Spyderco Forums

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:17 pm

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:45 pm

All we have to do to prove my point about redundancy is take a look at all the wharncliffes on last years discontinued list.

You're conflating blade shape with blade and overall length. The wharnies were discontinued across all sizes of the Seki back locks. The Endela, the half-inch increment of the Seki lineup, remains in the catalog.

I disagree, I don’t believe I’m conflating anything. I was providing a real world example to support the point I was making of how redundancy can impact their catalog.

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:57 pm

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:17 pm

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:45 pm

All we have to do to prove my point about redundancy is take a look at all the wharncliffes on last years discontinued list.

You're conflating blade shape with blade and overall length. The wharnies were discontinued across all sizes of the Seki back locks. The Endela, the half-inch increment of the Seki lineup, remains in the catalog.

I disagree, I don’t believe I’m conflating anything. I was providing a real world example to support the point I was making of how redundancy can impact their catalog.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good night.

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:53 pm

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:57 pm

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:17 pm

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:45 pm

All we have to do to prove my point about redundancy is take a look at all the wharncliffes on last years discontinued list.

You're conflating blade shape with blade and overall length. The wharnies were discontinued across all sizes of the Seki back locks. The Endela, the half-inch increment of the Seki lineup, remains in the catalog.

I disagree, I don’t believe I’m conflating anything. I was providing a real world example to support the point I was making of how redundancy can impact their catalog.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good night.

Sure we can and my point still stands. You have good night as well.

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:24 pm

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:53 pm

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:57 pm

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:17 pm

You're conflating blade shape with blade and overall length. The wharnies were discontinued across all sizes of the Seki back locks. The Endela, the half-inch increment of the Seki lineup, remains in the catalog.

I disagree, I don’t believe I’m conflating anything. I was providing a real world example to support the point I was making of how redundancy can impact their catalog.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good night.

Sure we can and my point still stands. You have good night as well.

I tried to be nice. You point doesn't stand. You absolutely conflated blade shape with blade length.

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:45 pm

ugaarguy wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:44 pm

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:28 am

.....

I didn’t say a 3.5” Native wasn’t for me and it wasn’t hyperbole, I meant it - where is the limit? People have already been asking for a larger Native Chief as well. 4.5” Native Chiefs are also a glaring hole in their lineup, so why shouldn’t they make it? Either way, I would question if their catalog could support that addition too…

After the Native series sets the precedent, we will see more requests for half inch variants of every other popular knife series because of supposed “glaring holes” in their lineup.

It’s a glaring hole in your opinion, not Spyderco’s. The Shaman is redundant in your opinion, not Spyderco’s. All we have to do to prove my point about redundancy is take a look at all the wharncliffes on last years discontinued list.

Not really knowing (but just assuming) what "the market" wants and what not, I think it could be right that an "in between Native" is redundant, but it could also become a real success (this is what I´d guess)

The "wharncliffe analogy" does not fit here though in my humble opinion:

- "Wharncliffe" as a general blade shape and concept did not turn out to be as popular across several models as Spyderco obviously would have hoped.
So this blade shape was "tested" in various sizes, did not catch on as hoped, and so got disco´ed to a large part

- "3.5 blade folders" as a general category also got "tested" in many variations, and differently to "wharncliff" DID turn out to be very successful from all I know.

Concerning the Lil Native Sal recently said something along the lines that the backlock was not that popular assumingly cause people did not like the a bit harder opening due to the positioning of the hole in the "no hump" blade. Perhaps he meant this to be the case for the whole Native line, and the NATIVE platform itself is not that popular as I personally thought - ?

But if this is NOT the case and the Native platform as a whole is selling well, I personally still think that a 3.5" real Native definitely would fill an "obvious gap".

This is not about randomly asking for 0.5" steps, but for a knife in a most likely very popular size range (Manix, PM 2,... show that, I guess) and on top a 3.5 model would be the largest option for quite some people who want a larger Native 5, but can´t carry a Chief legally.
Also there literally IS a "gap" between the "jumps" from Lil Native to Native 5 to Chief (much like there would be from Dfly to Delica to Endura if there were no Endela and Stretch or from Para 3 to Millie if there was no PM2)

It´s like with the Endela, which was literally made to "split the difference between the Endura 4 and Delica 4..." and [to offer] "all the time tested features of each in a perfect in between format" (quoting "Spyderco", see here https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C243BK/1782).
And the Endela was made, despite there was already the Stretch in its size range and the Seki backlock lineup - and the Stretch imo is more similar to the Endela than the Shaman would be to a potential "in between" Native.

