How about a PM60 Mule?

[sal]

Hi,

We don't use any programs on steel to predict. We'll leave that to Larrin. Our findings mostly agree with his, but sometimes they don't. We have our lab for testing, which we're always doing.

I'm semi-retired, so I work on R&D, design and some forums. I don't have anything to do with hiring or discharging, and I don't want to. 45 years doing that was plenty.

As far as a PM60 Mule goes, I'll watch the thread and see what the regular visitors think, and see the interest..

sal

[Steveng]

I am in for one, and a REX121 if released

[VeraX_Knives]

Hi,

We don't use any programs on steel to predict. We'll leave that to Larrin. Our findings mostly agree with his, but sometimes they don't. We have our lab for testing, which we're always doing.

I'm semi-retired, so I work on R&D, design and some forums. I don't have anything to do with hiring or discharging, and I don't want to. 45 years doing that was plenty.

As far as a PM60 Mule goes, I'll watch the thread and see what the regular visitors think, and see the interest..

sal

Larrin Thomas has never once admitted to be wrong about something because of the internet and his 'reputation'. Science is science. PM60 isn't going to sell if you want to do a failsafe thing such as ZTA, mpl-1 is it not m398 - carbide makeup is .. I'd have to look at m398 chemistry but probably just as bad or worse. It's a 46% carbide alloy, if we're playing that game also.

Do I have a self interest in you guys doing MPL1? Uh. Not really cause I'd need the material in the raw - I'm almost certain that you wouldn't sell "direct to consumer" in that.. distributor capacity even if our legal teams got a letter of intent from one another. Obviously mines a bit smaller hahaha. IDK Mike told me to come here and give my honest opinion on what would be the.. harder but safer way? Wording variations exist. So I did and wasn't the only one. I also think that PM60 would sell with that chemistry it.. to me I have to admit looks better than MPL-1 but. I'd modify MPL-1. So ya just my pure .02 on I guess what I would advise to myself.

Sal, I highly respect you sir however I know you do forums and I'm sure other things over computers? But if we're talking about software that Larrin has - he's using it from a university or company. I'm not. I'm an internet nerd that has the most updated and complete programs, which cost tens of thousands of dollars a piece, and are not just.. run through IDA Pro to crack. They have rather (not extreme but) sophisticated security systems because of their.. value I suppose. Getting the latest version of databases and whatnot costs money for them... Not me. I'm in no way whatsoever uh. Bragging about that as I just noticed it could sound like, at all. I'm just literally trying to give you a very small piece of information that I wasn't sure if you were aware of. And oh yes yes, said updates make a huge difference in reliability. That's honestly the only reason why I asked. And Mike made me look like some **** bag that I can't stand but. Ya I guess I got a sheet of paper.

[VeraX_Knives]

I am in for one, and a REX121 if released

I can send you a piece, hardened to your specs if you want to play around with it. It's not that fun, but I don't know what you have or.. want etc just an offer and yes it's paid for so shipping costs only. I got rid of most of it but I got a thick piece left.

[TomAiello]

I'd love to try a PM60 Mule. I'm tempted by the Kunwu, but not sure I really want to cough up that much for a Chinese knife at this point.

[Steeltoez83]

I was kinda bummed rext15 was chosen over rex66 bcuz the bump in cobalt I thought could bring something unique to the table. The chemistry even to the untrained eye appears a little off balance in pm60 to me. So I'd most likely pass on this one if it ever gets made.

[vanka]

I was kinda bummed rext15 was chosen over rex66 bcuz the bump in cobalt I thought could bring something unique to the table. The chemistry even to the untrained eye appears a little off balance in pm60 to me. So I'd most likely pass on this one if it ever gets made.

I believe one of the main reasons why we see one steel and pass on the others is what the foundries are willing to produce. Even if there's significant inferest if the foundry says no it's end of the story. I believe that's the reason why we got Z-max instead of Rex - 86. Both are completely identical but I think Rex-86 exists only on paper.

[VeraX_Knives]

I was kinda bummed rext15 was chosen over rex66 bcuz the bump in cobalt I thought could bring something unique to the table. The chemistry even to the untrained eye appears a little off balance in pm60 to me. So I'd most likely pass on this one if it ever gets made.

I believe one of the main reasons why we see one steel and pass on the others is what the foundries are willing to produce. Even if there's significant inferest if the foundry says no it's end of the story. I believe that's the reason why we got Z-max instead of Rex - 86. Both are completely identical but I think Rex-86 exists only on paper.

You're incorrect. Just saying. Zapp is licensed to produce cpm rex 86 as z max. Ask me how I know

Let's think about this one. A company exists to produce a product. If I call that company and ask them to change some of that recipe to suit my taste buds - it's going to be more geared towards what I want. If you want something made, and why the **** you would want cobalt of all things is. Odd?. They'll make it. It just costs money, and that's where I would say the rub lies. Most companies that make these types of alloys do it all in one big melt because they are not used very often. However that doesn't mean anything as long as you have money. That's the reason life works unfortunately. Think about it.

