Spyderco Native Chief Lightweight Observations

[vivi]

I was an early adopter of the Native Chief, buying up most of the sprints. 4V, M4, M4 DLC, Rex 45, etc.



I consider it one of the best in house Spyderco designs. It has exceptional ergonomics, excellent geometry, and the cutting edge of a Military while folding up to be as compact as an Endura. It's a very well engineered folding knife.

When they announced salt versions of it, I was very enthusiastic about that upcoming model. I like the overall design better than the Pacific Salt. The handle shape and lack of thumb ramp work better for my grip.

Here is the Chief LW compared to both generations of Pacific Salts:



Here are in hand photos of both the Chief and Pacific 1:










Unfortunately when the Chief Salt finally hit the market, they were just a hair under $200, which is more than I want to pay for a linerless FRN pocket knife. More on this at the end.

So, I ordered the version I had previously skipped out on while waiting for the salt version, the BD1N DLC run. I paid about $120 shipped, which was only possible due to a sale price.

It's not a salt, but in my experience DLC stainless steels are close enough to one for me to carry one 365 days a year without the corrosion concerns I have with tools steels or even uncoated stainless steels. Especially on linerless models like the Native Chief.

Now, the very first thing I noticed with my Lightweight Chief was the absurdly terrible feeling action. Whoever tuned the pivot at the factory had it set so tight I could barely open it one handed, and there was zero closing bias from the lockback. Not a good first impression.

Here's a video of how it operated out of the box: https://streamff.com/v/d309fb15

Here's a second showing me trying to close it one handed: https://streamff.com/v/488941bd

Now, something I noticed while adjusting the pivot is the same issue I ran into with the LC200N Pacific Salt.



I can choose to have smooth opening action, or I can choose to have zero side to side play.

I can't have both.

Try as I might to dial it in perfectly, using the finest adjustments possible by hand, the opening action becomes noticeably impacted by tightening the pivot to the point side to side play is eliminated. There simply is no goldilocks zone where opening and closing feels unhindered but the knife exhibits no play.

Here's another video after adjusting the pivot more sensibly: https://streamff.com/v/1894813c

I chose to have zero side to side play and slightly stiffer action. Not as smooth opening as my G10 Chiefs or Pacific Salts, but hopefully after breaking it in it will improve.

Unfortunately, fixing the pivot didn't fix the poor centering:



All my G10 versions show superior centering.

To date, my most used Chief to date has been the M4 DLC model.



I did have two concerns going into any lightweight version of the Chief, compared to these G10 runs.

First, the clip. If you take a look at my thread from 2019 on the Police 4 Lightweight, you'll see I pointed out the clip contact pad on the handle was too short to work well with tip up carry. This seems to be an issue with some longer lightweight Spydercos.

The Chief is smoother going into and out of the pocket than the Police LW, but definitely not as smooth as either generation Pacific Salt, or my G10 Chiefs.

Video of the Chief LW going in and out of my pocket: https://streamff.com/v/3fa989d3

Video of the Pacific Salt 1 & 2 going in and out of my pocket: https://streamff.com/v/20ac496a

Now, in these videos I'm not using my usual technique. If I do that, things get even worse. Let's take a look: https://streamff.com/v/c17131e0

Yeah, not so great.

Again, I ask Spyderco, please extend the smooth contact pad a little further on larger lightweight models. The action of clipping and unclipping them feels worse than Delicas and Enduras. This Chief LW is better than the Police 4 in this respect, but not as smooth as a brand new Pacific Salt.



My second concern on the LW vs G10 versions was the contouring.

Now, I mod all my G10 Chiefs. I take them apart and sand the edges of the scales, because they come very squared off from the factory. On most models the squared off feeling edges don't bother me, but for some reason they hindered my comfort from the very first Chief I owned, the Rex 45.

Here are some close up photos of my hand contoured scales for reference - viewtopic.php?p=1575620#p1575620

So, I was a bit concerned with the Lightweight having the same issue.

Let's take a look at the LW next to my hand sanded M4 DLC G10 model and compare their contouring:











I am pleased to report I give the out of box contouring a passing grade.

It does feel a little more squared and blocky in my hand VS my modded G10 Chiefs, but not so bad I feel like I need to sand the scales.

Now let's discuss weight.