Just to sum up what in my subjective opinion makes a "real Native", why people might want a version between the "5" and the Chief and why the Shaman is not that.

- Rather thin, slicey, but not tall blade with comparably fine tip (very fine on the Chief).
(Shaman: Thick, partly sabre grind, taller blade, stout tip)

- Completely flat spine with no hump (which has pros and cons).
(Shaman: DOES offer that too)

- Highly refined backlock, usually less blade play than for example the Seki backlocks, with all the distinct advantages a backlock offers (closing bias/safety in pocket, ergos, ease of operation with gloves, many ways of operating it and so on).
(Shaman: Comp.lock with its own advantages, but obviously not a backlock)

- Light weight, slim, not tall, flat handle and so great carry with a substantial choil
(Shaman: Has the choil too, but is rather heavy and more "clunky", rounded, not flat handle, taller, and so different, for most not as good carry I guess).

- Linerless both in G10 and FRN
(Shaman: Liners).

To me Shaman and a potential 3.5" Native are clearly further apart from each other than for example Stretch 2 and Endela (the TWO (!) models that fill the " 3.5 niche" in the Seki lineup)

A 3.5 Native would bring all the defining features I described above in a model that would

- still be compact and a nice, shorter carry (something I like)
- but still offer a good four finger grip for almost all hand sizes behind the choil (the "5" does not)
- be the largest option legal in places where the Chief is not anymore
- actually fill the imo (can´t know, just assume!) very popular "PM2 size slot"
- probably have, just by geometry, a fine tip, but not THAT fine as the Chiefs (which, for my liking, almost looks a bit fragile)

We could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:45 am

WE could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

You probably could, Robin.

I would most definitely ruin a dozen or so knives, spend a significant amount on power tools and other equipment that I don't currently own, and figure out where to put a new workshop, before I am able to come up with something like that.

I think I'll wait for the 3.5-inch Native instead

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:45 am

WE could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!!!

Unfortunately though, it’s just easier for people on here to tell Spyderco to invest resources into creating the knife they want opposed to them making a personal investment to get what they want. I don’t want to call it selfishness, because I know what kind of can of worms that will open but self-serving is not far off.

Commissioning the custom work to be done is exponentially less costly than it is for Spyderco to develop the new model.

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:45 am

WE could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

I came to post the same thing!

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:23 am

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:45 am

WE could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!!!

Unfortunately though, it’s just easier for people on here to tell Spyderco to invest resources into creating the knife they want opposed to them making a personal investment to get what they want. I don’t want to call it selfishness, because I know what kind of can of worms that will open but self-serving is not far off.

Commissioning the custom work to be done is exponentially less costly than it is for Spyderco to develop the new model.

The thing I don´t like about that imo pretty far off "self serving sentiment":

It could keep folks from discussing knives - folks who are just enthusiastic and interested in, musing about and sharing their passion about Spyderco here with joy.

Probably no need to say it, cause it is very obvious anyway that discussions like this are only a good thing for Spyderco, show that good people with their own minds think and care about the product, really use those, test those, enjoy design features and just share how they think those features could be used even further.

No one "tells" Spyderco what they should do - reading through this and other threads I don´t know how one could come to such a conclusion.

Again, it is obvious anyway what I mean, since Sal himself quite often stated how he enjoys and values inputs, and to learn about what people like to see and dream of when it comes to Spyderco.
At least some models or variant came to life right because people enthusiastically shared their thoughts (like wharncliff Delica, the Ayoob sprint...)

Or, as Michael Janich has put it: " like all things Spyderco, if you really want something, keep asking for it here". (viewtopic.php?p=1437159#p1437159)

So: Discussing Spyderco in any positive and creative way on a Spyderco forum is only speaking for the brand and their knives imo.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:55 am

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:23 am

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:45 am

WE could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!!!

Unfortunately though, it’s just easier for people on here to tell Spyderco to invest resources into creating the knife they want opposed to them making a personal investment to get what they want. I don’t want to call it selfishness, because I know what kind of can of worms that will open but self-serving is not far off.

Commissioning the custom work to be done is exponentially less costly than it is for Spyderco to develop the new model.

The thing I don´t like about that imo pretty far off "self serving sentiment":

It could keep folks from discussing knives - folks who are just enthusiastic and interested in, musing about and sharing their passion about Spyderco here with joy.

Probably no need to say it, cause it is very obvious anyway that discussions like this are only a good thing for Spyderco, show that good people with their own minds think and care about the product, really use those, test those, enjoy design features and just share how they think those features could be used even further.

No one "tells" Spyderco what they should do - reading through this and other threads I don´t know how one could come to such a conclusion.

Again, it is obvious anyway what I mean, since Sal himself quite often stated how he enjoys and values inputs, and to learn about what people like to see and dream of when it comes to Spyderco.
At least some models or variant came to life right because people enthusiastically shared their thoughts (like wharncliff Delica, the Ayoob sprint...)

Or, as Michael Janich has put it: " like all things Spyderco, if you really want something, keep asking for it here". (viewtopic.php?p=1437159#p1437159)

So: Discussing Spyderco in any positive and creative way on a Spyderco forum is only speaking for the brand and their knives imo.

That’s a lot of virtue signaling. This is the can of worms I was trying to avoid. I expressed my opinion and I promise it was not personal towards you in any way. I genuinely don’t mean to be rude but this nitpicking of every word I say lately is getting a little out of hand.

Let’s focus on modifying a Native Chief. It’s a solution that is available right now. Either done at home or by a skilled craftsmen but it can be done - the solution is currently available.

While this process could be costly for the end line user in either time or money, or both, it still pales in comparison to the investments and sacrifices Spyderco would have to make to bring it to market.

That leads me to question, why won’t you modify or have a Native Chief modified to achieve this goal?

I don’t see a problem with people recommending a design they would like to see spyderco produce. It shouldn’t matter if it could be achieved by custom work. A lot of people aren’t going to do that. I agree with nicks point about it feeling like a pretty redundant design to be financially viable.. But I also could be biased because I’m not interested in a 3.5 native, at the end of the day if enough people show they want spyderco to make this design I’m sure spyderco will heavily consider making it, just like how the endela was born, enough requests came in and sal produced the design.

Tristan_david2001 wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:34 am

I don’t see a problem with people recommending a design they would like to see spyderco produce. It shouldn’t matter if it could be achieved by custom work. A lot of people aren’t going to do that. I agree with nicks point about it feeling like a pretty redundant design to be financially viable.. But I also could be biased because I’m not interested in a 3.5 native, at the end of the day if enough people show they want spyderco to make this design I’m sure spyderco will heavily consider making it, just like how the endela was born, enough requests came in and sal produced the design.

Wholly agreed!

Just to reiterate, I’m not speaking out against this knife and never suggested it should not be made. The financial aspect of it all is only a small part of what I’ve been saying. For myself, it stems back to my original post questioning if it could fit into their catalog. They make an incredibly diverse range of knives but as we’ve seen already, too much of the same thing can lead to complications with redundancy.

I understand that discontinued models are inevitable but to add something like this means something else would have to go. I would question what model should it replace and, more importantly, why? I suppose they could withhold the Edgerati and develop this model instead.

cjk wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:49 am

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:45 am

WE could always buy a Native chief and do this, too : https://messerforum.net/threads/spyderc ... ip.145705/

I came to post the same thing!

hehe, I know you know how I reacted seeing this ! Someone beat me to it, and did it very well !


~~~~~~~

I wasn't showing this to say "don't ask, do/make do" by the way, It's just that the guy who customized his Native Chief shared his work in a Spyderco group and he called it his 3,5" Native so, perfectly on topic. I had to share !

I urge people to keep thinking what they want to think and do what they want to do

I see there being room for the Native Scout in the lineup. Personally I'd be more interested in other potential backlock models that Sal has mentioned: the Golden made Polestar and the Cliffjumper.

OK, I gotta admit, that's a very attractive size. Seeing it won me over. Can we just scootch the finger choil back into the handle a bit? There's plenty of room, and it'd leave more edge available for cutting.

I’m sure there would be room, spyderco is currently under expansion and I bet there’s a lot of models in their queue we have no idea about yet. It doesn’t have to replace anything I don’t think. IMO it still all just comes down to if it serves enough public demand

Well, my sharing of the guy's work was also meant for the people who imagine such a knife as their dream knife. These guys must be impatient to own such a knife. Because no matter what if we ever sea a "real spyderco" version, it will be in 2030 or more

I don’t understand a lot of the negative attitude going on here.