Knife that screams liner lock got the compression lock - why?

[Sharp Guy]

^ I'm with James & Sal

As much as I like my liner (and frame) locks, I have great appreciation of the compression lock

[Wartstein]

Hey, All:

Circling back to Wartstein's questions about my statement: "...for a bushcraft-worthy knife, the strength of a Compression Lock is a significant advantage..."

Of course not claiming at all that I'd know even remotely close to what you (and of course also Sal) know about knife designs and lock strength - but that said:

Is it a "significant advantage" indeed -?

I always say that I find the comp.lock an ingenious design, especially the way how it makes the basic idea of a linerlock undoubtedly stronger.

But is that really needed even in a "bushcraft-worthy knife"?
Honest question, and sure, if one can have "stronger" this is always nice, but I never felt my Tenacious or Millie (1) ever came close to a lock fail even in "harder" folder bushcraft tasks.

Do you actually hear about let's say Millie 1 users who complain that its lock was to "weak"?
I can recall watching actually rather silly Millie 1 "hard use" tests, but it still was interesting to see that its linerlock could take a brutal beating without failing.

To me personally there are definitely reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (and vice versa!), but practically speaking the higher strength of the former is not a significant one.

My opinion was intended to address the broad scope of ALL LinerLocks and ALL Compression Locks. I was not comparing a WolfSpyder to a Military Model or commenting on the merits of any other specific knives.

I have personally had a LinerLock fail on me during use and did not enjoy the experience. I have never had a Compression Lock fail. Like all of us, I am both a product and victim of my own experience.

Objectively, however, the engineering of LinerLocks involves many factors, including the angle of the tang ramp, the angle of the lock bar face, the thickness of the liner, the length of the lock bar, its spring tension, the material, hardness, and finish of the lock bar, the amount of contact surface at the lock face, and whether the tang ramp is flat or has the added benefit of a Terzuola-style concave ramp (as the Military Model does). I also believe the size of the cutout of the lock-release "scallop" in the handle--if any--is a very significant aspect of LinerLock design (I'm not alone in that. Look at Gayle Bradley's LinerLock designs.).

With all those dynamics in play, there are many variables in executing a LinerLock well. The more variables there are, the more room for error. That fact, and the fact that you must momentarily "tempt fate" by placing your thumb in the path of the edge when releasing the lock, collectively define its "overall potential"--at least according to my personal logic.

The Compression Lock certainly shares some of the same variables of the LinerLock's engineering, but is significantly different mechanically. Its mechanical differences, its vectors of force, and the fact that the lock release tab is positioned in the softest part of your hand during use are quantifiable and significant advantages.

My personal experience has also included the privilege of witnessing lock-strength tests in Spyderco's R&D lab. I have seen firsthand how LinerLocks fail and how Compression Locks fail and have seen the force involved for each. Based on that experience, I much prefer the WAY Compression Locks fail to the WAY LinerLocks fail and the relative forces involved to cause each failure.

In simple terms, I regard a knife with a Compression Lock like a truck. A LinerLock is more like a car. If I'm driving off road (an analogy for the rigors of bushcrafting with a knife), I'd rather have a truck. Could I drive a car off road? Sure. Would some cars survive that challenge better than others? Of course. But in general terms, some kind of truck would probably be a better choice.

With all that said, if I KNEW I was going to do any type of bushcrafting, I wouldn't choose a folder. If I absolutely had to, it wouldn't be either a LinerLock or a WolfSpyder.

Stay safe,

Mike

Hey Mike,

thanks for your detailled reply and analogy, really appreciate it!

From my compared to yours definitely really limited experience (not "humble brag", just a fact...), I of course agree that:

a) generally the comp. lock is stronger than the linerlock and
b) when comparing ALL linerlocks on the knife market to comp.locks undoubtedly the strength of the comp.lock IS a "significant advantage" indeed!

Still: From my own, pretty extensive and "hard use" experience with the (only) two Spyderco (!) linerlocks I tried (Millie and S35VN Tenacious LW) I personally would not see a comp.lock on these two models as a significant advantage cause it is stronger (which it certainly is).
This just because the linerlocks on those two models have already proven to be easily strong enough for everything I could throw on them plus in the many reports I read and saw especially about the Millie there never was any complaint that its lock would actually and in real life use be "too weak".

So I guess what I am trying to say is very much "pro Spyderco":

Folks should not rule out a Spyderco linerlock knife due to thinking the lock could be "too weak" just because they had bad experiences with crappy linerlocks of some other brand, but if they generally like the design just go with that Spydie. If its lock is like the two Spydie linerlocks I know (Millie and Tenacious), they won´t run into problems.

Other than with the comp.lock there are a ton of cheapo linerlock knives out there, but Spyderco imo knows perfectly well what they are doing with their linerlock.

That said: Even if one does not need the added strength of the comp.lock:
- All other things being equal of course it does no hurt to have that
- And I do understand the appeal and fascination of owning a knife with a superstrong lock, even if one does not need that and a (Spyderco!) linerlock would easily be strong enough. A bit like I am fascinated by the concept of a superlight knife like the Salt 2, though admittedly the Delica would already be light enough, even in my mountaineering pack.