I weighed four knives with a postal scale, here are their weights:

G10 M4 DLC Chief - 4.12oz
FRN Chief LW - 3.02oz
Pacific Salt 1 with the older square clip - 2.99oz
Pacific Salt 2 H1 SE reprofiled to 15 degrees - 2.76oz

So, not quite as light as H1 Pacific Salts from either generation, and half an ounce heavier than Pacific Salts in FFG LC200N, but this should satisfy anyone looking for a large, ultra light knife. It feels feather light.

Another thing I was curious about was the backspacer design.

On all of my DLC sprint Native Chiefs, the scales and backspacers are not flush. It's kind of annoying seeing it consistently happen across ~8 different Chiefs, as these are $150-200 pocket knives we're talking about.

Lets compare:





There's a tiny little gap between the two scales, but things are more flush in general than on my G10 versions. FYI, the G10 fit and finish looked like that prior to dying and contouring the scales.

Something else I noticed, which was difficult to photograph at the base of the blades, is the Chief LW actually has a slightly thinner blade than the G10 version. You can see the difference in the tips:



The edge came shaving sharp, as expected:



The geometry on the Chief is almost unparalleled in the modern single blade locking folder market. There is a noticeable difference in the ease with which it cuts through cardboard compared to almost every other locking folder on the market. This knife was designed to cut - not pry - and it shows.

One little nitpick - I would like to see Spydercos fully sharpened, instead of leaving the first couple of MM dull.


(Hand sharpened G10 Chief VS factory edged Chief LW)

Though, I do find the current style of edges far, far preferable to companies adding a sharpening notch. I cannot express how stupid I think sharpening notches are.

Now let's talk about the lock rock.

Let me be clear, I have never had any safety issues with Native Chief locks, or any Spyderco lockback for that matter.

But I have handled over 500 Spyderco lockbacks produced between the 1990's to the 2020's, and I have never, ever handled one with zero vertical play.

The only reason I point this out is because there have been countless times on the forum others have claimed the opposite. To be honest, I simply don't think others are checking as thoroughly as I am.

Every single one, from my C95 sprint, all my G10 Chiefs, all my Pacific Salt 1's and 2's, all my Police folders, all my Enduras, to my first Spyderco - a Delica 4, had some vertical play.


Golden, CO produced lockbacks in particular are highly lauded here for their high tolerances. But again, every C95 I've owned, all the old Native 1's I owned, to this Chief - all these Golden models have vertical play too.

My test is simple.


Test 1 - Open the knife, grip the handle with my right hand, pinch behind the tip with my thumb and index finger on my left hand, move the blade up and down while holding the handle steady.

If the knife passes, I go on to test #2.

Test 2 - Open the knife, grip the handle in a pinch grip so I'm not blocking the lock bar, press the cutting edge into a cutting board near the tip with about 10lbs of force, release the pressure, then repeat a few times.

Nothing extreme or abusive.

No Spyderco lockback can pass this test without showing vertical play - at least that I've handled.

This knife is no different. It fails both tests easily.

It has less lock rock than my G10 models, but it also takes much, much less force to show the vertical play. It shows vertical play slicing open an envelope even. About 1-2 lbs of force tops.

I used to not care so much. For years Spyderco were the only folders I bought, and the lockbacks I owned prior to getting into Spyderco - mostly Buck 110's and a 112, showed the same issue.

These days I've branched out a bit. After buying several $30-90 triad lock folders with zero play, even after intentionally abusing them to stress the locks - I find it more difficult to accept the idea of a $100-200 Spyderco having blade play right out of the box.

Especially when they talk about the years of engineering that have gone into this lock in the pamphlet. Why can a $30 triad lock knife show zero play after this type of abuse but a $200 Spyderco lockback has play when it's brand new?

I'm now at the point where the lock rock does bother me, and I want to see Spyderco lockbacks made without any play, period. If that means making them power locks, so be it.

One interesting detail is the LW uses slightly different hardware than the G10 versions:



The scales are built much like the Stretch XL and Pacific Salt 2. They aren't solid slabs like the Pacific Salt 1:





Lastly balance is perfect for someone like me who rarely chokes up:



Edit: Adding this stop pin photo to the original post.

