Spyderco Forums

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:18 pm

cabfrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:57 pm

I don't know if you should do it, but if you are determined to, what about an auto parts yard or junkyard? I don't know if you have those, but we do here.

Thanks, and yes of course we have that too! Iam sure the owners of one will let me stab a car door with the tiny Chap.
We'll see how this will work out! I am positive that the Chap blade will make it through the sheath metal with nothing like an a bit blunted tip (which would be the case with most folders)

If you do this test, please, please wear cut resistant gloves. The best you can afford. Even after severing just one tendon in one minor finger, I can tell you from experience that you'll regret not have protected your hands & fingers.

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:04 pm

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:18 pm

cabfrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:57 pm

I don't know if you should do it, but if you are determined to, what about an auto parts yard or junkyard? I don't know if you have those, but we do here.

Thanks, and yes of course we have that too! Iam sure the owners of one will let me stab a car door with the tiny Chap.
We'll see how this will work out! I am positive that the Chap blade will make it through the sheath metal with nothing like an a bit blunted tip (which would be the case with most folders)

If you do this test, please, please wear cut resistant gloves. The best you can afford. Even after severing just one tendon in one minor finger, I can tell you from experience that you'll regret not have protected your hands & fingers.

Absolutely, eye protection as well.

Evil D wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:45 pm

It definitely won't be as comfortable for thumb placement, you can already feel this when using thinner knives like the Centofante 3 or Chaparral.

Glad to see this mentioned, I don't see it referenced often. I apply thumb pressure to the spine of a knife for more forceful, or more controlled, cuts. Blade stock under 3mm thick is less comfortable for that use. It's more important to how I use my knives than pure FFG slicing. But I'm glad that Spyderco has thinner options for those who prefer it!

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:04 pm

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:18 pm

cabfrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:57 pm

.....

Thanks, and yes of course we have that too! Iam sure the owners of one will let me stab a car door with the tiny Chap.
We'll see how this will work out! I am positive that the Chap blade will make it through the sheath metal with nothing like an a bit blunted tip (which would be the case with most folders)

If you do this test, please, please wear cut resistant gloves. The best you can afford. Even after severing just one tendon in one minor finger, I can tell you from experience that you'll regret not have protected your hands & fingers.

TkoK83Spy wrote:

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:04 pm

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:18 pm

cabfrank wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:57 pm

Absolutely, eye protection as well.

Thanks, guys, I really do appreciate your concern and advice!!

But as you know: The Chap FRN has turned out to be a very good little hard use knife for me (for its size(!) and actually to my total surprise).
Main thing I want to further test is of course the strength of its blade and tip, but actually also how well the handle works with bare hands, how good one is locked in, how comfortable or not such a thin handle can be specifically in stabbing a car door.

The one thing I have quite some experience in is actually USING folders (as opposed to steel knowledge, sharpening skills and so on), and so I think I can do it safely without gloves. After all I´ve stabbed the Chap (and other folders) with a lot of force into wood and other harder stuff multiple times (just to really know what I am talking about when it comes to "Chap hard use").

Let me post the recently shared vid again , just watch (first minute) what Shawn does with the Police without gloves (of course the Police handle is a lot more suited for such tasks, just, but not only, by size) https://youtu.be/E-c3LxQbcqg

But I´ll start out with lighter stabs and WITH gloves to get a feel for it, ok?

And I DON`T recommend to anyone stabbing a folder in a car door with or without gloves unless one is not absolutely sure what they are doing!

The tendons on the inner part of your finger actually go up from your fingers and into your forearm. Once severed, they start retracting up the finger, up the hand, then up the arm. Repairs are generally more difficult than the outer tendons and generally have a lower success rate. This is all from my hand surgeon, but can be easily verified. Us males tend to not take this stuff serious until something happens, then we become annoying nags always warning people about safety. OK, well maybe that's just me...

If you want to test bare handed, I recommend heavily taping the majority of the blade.

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:30 pm

The tendons on the inner part of your finger actually go up from your fingers and into your forearm. Once severed, they start retracting up the finger, up the hand, then up the arm. Repairs are generally more difficult than the outer tendons and generally have a lower success rate. This is all from my hand surgeon, but can be easily verified. Us males tend to not take this stuff serious until something happens, then we become annoying nags always warning people about safety. OK, well maybe that's just me...

