, liner-lock Millie would disappear for yet another comp.lock knife!!
As an additional alternative: Sure, comp.lock Millie is fine!

The Millie was designed as a large, outdoorsy folder, that´s a scenario were a linerlock imho clearly beats a comp.lock (easier to use with gloves or cold/wet hands, knife is safer in the hand when operating the lock and so on).
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby James Y » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:04 am

It would be nice if a compression lock Millie were an option, along with the liner lock original. The Millie is (IMO) the finest example of a liner lock I know of. As long as the detent is solid enough to keep it in the closed position, I do consider the compression lock safer to operate. I don’t ‘drop shut’ my compression lock knives; I manipulate them closed deliberately, which for me is about as quick, and much safer, than depressing the lock and swinging or dropping the blade shut.

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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:03 pm

James Y wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:04 am
It would be nice if a compression lock Millie were an option, along with the liner lock original. The Millie is (IMO) the finest example of a liner lock I know of. As long as the detent is solid enough to keep it in the closed position, I do consider the compression lock safer to operate. I don’t ‘drop shut’ my compression lock knives; I manipulate them closed deliberately, which for me is about as quick, and much safer, than depressing the lock and swinging or dropping the blade shut.

Jim
Interesting! How exactly do you "manipulate" the comp.lock?

For me, when "manipulating", the liner lock is a a bit safer (though both are just fine)

I depress both liner and comp.lock with the index finger and "guide" the blade with the thumb
With the liner lock for me this feels safer (especially concerning dropping the knife, not necessarely "finger safety", but that´s not a concern of mine) and the knife lies more "natural" in hand.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Mushroom » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:09 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:03 pm
James Y wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:04 am
It would be nice if a compression lock Millie were an option, along with the liner lock original. The Millie is (IMO) the finest example of a liner lock I know of. As long as the detent is solid enough to keep it in the closed position, I do consider the compression lock safer to operate. I don’t ‘drop shut’ my compression lock knives; I manipulate them closed deliberately, which for me is about as quick, and much safer, than depressing the lock and swinging or dropping the blade shut.

Jim
Interesting! How exactly do you "manipulate" the comp.lock?

For me, when "manipulating", the liner lock is a a bit safer (though both are just fine)

I depress both liner and comp.lock with the index finger and "guide" the blade with the thumb
With the liner lock for me this feels safer (especially concerning dropping the knife, not necessarely "finger safety", but that´s not a concern of mine) and the knife lies more "natural" in hand.
The compression lock is innately safer because the users fingers never have to cross the path of the closing blade. This is unavoidable with a liner lock.

By design, the compression lock is safer to manipulate than a liner lock.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:25 pm

Boy I had a loooong reply typed out here but it got really super convoluted so rather than make everyone skim through that I'll just say, while I don't exactly love the liner lock, it works beautifully on the Military and I think it would be a shame to change that. I think a lot of the desire for a compression lock on this knife is a really simple matter of preference outweighing function. I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, but at least for me I just simply like the compression lock more, it fidgets better and it has more wow factor. But if I'm honest, the liner lock works better in gloves, and at least as far as the Military is concerned I think it's the perfect lock for this knife.

I will also say, I already own pretty much all of the Military versions I could ever want, at least until some other super duper steel comes along and we get another sprint. So, chances are pretty good I would at least try out a CL Military. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here, hence the giant wall of text I deleted to type out this. I just think sometimes our preferences get in the way of what might be a better choice. A Prius makes the most logical sense for me as a daily driver, but I would get a lot more enjoyment from driving my Mustang despite the fact that it gets like 12mpg or something like that. So, while I understand people' choosing what they like and simply enjoy, I also have to give credit where it's due and say the liner lock is probably the perfect lock for the Military (or for a knife that that was designed in part to be used with gloves). I have used Military's extensively as well as several model knives with compression locks, and honestly the liner lock is FAR superior when wearing gloves, despite my preference for the CL as a more fun and interesting lock design.

And it still ended up way more wordy than I wanted :rolleyes:
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:29 pm

Mushroom wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:09 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:03 pm
James Y wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:04 am
Interesting! How exactly do you "manipulate" the comp.lock?

For me, when "manipulating", the liner lock is a a bit safer (though both are just fine)

I depress both liner and comp.lock with the index finger and "guide" the blade with the thumb
With the liner lock for me this feels safer (especially concerning dropping the knife, not necessarely "finger safety", but that´s not a concern of mine) and the knife lies more "natural" in hand.
The compression lock is innately safer because the users fingers never have to cross the path of the closing blade. This is unavoidable with a liner lock.

By design, the compression lock is safer to manipulate than a liner lock.

That is entirely true, no doubt!

But:
1.) James Y said, he´d NOT "depress the lock and swing the blade shut" but "deliberately manipulate" the blade to "closed". This, while fingers STILL are less in the bladepath than it is with a linerlock, changes things a bit.
2.) Just imho safety trough "fingers never in the blade path" should really not be an issue for somewhat experienced knife users, especially when a knife has a choil like the Millie has.
To me safety concerning how safe and not likely to be drop the knife is in your hand while manipulating the lock (especially in cold, wet outdoor conditions) is way more important then the "finger safety". And THAT is where a linerlock for me is better and more "natural" to operate than a comp.lock.