This is extremely nitpicky, but the stop pin sticks out a few MM on the show side, and is flush on the back side.



Again, very nitpicky, but with a regular retail price of $170 or so, I expect these little details to be accounted for.



---------------------------------

Now, this model gives me mixed feelings.

The Chief, like I said at the beginning, is one of my favorite Spyderco designs. It really is something special.

But waiting all this time for the Chief Salt, only to get sticker shock at the $200 street price, I have to be perfectly frank:

This does not feel like a $200 knife to me.

I do not plan to ever pay $200 for a Chief LW in any steel, even magnacut.

It has blade play in every direction unless I tighten the pivot to the point the action is impeded and feels rough.

It has poor centering.

It's made by the company that put pocket clips on knives, but gets hung up on the scale texture when I draw it because they make the clip contact pad too short.

The contouring, while better than the G10 version, is a far cry from the contouring many $20-50 folders on the market feature. It feels too square and blocky VS competitors. This is more understandable on G10 knives due to machining costs, but not on injection molded scales.

The value proposition isn't fun to think about. This folder retails for $170 and you get FRN and BD1N. For $88 I can buy a competitors knife that's G10 and S35VN - nearly half the price. For $35 I can get a 4" blade lockback with zero blade play. Neither made in China.

I've said it many times before - I've been collecting knives since about 1991, and in that time I have always held by a price rule - $200 or less for each individual knife.

Looking at the price trends, I simply have to choose whether to keep adhering to that rule and stop buying Spydercos at retail price, or whether to change my rule.

I don't like being put in that position.

Also, as prices go up, I am going to be more critical of the flaws I mentioned in this review. I will nitpick centering, lock rock and those 2mm of unsharpened edge more as the prices rise.

If you want to charge me $170-200 for a few ounces of FRN and a budget steel, my standards are going to be higher than when I payed $60-80 for new Pacific Salts, or $100 for a Manix XL, or $125 for a Military or Police.

I used to never even look at folders from other companies, and definitely never carried them. But these days competitors folders are not only finding their way into my pockets - I'm carrying them more frequently than Spydercos.

I dunno.

I'm going to carry and use this knife and I expect to really like it. But I can't help but shake that feeling that I may never open up another box with a brand new Spyderco folder in it.

Like having that final visit with a friend before they move hundreds of miles away - I have no idea what the future will hold.

[zhyla]

I was curious if you would spot the same issues I did. I think I made a thread with my observations. A lot to unpack in this massive writeup but I’ll mention a couple things:

1. The key to zeroing out the horizontal play but keeping reasonable action is the middle screw. If that is super tight it torques the scales and makes the blade bind. I think it’s a design defect and the assemblers are just applying the torque wrench as instructed. Tighten the pivot, loosen that middle screw.

2. A long aftermarket clip solved the landing pad issue. But this should have never gone to production this way.

I keep my Native Chief LW in its box in a drawer. I think it’s best to just sell it at some point.

[RugerNurse]

Dang. I was thinking of getting one. Might just do a pacific salt

[Mushroom]

Great write up, very in depth.

Just a couple thoughts about the clip concerns you presented -

I’m guessing Spyderco has specific reasoning for the position and size of the flat pads on their FRN scales. Which could be a number of things but it seems like there are examples where it’s positioned to prioritize aesthetic balance and other cases where assuring the clip lands on the flat pad is the priority. In some cases they can conveniently do both. I just think there is more consideration to their positioning than it might seem at first glance.

Also not for nothing but the large oval shape on the Native Chief does seem like it accommodates both to a certain degree. I don’t have a physical example to verify at the moment but the flat oval pad does appear to extend underneath where the clip is landing. (Not entirely but it’s not entirely bidirectional texture underneath either) It does appear to be a bit of a compromise though and leans a little more towards the aesthetic side due to the body screw just above the flat oval pad.

At this point where they’ve already made so many FRN Native Chief scales with the flat pad the way it is, I think the easiest solution might be to adjust the size of the clip they include on the Chief. I would guess it’s more cost effective to change the size of the clips being made going forward than it would be to change the molds to fit the current clips.

[phaust]

They need a longer clip for the Salt PM2, so making a new, longer clip would make sense from that perspective as well.

[zhyla]

Also not for nothing but the large oval shape on the Native Chief does seem like it accommodates both to a certain degree.

As far as I’m aware every forum member that has posted about this knife has reported the same problem. It doesn’t work.

[zhyla]

Something else I noticed, which was difficult to photograph at the base of the blades, is the Chief LW actually has a slightly thinner blade than the G10 version. You can see the difference in the tips:

Be careful with that tip. Mine either chipped a tiny bit opening a box or it came from the factory chipped out. It's a very, very chip that is hard to see. So it was probably the latter. But this is clearly an enthusiast blade, extremely thin and weak at the tip. That's great -- but it's very odd on a Native family knife.

[dsvirsky]

Also not for nothing but the large oval shape on the Native Chief does seem like it accommodates both to a certain degree.

As far as I’m aware every forum member that has posted about this knife has reported the same problem. It doesn’t work.

Works just fine, as far as I'm concerned, even on sweat pants material. So, not a problem from my perspective.

[cabfrank]

I had all the same issues: rough opening/action, clip too short and very slight chip at the tip. This reminds me that in the process of getting the pivot tightness balanced well, I had a pivot screw back out and get lost, which has never happened to me before. I've been waiting for a replacement, and thus haven't been able to use the knife for six or seven weeks now. I guess I need to make a follow up phone call today.

[Naperville]

"I've been collecting knives since about 1991, and in that time I have always held by a price rule - $200 or less for each individual knife."



Good luck with that plan after 33 years of inflation and improvements to manufacturing and raw materials.

I don't think you care about being put on full blast. My comments are not that in any case, and I am not name calling.

I own most of the Spyderco Native Chiefs, some I own 2, 3, and 4 copies of each model. Knid of dragging my feet on the lessor steels. I'll probably own 3+ of each Magnacut model.

$200 seems like a lot of money doesn't it? BUT IT ISN'T ANYMORE IS IT? I can get 1.5 to 2 full plastic bags of groceries for $200US. Your comments are nonsense in this respect.

I do not look at any of my knives as carefully or critically as most people, but I do agree or at least want the very best for my money. Look at what you get from other manufacturers for $200. Most of the knives that I want are under $600, but almost all of them except Spyderco are over $450.

With self defense in mind and worried about a failed open or a dropped knife, I open almost all of them with two hands. I can use my forearms and elbows to protect the knife until it is open and ready to be used.

I've owned at least $20,000 in knives. Never adjusted the pivot on any one of them. Centering from every manufacturer has been passable, most perfect.

I do not care about knife weight, never did. A heavier knife is usually a more robust better made knife.

If Spyderco makes all of the changes you desire, the Spyderco Native Chief knives will all be around $275+. But that would not slow me down. I'll keep buying whatever and whenever I can. A $30-90 knife would use steel I would not touch with a 10ft pole.

[Spyderwebs]

The last round of price hikes broke me too.

Current MAP puts the price of many flagship knives in the same ballpark as many older and rarer models. A PM2 or Chief is the same price as a JD Smith. Or PM2 Salt is pretty close in price to a REC PM2. I picked up a Centofante 4 for less than all but the most basic models now.

All examples where I would like the Magnacut Chief but honestly the JD Smith, REC PM2, and C4, and other "Golden Era" models are more desirable than new models at MAP.

So I'm still collecting Spyderco's, but I wont be buying many (or any) brand new because the value proposition isn't there like it was 2-4 years ago, for all the reasons you outline here.

[Mushroom]

Also not for nothing but the large oval shape on the Native Chief does seem like it accommodates both to a certain degree.

It doesn’t work.

What do you mean by “doesn’t work?”

It can’t be that the clip doesn’t extend over the flat oval pad at all - Because it does.

Also, context is important. If you didn’t just cherry pick one sentence from my post, you would have also quoted me noting how it looks like a compromise. It’s not perfect and I wasn’t disagreeing with anyone’s opinion. If someone doesn’t like the clip the way it is, that’s fine, it makes no difference to me but the fact remains that the clip does, at least partially, land on the oval pad.

Lastly, adjusting the clip tension is about as easy as removing it. That is a readily available solution to the clip not being “smooth” when removing it and putting it back in pocket.

“Doesn’t work” is a far cry from “being less smooth than other knives.”

[cabfrank]

The clip needs to be slightly longer. That would solve the problem.

[abbazaba]

Mine arrived today with the same issues. Might take it apart and try to remedy the action/centering.

Somehow feels sturdier than the Stretch2 XL FRN

[vivi]

The clip needs to be slightly longer. That would solve the problem.

Agreed.

Making new molds is obviously impractical. But the issue could be remedied with longer clips for knives like this and the Police Lightweight.

Mine arrived today with the same issues. Might take it apart and try to remedy the action/centering.

Somehow feels sturdier than the Stretch2 XL FRN

Agreed. The Chief LW feels a little more rigid in the handle than the Stretch XL Salt.

Both are folders I really expected to like, and honestly thought they'd replace my Pacific Salts.

But after sleeping on it, I'm returning my Chief LW and sticking to my Pacific Salt 1's for my lightweight folder of choice.

"I've been collecting knives since about 1991, and in that time I have always held by a price rule - $200 or less for each individual knife."



Good luck with that plan after 33 years of inflation and improvements to manufacturing and raw materials.

I don't think you care about being put on full blast. My comments are not that in any case, and I am not name calling.

I own most of the Spyderco Native Chiefs, some I own 2, 3, and 4 copies of each model. Knid of dragging my feet on the lessor steels. I'll probably own 3+ of each Magnacut model.

$200 seems like a lot of money doesn't it? BUT IT ISN'T ANYMORE IS IT? I can get 1.5 to 2 full plastic bags of groceries for $200US. Your comments are nonsense in this respect.

I do not look at any of my knives as carefully or critically as most people, but I do agree or at least want the very best for my money. Look at what you get from other manufacturers for $200. Most of the knives that I want are under $600, but almost all of them except Spyderco are over $450.

With self defense in mind and worried about a failed open or a dropped knife, I open almost all of them with two hands. I can use my forearms and elbows to protect the knife until it is open and ready to be used.

I've owned at least $20,000 in knives. Never adjusted the pivot on any one of them. Centering from every manufacturer has been passable, most perfect.

I do not care about knife weight, never did. A heavier knife is usually a more robust better made knife.

If Spyderco makes all of the changes you desire, the Spyderco Native Chief knives will all be around $275+. But that would not slow me down. I'll keep buying whatever and whenever I can. A $30-90 knife would use steel I would not touch with a 10ft pole.

Respectfully, I do not think you understand knife steels as well as you seem to think.

You carry knives for self defense. A knife used for self defense is best designed with a steel built for toughness. Yet you often choose steels built for edge retention when slicing abrasive materials rather than toughness optimized steels. The steels you often purchase are more likely to chip than a lot of budget steels like 1095 and 420 series.

Either way, let's take a look at some knives I've purchased in the $30-90 range, strictly within the 2020's.

- 3V 5" fixed blade made in taiwan for $45
- 3V 6" fixed blade made in taiwan for $80
- A2 @ 61rc 3" fixed blade made in USA for $75
- S35VN folder made in Taiwan for $88
- White #1 6" petty from japan for $75
- VG10 Damascus petty 5.5" from japan for $65
- SK5 5-7" fixed blades from taiwan for $24-32
- 1055 machetes from south africa 10-21" for $15-35
- BD1 4" folder from taiwan for $55
- AUS10 4"-5.5" folders from taiwan for $40-55
- 420HC Leathermans from USA for $30-80


3V would be an ideal steel for dynamic impacts against bone I would imagine. What makes that steel unsuitable for you?

420HC is much tougher than say, S90V or K390 if I remember correctly. Wouldn't that be more optimized for how you use your knives?

A2 is similar to a non CPM cruwear. It's very tough while offering better edge retention than 1095.

1055 is extremely tough. It's used in machetes and axes. I don't know of many S90V machetes?

Regardless, I think guns and running shoes are better than knives for self defense, so I've never understood your mind set here.

[zhyla]

What do you mean by “doesn’t work?”

It can’t be that the clip doesn’t extend over the flat oval pad at all - Because it does.

It looks like it's on the pad, but you need more overlap or pocket fabric snags, making it a very frustrating knife to carry. I see one response in this thread from someone who seems to think it works ok. I'm very curious about how it's working for them.

It's not about balancing the aesthetic -- of course the logo goes in the center -- it's that they cheaped out and didn't make a matching clip. Or -- worse -- didn't notice the problem in the design phase.