If you want to test bare handed, I recommend heavily taping the majority of the blade.

Again, I really, really appreciate your concern and certainly wise advice!!!
And yes, for me an injury like you describe would be pretty catastrophic, given that I love to climb, play the guitar, throw knives and so on!

I´ll be careful, I promise!!

But as said: I´ve stabbed the Chap full force into stuff with certainly less give than a car door [EDIT: THIS might be wrong - in a way hard wood has maybe/probably still MORE "give" than a car door, we´ll see!), not just once, just for proving my impression to myself that it is actually a pretty good (small!) hard use knife (and for me it IS). I don´t want to sound arrogant at all, but I think I know what I am doing (a bit like I can do some Balisong tricks on MY (not high) level, while total beginners would probably hurt themselves)

Taping "the majority of the blade" would certainly water the results down, and I want to further test the capabilities of the Chap 100% "real".

I am a bit worried though that I could motivate readers of this thread to do this too: D.O.N.`T if you are not absolutely 100% sure what you are doing!!

I can't help but think of one of my much loved Dad's mantras if I tried something like this. "I thought you were smarter than that". Well, that was one of the few things he was often wrong about. I'm sure it isn't good idea, but hey, sometimes you just have to test.

Just find yourself an early 2000s Saturn if there are any left in your country, all the body panels except the rear fenders and roof were made of plastic. You'll still look cool doing it

No gloves sounds like an invitation for complacency and a safety story on video during a job orientation.

Evil D wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:03 pm

Just find yourself an early 2000s Saturn if there are any left in your country, all the body panels except the rear fenders and roof were made of plastic. You'll still look cool doing it

Too funny dude, I was going to tell Gernot to ask you for any easy recommendations hahah!

I had a 91 with the bigger engine. I can't remember if they called it SL1 or SL2. It was no frills, but honestly, one of the best cars I've had. I beat it senseless until over 250k miles. Of course they got ruined, but that's another story.
Sorry, OT, but yeah, plastic. I'm sure Warty wants metal though.

Please don't do it. Nothing to prove here.

1) Why don't they make thinner knives?
2) I would like to stab through a car door with a thin knife.
3) Why don't they make thinner knives?

Evil D wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:39 am

I know I'm not the only guy who grew up with Case and Buck knives and snapped blades off. Back before multitools it was way more of an issue, because your knife may have been the only tool you had on you and whatever the task was it was going to get done one way or another. These days if you're actually at work or something and need to pry or need a screwdriver there's no reason to not carry a multitool, there are so many options that everyone can find one that suits their needs and then your knife can be just a cutting tool. I only ever worry about how aggressive I get when cutting stuff because even that does tend to lean towards hard use at times and if I actually used the right tool for the job every time I'd need to carry a tool chest on my back.

I messed up 2 Schrade 34OT medium stockmans as a kid. Same mistake on both - using the sheepfoots blade as a prybar/screwdriver.

cabfrank wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:59 pm

I can't help but think of one of my much loved Dad's mantras if I tried something like this. "I thought you were smarter than that". Well, that was one of the few things he was often wrong about. I'm sure it isn't good idea, but hey, sometimes you just have to test.

skeeg11 wrote:Please don't do it. Nothing to prove here.

TkoK83Spy wrote: No gloves sounds like an invitation for complacency and a safety story on video during a job orientation.

Folks, thanks again, but I don´t want to get this so much attention and please just let me do my thing.

In a way you make it sound as if I´d plan to do something completely crazy, never done before by me or anyone.
Again, look at Shawns vid: Some stabs are full force, in very hard matter, bare handed, no prob. He just knows what he is doing.

I too know what I am doing, trust me! I´ve stabbed folders including the Chap bare handed into matter multiple times where the knife was stopped almost immediately, I KNOW how firm I must and can hold the handle, and how well or not the Chap locks my hand in.
I´ve also been using, testing and comparing knives for many years, this is nothing new to me and I KNOW how to approach it.

Would gloves enhance safety technically?
Sure, but they also would when just closing a folder one handed or whatever, but are just not necessary if one knows what they are doing and hinder me to test how the Chap feels in hand while doing whatever task.