But again, in "normal",urban conditions both are just fine. A knife like the Millie though should imho rather be designed for "less than ideal" outdoor conditions, and that´s where I´d take a linerlock over a comp.lock no doubt, especially when wearing gloves.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:29 pm

Mushroom wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:09 pm

The compression lock is innately safer because the users fingers never have to cross the path of the closing blade. This is unavoidable with a liner lock.

By design, the compression lock is safer to manipulate than a liner lock.

You're not wrong entirely, it depends on the design of the knife. If you press the liner lock and allow the blade of a Nilakka to swing closed, then yeah you're probably going to get cut. On a Military though, you have to put your fingers way down on the grip to get them under the edge because of the finger choil. If you just let the blade drop closed onto the same thumb that's pressing the liner lock, the choil will hit your thumb and you won't be cut. Yeah, you lose that whole "blade drops closed" thing that we all love, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the CL is a safer lock, especially for someone who gets distracted and puts a finger in the path of that swinging blade. I am absolutely one of the "drop shutty" guys and it's one of the things I love about the CL, but I have to admit there is a lot of danger involved with a free swinging blade if you get a finger in the way. If we want to make this a matter of which lock is safest, I would choose the Plunge Lock that's used on the automatics, since I have to deliberately force the blade closed and so if I manage to cut myself while closing the knife it's definitely my fault.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Doc Dan » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:33 pm

I think the comp lock with a larger tab would be better, safer, and stronger.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:37 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:25 pm
Boy I had a loooong reply typed out here but it got really super convoluted so rather than make everyone skim through that I'll just say, while I don't exactly love the liner lock, it works beautifully on the Military and I think it would be a shame to change that. I think a lot of the desire for a compression lock on this knife is a really simple matter of preference outweighing function. I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, but at least for me I just simply like the compression lock more, it fidgets better and it has more wow factor. But if I'm honest, the liner lock works better in gloves, and at least as far as the Military is concerned I think it's the perfect lock for this knife.

....

Very well said, David!
I always hesitate to state that I think the comp.lock is a fun and enjoyable lock, especially (!but not ONLY!!) for people who want to "fidget" with their knives from the get go without having to practice and have a closing method where the fingers are entirely safe again without having to really practice.. it COULD sound a bit arrogant to say that, but this is in no way what I want to imply. An easy and fun lock for just EVERYONE (= comp.lock) is a good thing, and whoever likes to practice a bit with other locks can still do so anyway and THEN discover the potential advantages of those other locktypes.

But I think the Millie is "more functional" in real, outdoor use with the perfect linerlock it already has.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby VashHash » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:37 pm

The lock spyderco uses for their autonomy and autonomy 2 is just a modified compression lock.

I wouldn't mind seeing an auto military with that lock.

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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:42 pm

Doc Dan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:33 pm
I think the comp lock with a larger tab would be better, safer, and stronger.

The issue would be, the larger the cutout slot, the more the blade edge is allowed to go into that slot. You would have to put a choil or ricasso or some kind of blade cutout to allow the blade to close and not hit your finger.

Talking about which is stronger will get us debating about lock strengths which is a whole other can of worms. I'll just say that I would expect the blade to break before either of these locks fail me under reasonable pocket knife use.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:46 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:37 pm

Very well said, David!
I always hesitate to state that I think the comp.lock is a fun and enjoyable lock, especially (!but not ONLY!!) for people who want to "fidget" with their knives from the get go without having to practice and have a closing method where the fingers are entirely safe again without having to really practice.. it COULD sound a bit arrogant to say that, but this is in no way what I want to imply. An easy and fun lock for just EVERYONE (= comp.lock) is a good thing, and whoever likes to practice a bit with other locks can still do so anyway and THEN discover the potential advantages of those other locktypes.

But I think the Millie is "more functional" in real, outdoor use with the perfect linerlock it already has.


I don't get all the hate over guys fidgeting with their knives. Part of the hobby for me is the design of the lock and pivot action, and in real world use I'm not really enjoying those parts of a knife as much, since you open/use/close the knife and most of the time spent actually using the knife is focused more on cutting things and ergonomics and such. The only way to really study a lock and pivot and how they function is to open and close it and fiddle with it. People who think the knife hobby is just about using a knife should just go out and buy the simplest/cheapest box knife they can find since that'll be the most effective if all you care about is cutting materials. Everyone has their parts of the hobby they love, some focus more on steel while others enjoy locks and pivot functions. I try to get as much from my purchases as I can so I enjoy all of it equally.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby PStone » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:52 pm

I am a supporter of the liner lock on the Millie. I wouldn’t change a thing. But could a Paramilitary2 XL be considered? Kind of like how the original manix evolved into the Manix2 xl?
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:56 pm

PStone wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:52 pm
I am a supporter of the liner lock on the Millie. I wouldn’t change a thing. But could a Paramilitary2 XL be considered? Kind of like how the original manix evolved into the Manix2 xl?

With the overall success of the Para 2 and now the Para 3 I'm really shocked it hasn't already happened. I think it's the perfect solution to this whole debate....the people who love the Military as it is will keep what they have and the people who want a CL version with a 4 way clip will get what they want. It's probably the only way to make everyone happy. I don't think it would be any more redundant than the Police 4 being as similar to the Military as it is. I think marketing wise they'll sell a lot more Paramilitary XL's than they'll sell Military 2's.
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:01 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:46 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:37 pm

Very well said, David!
I always hesitate to state that I think the comp.lock is a fun and enjoyable lock, especially (!but not ONLY!!) for people who want to "fidget" with their knives from the get go without having to practice and have a closing method where the fingers are entirely safe again without having to really practice.. it COULD sound a bit arrogant to say that, but this is in no way what I want to imply. An easy and fun lock for just EVERYONE (= comp.lock) is a good thing, and whoever likes to practice a bit with other locks can still do so anyway and THEN discover the potential advantages of those other locktypes.

But I think the Millie is "more functional" in real, outdoor use with the perfect linerlock it already has.


I don't get all the hate over guys fidgeting with their knives. Part of the hobby for me is the design of the lock and pivot action, and in real world use I'm not really enjoying those parts of a knife as much, since you open/use/close the knife and most of the time spent actually using the knife is focused more on cutting things and ergonomics and such. The only way to really study a lock and pivot and how they function is to open and close it and fiddle with it. People who think the knife hobby is just about using a knife should just go out and buy the simplest/cheapest box knife they can find since that'll be the most effective if all you care about is cutting materials. Everyone has their parts of the hobby they love, some focus more on steel while others enjoy locks and pivot functions. I try to get as much from my purchases as I can so I enjoy all of it equally.
Not sure if I get you right and/or if you got ME right... ;)

I personally LOVE to fidget with my knives, do it all the time (flick my backlocks with each finger and so on) and so obviously can´t "hate" guys who do so!

All I tried to say is: I think it is actually one of the great things of a comp.lock, that really everybody CAN fidget with a comp.lock knife without much practicing and effort just from the get go!

Let´s take my favorite lock, the backlock, on the other hand: It takes a lot more practice and time to really be able to "fidget" a backlock knife, and totally understandable not everybody wants to take this time and effort
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Evil D » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:04 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:01 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:46 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:37 pm

Very well said, David!
I always hesitate to state that I think the comp.lock is a fun and enjoyable lock, especially (!but not ONLY!!) for people who want to "fidget" with their knives from the get go without having to practice and have a closing method where the fingers are entirely safe again without having to really practice.. it COULD sound a bit arrogant to say that, but this is in no way what I want to imply. An easy and fun lock for just EVERYONE (= comp.lock) is a good thing, and whoever likes to practice a bit with other locks can still do so anyway and THEN discover the potential advantages of those other locktypes.

But I think the Millie is "more functional" in real, outdoor use with the perfect linerlock it already has.


I don't get all the hate over guys fidgeting with their knives. Part of the hobby for me is the design of the lock and pivot action, and in real world use I'm not really enjoying those parts of a knife as much, since you open/use/close the knife and most of the time spent actually using the knife is focused more on cutting things and ergonomics and such. The only way to really study a lock and pivot and how they function is to open and close it and fiddle with it. People who think the knife hobby is just about using a knife should just go out and buy the simplest/cheapest box knife they can find since that'll be the most effective if all you care about is cutting materials. Everyone has their parts of the hobby they love, some focus more on steel while others enjoy locks and pivot functions. I try to get as much from my purchases as I can so I enjoy all of it equally.
Not sure if I get you right and/or if you got ME right... ;)

I personally LOVE to fidget with my knives, do it all the time (flick my backlocks with each finger and so on) and so obviously can´t "hate" guys who do so!

All I tried to say is: I think it is actually one of the great things of a comp.lock, that really everybody CAN fidget with a comp.lock knife without much practicing and effort just from the get go!

Let´s take my favorite lock, the backlock, on the other hand: It takes a lot more practice and time to really be able to "fidget" a backlock knife, and totally understandable not everybody wants to take this time and effort


No I didn't mean that like YOU don't like fidgeting, it's just something I've seen people talk down about in the past and I don't really get it. I'm on your side :D
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Re: Military with Compression Lock?

Postby Mushroom » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:10 pm

In general, I’m not worried or fearful of using either lock. I use both and like them both for different reasons. I would even say they’re both 100% safe when used properly. I agree with others who would prefer to see the compression lock Military as an option along side the current liner lock. Opposed to replacing it.

Of course the addition of a choil will change the risk involved with a liner lock knife. Things can be done in most situations to make them safer. The thing is though, not every liner lock knife has a choil, but EVERY liner lock knife requires your fingers to cross the path of the closing blade. By design, there’s no way around this.

Also, I recognize the potential for injury with a free swinging blade. There are a number of things that could happen when closing a compression lock but by design your fingers do not HAVE to cross the path of that free swinging blade like they do with a liner lock.

I guess it’s wrong for me to call one or the other “safer” when it comes to controlled use. Potential for an accidental injury is present regardless of the lock type.

Sorry for derailing the thread, it is not my intention. :o
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