Lastly, adjusting the clip tension is about as easy as removing it. That is a readily available solution to the clip not being “smooth” when removing it and putting it back in pocket.

This approach assumes the clip lands inside the landing pad on a good design. When the fabric is bunching up on the scale texture it means the clip will slide out easily and be difficult to pocket. Not a great option IMO.

“Doesn’t work” is a far cry from “being less smooth than other knives.”

Obviously some people are pickier than others. Yes I can get this knife into my pocket. Am I willing to shred my pockets to carry this knife? Am I willing fight it every time? Not really.

[Mushroom]

What do you mean by “doesn’t work?”

It can’t be that the clip doesn’t extend over the flat oval pad at all - Because it does.

It looks like it's on the pad, but you need more overlap or pocket fabric snags, making it a very frustrating knife to carry. I see one response in this thread from someone who seems to think it works ok. I'm very curious about how it's working for them.

It's on the pad. So, if I'm understanding you right, by "doesn't work" you actually meant that you personally find it to be a frustrating knife to carry. Gotcha.

It's not about balancing the aesthetic -- of course the logo goes in the center -- it's that they cheaped out and didn't make a matching clip. Or -- worse -- didn't notice the problem in the design phase.

Oh, right I must have forgot that you were a part of making those decisions... You're so confident yet just as ignorant towards why those decisions were made as the rest of us. "It's not about balancing aesthetic" - Yeah ok... "of course the logo goes in the center" - but I thought it wasn't about balancing aesthetics... Also, FYI - The logo is not "of course" always centered but I know you already know that.

At least you agree with me that the clip should be longer, so that's good.

Lastly, adjusting the clip tension is about as easy as removing it. That is a readily available solution to the clip not being “smooth” when removing it and putting it back in pocket.

This approach assumes the clip lands inside the landing pad on a good design. When the fabric is bunching up on the scale texture it means the clip will slide out easily and be difficult to pocket. Not a great option IMO.

Well technically the flat pad location would be irrelevant with this approach. This approach could actually negate the scale texture entirely depending on how much the tension is adjusted. It's not a perfect option but whether you think it's a great one or not, it is still an option. A free one too! (For what it's worth, Sal also recommends this approach on occasion. He has even stated that he loosens the tension on his own knives pocket clips.)

“Doesn’t work” is a far cry from “being less smooth than other knives.”

Obviously some people are pickier than others. Yes I can get this knife into my pocket. Am I willing to shred my pockets to carry this knife? Am I willing fight it every time? Not really.

If you think FRN tearing up your pockets is bad, stay away from G10 knives. You won't like what happens to your pockets with peel ply G10.

[zhyla]

It's on the pad. So, if I'm understanding you right, by "doesn't work" you actually meant that you personally find it to be a frustrating knife to carry. Gotcha.

Ok at this point dude I think you’re just being a D. A lot of us have raised this issue. It’s a problem. I’m just going to leave it at that.

[vivi]

Yep. The clip issue can be improved on large lightweight folders from Spyderco.

We can debate how big of an issue it is - but there is no debate that it is an issue.

Again, as price goes up, so do my standards. $40 folder? Whatever, I'll bust out some sand paper for the scales and bend the clip a bit in a vice. If I bought a $200 Magnacut Chief and had the same experience? Wouldn't be a happy camper.

It's weird. Spyderco knows to put smooth contact areas on their folders. They're aware it makes a difference. But for some reason they're choosing not to extend it to the optimal length, or use longer clips, on models like this and the Police LW.

I don't like bending Spyderco clips to reduce tension. I've never had one feel too tight. I have had them feel looser than I like. I'm quite active and move around a lot, and I like a secure clip. But I also like a smooth draw.

Bending the clip to reduce tension simply does not address the core issue. Extending the clip contact pad or lengthening clips does.

[JBoone]

$200 in Jan 1995 is $420 in sept 2024 per the CPI calculator online. I believe if anything this is understated as it does not include food and energy.

Having said that there is nothing wrong with setting a limit and staying under it. Everyone has their own limits but it is helpful to talk in inflation adjusted dollars.

Again, not arguing that you should spend more than your limit but $200 in mid 90s was a lot of money for a knife