This is no different than I can climb 5.9 free solo, while non climbers would fall to their death just as I would if I tried what Alex Honnold does...
Or my previous example of Balisong tricks: I can do those safely on my level, others would hurt themselves and I would if I´d go beyond my level
One million examples here: If one has felled 1000 trees already and knows a thing or two about it: No prob.
A "tree felling newb" should not go for a big tree though without any experience

/ @Skeeg11: I don´t want and have to prove anything! I am just honestly interested in what the Chap can take - and the "car door story" inspired me spontaously. I don´t know if potentially the tip will snap or even the blade will break, but I am pretty sure...NOT

the humanity...
the humanity...

(May good fortune smile upon your endeavor!)

TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:14 pm

Evil D wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:03 pm

Just find yourself an early 2000s Saturn if there are any left in your country, all the body panels except the rear fenders and roof were made of plastic. You'll still look cool doing it

Too funny dude, I was going to tell Gernot to ask you for any easy recommendations hahah!

I cut car bumper covers almost daily, and some of them cut easier than others. They're all made from some kind of urethane or another, but they differ in thickness and how they're reinforced and then you run into plastic braces and such and I sometimes need to cut those too. Suffice to say there is a lower end limit to how thin I'd feel safe doing these cuts.

It should also be mentioned that there is a relationship between how much force you have to apply to a cut, and how efficient the blade is at slicing. If edge and blade geometry is optimized for the task you'll put less force into the cut and that reduces damage to the knife and your edge. Common sense comes when you take that ratio far to the slicing end of the spectrum and then start making hard twisting cuts. Every situation requires a minimum level of strength and I think the hard use folder mentality is preparing for the highest strength need at the sacrifice of performance for all of the lower strength needs. The flip side of that is carrying the super thin slicer and then finding yourself in the hard use situation and you break a blade. This is probably not an issue for the vast majority of real EDC tasks but if you're in a work environment you need to be realistic and play it safe.

Evil D wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:16 am

TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:14 pm

Evil D wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:03 pm

Just find yourself an early 2000s Saturn if there are any left in your country, all the body panels except the rear fenders and roof were made of plastic. You'll still look cool doing it

Too funny dude, I was going to tell Gernot to ask you for any easy recommendations hahah!

I cut car bumper covers almost daily, and some of them cut easier than others. They're all made from some kind of urethane or another, but they differ in thickness and how they're reinforced and then you run into plastic braces and such and I sometimes need to cut those too. Suffice to say there is a lower end limit to how thin I'd feel safe doing these cuts.

It should also be mentioned that there is a relationship between how much force you have to apply to a cut, and how efficient the blade is at slicing. If edge and blade geometry is optimized for the task you'll put less force into the cut and that reduces damage to the knife and your edge. Common sense comes when you take that ratio far to the slicing end of the spectrum and then start making hard twisting cuts. Every situation requires a minimum level of strength and I think the hard use folder mentality is preparing for the highest strength need at the sacrifice of performance for all of the lower strength needs. The flip side of that is carrying the super thin slicer and then finding yourself in the hard use situation and you break a blade. This is probably not an issue for the vast majority of real EDC tasks but if you're in a work environment you need to be realistic and play it safe.

Good point,
... and for me one of the aspects showing that "what is a "hard use" small (!) folder (!)" is partly a matter of perspective, model X can be just that for person A, but not for person B (again, as one example: For Shawn in his vid it sounds almost like the rather thin Police K390 blade is kind of overbuilt for a CUTTING tool)

For me a thinner blade generally makes cutting (and probably also stabbing sometimes) easier, so one needs to apply less force with a thinner blade in "hard use" - puts less stress on the blade, and makes work easier.
As long as the blade is still thick enough and shaped in a way that it can take "regular" folder hard use: A knife with such a blade might very well be the "best" hard use folder for some or many, and not a superthick bladed one.

This is also about what I always mean when saying that seeing the broader picture and thinking out of the box might pay off.

(PS: I know that what I said above does not completely reflect what you said! The point that there will be a "too thin" for "hard use" is also true of course).

Cutting is just moving a wedge through material. It's similar to aerodynamics, there is an ideal cross section thickness and shape that's going to move through material better or worse. A razor blade is going to slice better than any pocket knife but it won't survive much twisting during the cut. A lot of cuts can be made just fine with a very thin blade if the cut is straight through the material, it's lateral force that starts to make problems.