Have a good day!

[Michal O]

I wouldn't buy Rhino or Kapara if they were just another liner lock. It's nothing wrong with it but I like compression lock more. Every budget knife now has liner lock, so nothing special about it to hit "buy it now" button. Plenty people probably have same opinion and there is your answer why it doesn't have liner lock.

There was big Spyderco knife from Taichung, Hundred Pacer. Reason why I didn't bought it - liner lock instead compression lock, was final deal breaker.

I have two liner lock Spyderco knives and I wish they had different lock. Spyderco ll tend to be harder to operate because edges are very sharp, without any cut relief, compared to budget knives with ll, they don't shine. Only pros is thickness of the lock.

[Wartstein]

I wouldn't buy Rhino or Kapara if they were just another liner lock. It's nothing wrong with it but I like compression lock more. Every budget knife now has liner lock, so nothing special about it.

There are good reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (like vice versa), but I think SPYDERCOS linerlocks are exactly NOT "just another linerlock"...like " on every budget knife".

IF one wants to experience the virtues and advantages a linerlock has (like every locktype has its own), a Spyderco linerlock with its high quality and refinement is a good way to do that.

Of course I am not saying that everyone should necessarily try a good linerlock - if one knows in the first place that operation or concept or whatever of a comp.lock is more their thing: Just go with that lock!

I think though that due to the bad reputation linerlocks have from their "budget knife image" some folks might actually be kept from really and completely unbiased trying to experience the distinct advantages a (high quality!) linerlock does have.

EDIT: I replied to your post when for whatever reason only the first three of your sentences showed up (see how your post is quoted in mine) - so I could not read that you do have and tried Spyderco linerlocks when replying myself

[Michal O]

I wouldn't buy Rhino or Kapara if they were just another liner lock. It's nothing wrong with it but I like compression lock more. Every budget knife now has liner lock, so nothing special about it.

There are good reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (like vice versa), but I think SPYDERCOS linerlocks are exactly NOT "just another linerlock"...like " on every budget knife".

IF one wants to experience the virtues and advantages a linerlock has (like every locktype has its own), a Spyderco linerlock with its high quality and refinement is a good way to do that.

Of course I am not saying that everyone should necessarily try a good linerlock - if one knows in the first place that operation or concept or whatever of a comp.lock is more their thing: Just go with that lock!

I think though that due to the bad reputation linerlocks have from their "budget knife image" some folks might actually be kept from really and completely unbiased trying to experience the distinct advantages a (high quality!) linerlock does have.

As I've mentioned in edited message, I have two Spyderco liner lock knives - Barong and Khukuri, pros is solid thickness and fact you can't release lock by accident, cons is everything else. I had to break edges on liners because they were sharp as piece of fresh cut sheet metal. No relief cut make them harder to operate because I personally use index finger to release any liner or frame lock - being able to do it is main condition under which I buy knife with that lock. I'm keeping these two only because they're long time discontinued and I like designs but they're less comfortable for operating and you probably need to make mods on them. Taichung perhaps is doing it better but still I'm in comp lock team.

[Danke]

Liner Locks R OK

[RugerNurse]

This turned into an interesting thread. The only liner locks I’ve used were on cheap knives and they felt cheap. I should try a Spyderco liner lock at some point. The compression lock is still a great lock for me though.
I do think Sal is right, listen to any knife review on YouTube and they all say “liner locks are bad because it puts your finger in the past of the blade.” Being somewhat new to knives myself, me and new group of people getting into the hobby listen to these reviews and get “brainwashed” into thinking certain things are better than others.
Someone mentioned treating every knife like a slip joint, which is so true. I’ve never had my Swiss Army knife close on me. Knives are tools to cut not “fidget toys” like some people make them into. Treat them with respect and the lock should be fine.

[Wartstein]

....knife review on YouTube and they all say “liner locks are bad because it puts your finger in the past of the blade.” Being somewhat new to knives myself, me and new group of people getting into the hobby listen to these reviews and get “brainwashed” into thinking certain things are better than others.
....

Not blaming you personally at all.

Cause you ARE most likely a victim of this again and again repeated answer to the not most relevant question when it comes to "finger safety": "Are the fingers in the path of the blade?"

1.) The obvious RELEVANT main question when it comes to "finger safety" is:

"Can the fingers get hit by the CUTTING EDGE when closing the knife?"

2.) ....And concerning THAT question (the relevant one...) there is a clear difference between good linerlock knives WITH and such WITHOUT a finger choil

Two more more or less relevant questions would be:
2.) How likely is it that the fingers get in the way of the edge by accident
3.) How secure does the knife sit in hand while closing it in a way that the fingers can´t get hit by the edge.

I think I´ll just have to start a once and for all dedicated thread about this I then can point to when people like you perhaps miss out on great linerlock knives due to that "brain washing".