[Steeltoez83]

Better toughness at higher obtainable hardness is what I've read. When I read Dr Larrins first book, the images of rex66 stood out to me. Traits of high front end sharpness might carry over to rex66 from its T15 bretheren too. After testing rex45 and rex 76 extensively I believe rex66 has potential. Just like how I believe B60 aka boron suboxide also has potential but in a different platform. Spyderco will do their due diligence, and properly research whatever avenues they wish to explore. Someone saw potential in pm60, Sal saw potential in pm60, and now it's a journey to see if the juice is worth the squeeze. We are extremely fortunate to have these interactions that we do with spyderco.

[VeraX_Knives]

Better toughness at higher obtainable hardness is what I've read. When I read Dr Larrins first book, the images of rex66 stood out to me. Traits of high front end sharpness might carry over to rex66 from its T15 bretheren too. After testing rex45 and rex 76 extensively I believe rex66 has potential. Just like how I believe B60 aka boron suboxide also has potential but in a different platform. Spyderco will do their due diligence, and properly research whatever avenues they wish to explore. Someone saw potential in pm60, Sal saw potential in pm60, and now it's a journey to see if the juice is worth the squeeze. We are extremely fortunate to have these interactions that we do with spyderco.

Oh definitely it's exactly what I would do if I was running the company. And well, I'm not going to try and sound like some people who are educated so I'm going to try and give you the basics that is understandable. Why did I say what I did about cobalt? Well. It really doesn't add toughness as much as you may think. Actually, a small (idk uh, let's say 3-5%) addition of chromium, known by many to be brittle, actually would increase the toughness (mainly torsionally and tensile if I remember correctly, I'm stoned sorry). Cobalt is a rather unique addition as I'm sure you have noticed that there is no "cobalt carbides" due to it's atomic radius being too small for physics. That's the size of it's atoms*. Yes it is usually added for red hardness but it doesn't necessarily need to be, other chemistry (Wolfram molybdenum and carbon) is also possible but it's slightly different. Boron, on the other hand, is mainly for hardenability but I think you know that. Can you perhaps try and explain your experiences, namely the differences, between your experience with rex 45 and 76, and what you think about 66 exactly because I won't lie I think it's a neat alloy also and wouldn't mind trying it but I would have to look at it's composition on zknives. A tip that I have - you know how it graphs everything? I think you may be at the understanding level that you should change it to moles to better compare.. what the end result difference is going to be. I don't work at Spyderco with the mule team but I do similar type work so ya man I mean we both know it's difficult. A mule.. again I think you know this I've read some of your posts you seem relatively educated (thank you ) but for anyone else, really the "intent" behind it is to figure out what works and what doesn't for say actual production and distribution. It's not cheap. At all. I guarantee you that they.. overall? Probably break even if that with this. Since it's Spyderco and 2024 instant gratification, I'd imagine those numbers may have gone black. At least to sals family and everyone that works that works there, us customers, whoever else I'm forgetting in my Oscars speech, I hope . Yeah I'm a sarcastic bastard. Sorry guys but it's just me. And sal, I don't really have time to put together all the testing results for "HIC", I asked Mike to but he doesn't know how to with a computer, would you like me to email you everything that I have or something like that send it to someone else that will put it in.. comprehending data.

Cheers,
- Jason

[hollowt1pz]

Better toughness at higher obtainable hardness is what I've read. When I read Dr Larrins first book, the images of rex66 stood out to me. Traits of high front end sharpness might carry over to rex66 from its T15 bretheren too. After testing rex45 and rex 76 extensively I believe rex66 has potential. Just like how I believe B60 aka boron suboxide also has potential but in a different platform. Spyderco will do their due diligence, and properly research whatever avenues they wish to explore. Someone saw potential in pm60, Sal saw potential in pm60, and now it's a journey to see if the juice is worth the squeeze. We are extremely fortunate to have these interactions that we do with spyderco.

Oh definitely it's exactly what I would do if I was running the company. And well, I'm not going to try and sound like some people who are educated so I'm going to try and give you the basics that is understandable. Why did I say what I did about cobalt? Well. It really doesn't add toughness as much as you may think. Actually, a small (idk uh, let's say 3-5%) addition of chromium, known by many to be brittle, actually would increase the toughness (mainly torsionally and tensile if I remember correctly, I'm stoned sorry). Cobalt is a rather unique addition as I'm sure you have noticed that there is no "cobalt carbides" due to it's atomic radius being too small for physics. That's the size of it's atoms*. Yes it is usually added for red hardness but it doesn't necessarily need to be, other chemistry (Wolfram molybdenum and carbon) is also possible but it's slightly different. Boron, on the other hand, is mainly for hardenability but I think you know that. Can you perhaps try and explain your experiences, namely the differences, between your experience with rex 45 and 76, and what you think about 66 exactly because I won't lie I think it's a neat alloy also and wouldn't mind trying it but I would have to look at it's composition on zknives. A tip that I have - you know how it graphs everything? I think you may be at the understanding level that you should change it to moles to better compare.. what the end result difference is going to be. I don't work at Spyderco with the mule team but I do similar type work so ya man I mean we both know it's difficult. A mule.. again I think you know this I've read some of your posts you seem relatively educated (thank you ) but for anyone else, really the "intent" behind it is to figure out what works and what doesn't for say actual production and distribution. It's not cheap. At all. I guarantee you that they.. overall? Probably break even if that with this. Since it's Spyderco and 2024 instant gratification, I'd imagine those numbers may have gone black. At least to sals family and everyone that works that works there, us customers, whoever else I'm forgetting in my Oscars speech, I hope . Yeah I'm a sarcastic bastard. Sorry guys but it's just me. And sal, I don't really have time to put together all the testing results for "HIC", I asked Mike to but he doesn't know how to with a computer, would you like me to email you everything that I have or something like that send it to someone else that will put it in.. comprehending data.

Cheers,
- Jason

Shut up kiddo. You know that I know how to do it generally speaking.

Guys, I have a theory. Hear me out here. So, we all agree with one another that.. this material doesn't exactly cut like steel. While nerd above has said that I am kinda correct, I'm not smart enough to know. But IF, zirconia.. softens with pressure, is it as simple as uhm. The edge being so thin that the physics behind the reasoning for that occuring is just. Just that? It gets softer thus cuts more like a sharp nylon 6.6/plastic/titanium/cobalt?

[sal]

And sal, I don't really have time to put together all the testing results for "HIC", I asked Mike to but he doesn't know how to with a computer, would you like me to email you everything that I have or something like that send it to someone else that will put it in.. comprehending data.
Cheers,
- Jason

Hi Jason,

Thanx for the offer, but no thanx. I generally don't rely on digital predictions. They're interesting to read, like Larrin's, but the Mule Team is all about hands on "real World Experience". Also, we have some really bright folks that have been offering and sharing testing results, which we appreciate.

sal

[hollowt1pz]

And sal, I don't really have time to put together all the testing results for "HIC", I asked Mike to but he doesn't know how to with a computer, would you like me to email you everything that I have or something like that send it to someone else that will put it in.. comprehending data.
Cheers,
- Jason

Hi Jason,

Thanx for the offer, but no thanx. I generally don't rely on digital predictions. They're interesting to read, like Larrin's, but the Mule Team is all about hands on "real World Experience". Also, we have some really bright folks that have been offering and sharing testing results, which we appreciate.

sal

I can already respond for him lmao. He doesn't trust computational results either. Heck he doesn't even trust traditional scientific testing methods because he's always like well ya it.. shows x y and z but it's not really that simple with physics. When you think one thing is happening; you can be wrong! Jas would say that's how the human mind works and I can't necessarily disagree with that.

I'm literally laughing about you two and whatnot on and off when I think about this stuff. I would have lost money if I was a betting man. Oh wait; I am. Ha.

Mike

[Steveng]

This sure looks like a conversation made for a PM.

[VeraX_Knives]

Hi Jason,

Thanx for the offer, but no thanx. I generally don't rely on digital predictions. They're interesting to read, like Larrin's, but the Mule Team is all about hands on "real World Experience". Also, we have some really bright folks that have been offering and sharing testing results, which we appreciate.

sal

No problem whatsoever. I actually do rely on.. science a little bit more than some people realize but only as educated guess datasets that as the old saying goes, correlation causation.

This sure looks like a conversation made for a PM.

Typically I'd agree with you, and if I'm being honest I suppose I agree with sal on his.. methodology here actually. Just spent some time on it and I had no idea what exactly people wanted and I guess being a nice guy.

The only reason I disagree with you is that I can't PM sal. I know me and mike may be a bit nerdy, sorry.

[Steveng]

Typically I'd agree with you, and if I'm being honest I suppose I agree with sal on his.. methodology here actually. Just spent some time on it and I had no idea what exactly people wanted and I guess being a nice guy.

The only reason I disagree with you is that I can't PM sal. I know me and mike may be a bit nerdy, sorry.

Just thought I would mention it. Was not aware of the PM restrictions. Carry on...

[VeraX_Knives]

Something that I found cleaning. IDK if this helps anyone but I figured it should be shared because I just kinda tested .. pregabalin and which basically made me drunk - please don't worry about me I do know that it's not necessary quote unquote smart?. but I had to do it to figure out what it .. does to a friend of mine with addiction issues. I'm sorry @TazKristi.

It's I guess me writing it down theres some facts I guess I typed this from a phone call but, regarding mpl-1, I guess it's.. pertinent information. Feel free to delete it if I'm wrong.

https://gyazo.com/044c67ad8677d12e4d6ea249637b91ce

The word under 45Rc is annealed hardness. I honestly don't know what CCW means.. I am on medication that severely impacts my.. thinking. Yes I know it's dumb. I. have enough experience with medical stuff my wife's a psychotherapist. I know the irony. Shut up