For now: Think about it or try yourself:
Take the Millie 1 for example.
- Linerlock and finger choil.
- You practically CAN`T release the blade with the thumb on the locktab (deliberately or by accident) without inevitably at the same time putting that same thumb in a position where it can only get hit by the choil, but NOT by the edge.
And by this also all other fingers are kept safe, regardless where they sit on the handle (cause the thumb would stop the blade on the choil before the edge could hit other fingers).
So an ingenious, simple, idiot proof "safety mechanism". Releasing the blade and keeping the fingers safe is inevitably linked.
- While with other locks one has to deliberately move the fingers out of the path of the edge, which at least in theory can be messed up.

Of course there is more to this than the rather short part above, it is not THAT simple and not THAT black and white, but you get the idea...

[riclaw]

Good points, Wartstein. I have the Sage 1 and carry it because it's easy to close safely. The choil hits my thumb instead of the edge.

[Wartstein]

Good points, Wartstein. I have the Sage 1 and carry it because it's easy to close safely. The choil hits my thumb instead of the edge.

Thanks!

Yes, the point here is:

- With your Sage 1 you CAN actually leave your fingers in the "path of the blade" when releasing the lock (especially also by accident) and nothing bad will happen.

- In other words: When releasing the lock on your linerlock Sage 1 you don´t have to think about and take a deliberate action to move the fingers out of the blade path (which you have to do with all other locks in the moment when the lock gets operated).
Pressing the lock tab inevitably means at the same time putting the thumb in the path of the CHOIL, which keeps all fingers safe.
- Or in other-other words : When your thumb is in the path of the EDGE, the lock can´t be released.

- Plus, bonus points: While operating the lock of your Sage 1, the knife sits very secure and natural in hand. So "safe" in another capacity.
Not so much the case with the pinch grips one has to use with the "fingers out of the blade path" methods on comp. - , ball bearing - and back-locks.
Of course one can use other methods with those locks (I usually do): But then they do not have the "idiot proof" safety feature of a linerlock with choil.

- That said: For me personally this is a rather theoretical discussion anyway, since I find all locks more than safe enough for the fingers (if at all I am rather concerned with how safe the knife sits in hand while operating the lock).

I am just puzzeled by on how much emphasis is laid on that "fingers out of the blade path" - thing and how this is used to tell people that linerlocks as a whole would be "unsafe".
Here a more differenziated point of view is really highly due - a good linerlock on a knife with a finger choil is just not "less safe for the fingers" than other locks. Something that people who really use such knives and don´t have two blind eyes know anway, but as this thread shows folks who don´t have that background might be kept from trying themselves by believing in this again and again repeated general statement...

[Mushroom]

It’s important to discern opinions from objective truths when watching those “expert” knife review videos. If any of the so called “experts” are explicitly stating “liner locks are bad because it puts your finger in the path of the blade” that would be a good example of both in one statement and how to discern between the two.

The objective statement is that linerlocks require the users finger to be placed in line with the moving path of the blade. The opinion is that linerlocks are bad because of that objective truth.

There are numerous reasons for why someone may or may not value keeping their fingers out of the path of the blade: finger safety, fidget factor, ease of operation, etc. None of them make liner locks objectively bad but they are still real considerations for some people. (Please don’t conflate my acknowledgement of these reasons as an endorsement of any of them)


@Wartstein Just to touch upon some of the questions you brought up I’ll begin with an analogy - Person one and two are playing catch with a baseball and person three is watching. The chance of accidentally being hit by the ball is greater depending on where person three positions themselves to watch. Standing in between person one and two as they play catch versus standing off to the side.

Same applies to liner locks. For example, someone who holds value in finger safety, the chance of an accident happening is increased when the users finger is placed in the path of the blade to begin with. That in itself is a direct translation to an increase in safety hazard. Even if it is just 1% difference greater, that difference still exists. How much that difference matters can only be answered by the individual that is using the knife.

Even a liner lock knife with a choil that would hit the users thumb if they closed the blade that far presents a higher chance of an accident happening just by having their thumb there in the first place. Accidentally lifting the thumb directly into the edge while removing it from the path of the blade is a real possibility that could lead to injury.


(Disclaimer: People should make their own decisions regarding knives and folding knife locks. This post should not be taken as me trying to brainwash anyone. I’m just speaking objectively, not sharing my opinion, so please don’t shoot the messenger.)

[Ramonade]

Up until 2021 or 2022, only Spyderco could use the compression lock, their invention.
Why not use it ?

I get it for collaborations that were initially linerlocks. Except if it is something the creator of the original custom knife agreed to. If they did, well they wanted it that way and good for them

PS : Love all locks ! Just saw a knife that is a pin and the pin part of the knife is the lock, so ingenious.

[RugerNurse]

I think the same mentality applies to steels. A total newcomer to knives would watch reviews and look up stuff on retailer site it would seem that M390 is the only steel to use because its “premium.” My VG10 Delica still suits me fine as I don’t use my knife for everyday stuff that much.
I like that Spyderco offers so many steels and like hearing people’s opinions on them and why they like them.

[RugerNurse]

This thread reminds me of this: