T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

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kennbr34
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T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#1

Post by kennbr34 »

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Okay, so, about 1400 feet of cardboard cut later... I have really come to like T15 quite a lot.

Spine Thickness: .115"
Primary blade grind: 2.5 Degrees Per Side
Edge angle: 15 Degrees Per Side

I started off re-profiling the edge to 15 degrees per side. The edge from the factory was pretty close to this as measured with a laser goniometer, though with a few spots where it wavered by about 2 degrees. I figured that as well as making sure there was no "burnt" metal, that I could probably get it more even (no shade). I set the edge with a 400 grit Atoma, and it was insanely sharp. First time I ever regretted doing a 3-finger test, as I immediately cut myself. But, since my past edge-retention tests have been done with a 2k polish, followed with a 600-grit finish, I decided to follow suit. I ended up with an edge that was 15 dps +/- 1 degree, and 114 BESS. It would tree-top my beard-hair, whittle it, etc. and pop off arm-hair. Wasn't quite as aggressive as off of the 400 grit, but certainly in tune with what I'd call sharp.

So I started off performing the tests I did in my K294 and 10V testing:viewtopic.php?f=15&t=95675

Using 8.5" wide slats of single-layer corrugation cardboard that I get from Chewy pet supply shipments. I draw-cut downward through the corrugations at 8.5" lengths, going from heel-to-tip of the blade. The slats are held by hand suspended in the air so there's no cutting-board or anything to consider.

100 cuts in, it was already outperforming 10V or K294 in terms of holding the up-front sharpness. The latter steels tend to degrade from their initial sharpness quite immediately into a "working sharp" state, and hold that for a while. On the other hand, this seemed to show almost no dulling after 100 cuts, or about 70 feet worth of cardboard. In fact the BESS difference per foot remained basically static through the first 500 cuts.

Through 500 cuts, or 354 feet, the BESS score dropped to 205, which is still quite respectable. Anecdotally, it was still "hair scraping" sharp. Meaning it would shave off some arm/leg hairs, but still kind of scrape some skin off along with it. Still quite sharp, and sharper than 10V/K294 at the same state both in terms of BESS score, and especially in terms of the feel on a 3-finger test. This is kind of the "transitional" phase where 10V/K294 would go into a "working-edge". In terms of BESS, the T15 was still about 50 points ahead of both 10V/K294 at this point.

I didn't really have enough cardboard to test the T15 out to the same extent I had done the 10V/K294, but honestly I don't really think it's necessary either. Larrin Thomas has CATRA data showing exhaustive edge retention figures, and so I'm really more interested in trying to map out the front-end sharpness. There's also some questionable variability in my BESS testing, where some of the figures would seem to suggest T15 having twice the edge retention of 10V at the same amount of cutting, but I have a theory about that I'll share further down.

That said, my anecdotal experience matches the initial drops in BESS scores among all three steels, and I have heard similar reports about T15 holding it's initial sharpness longer as well. It would take cutting into literal miles worth of cardboard to start seeing differences in absolute edge retention.

I'm kind of curious about why T15 would hold the front-end sharpness longer than the more carbide-rich steels. Looking at some comparative micrographs from Knife Steel Nerds, I have a theory...

T15:
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10v:
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The interesting thing is that while 10V/K294 clearly has more carbide volume, the size of them is roughly the same in T15. I think that might explain why it holds the initial sharpness longer than 10V, because that ferrous matrix is basically going to degrade at a similar rate for each steel, meaning the point in which it's the carbides holding the edge structure comes sooner for the 10V/K294. Since the T15 steel has more of a ferrous matrix with smaller grain sizes, it maintains an apex that is narrower than the size of the vanadium/tungsten carbides. Say each steel starts with a 1 micron apex, and the vanadium carbides and vanadium/tungsten carbides are 3 microns wide, the T15 actually has more sub-3-micron grains to lose than the 10V/K294, so it's apex will remain narrower than 3 microns for longer. I think the only issue with that theory is that edge apexes seldom get down to 1 micron in general, but I think the same effect would scale to apexes that are much wider and more carbides present in the cross-sectional volume of the apex.

As far as the numbers suggesting T15 will outcut 10V/K294 goes...

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I wish the CATRA numbers showed the loss in sharpness along the duration of the test, because while there's no reason to believe that T15 will outcut 10V/K294 based on CATRA results, I also have to wonder just how sharp the 10V and K294 really are once they get up to the 675 TCC level that T15 sits at. Obviously it reaches a threshold where it will no longer cut the CATRA media, but I wonder where both steels sit in terms of a BESS score at these points. Personally, I consider a knife dull and in need of touch ups at about 300-400 BESS, but I am guessing that the minimal BESS score needed to cut the CATRA media is well above that.

If you look at the BESS scores of K294 and T15 at 991 and 1,416 feet respectively, they're nearly the same. The K294 and 10V don't drop down to what I would call dull until 2,125 feet, with BESS scores around 450. But, if you look at the 10V and K294 at 708 feet, they're already at 383 and 323 BESS respectively, while at that point T15 is still only 217 at twice that amount.

By the BESS scores it would seem like you could predict that T15 stays sharper for longer, but with the 10V and K294 outperforming T15 on the CATRA, you have to wonder what that BESS threshold is where it will no longer cut cardstock. I am just speculating, but given that CATRA uses 1mm thick, 5% silica, card stock, I am guessing that it has to be somewhere over 1000 BESS just based on when I can no longer cut cardboard of similar thickness.

In a way, and at the risk of sounding like I am disparaging the CATRA test--which I am not--it seems like that test doesn't test how long it takes a knife to get dull, but rather tests how long it takes a knife to stop cutting at all, even after it would be called dull. Yet I think that's the point. "Dull" is subjective. Failure to cut is objective.

So my final conclusion is this: 1400 feet of cardboard is a lot of cardboard. I mean, it literally took me hours to complete this test, cutting slivers of cardboard that were maybe 1/8" to 1/4" wide. While 10V/K294 may ultimately hold an edge through more feet of cardboard, I think the fact that T15 holds a finer edge for longer is a really huge factor.

It's very likely that a person would do a touch-up before cutting that much, and so if you think about it in those terms, the ability for 10V/K294 to hold a working edge for longer isn't as valuable. I mean, we are talking about literal hours of time, and literal miles worth of material. The idea that a person couldn't find the time to perform a small touch-up in the interim would really depend a lot on the actual task at hand. I wouldn't want to stop and sharpen it if my knife was all covered in blood, for example. But if we're talking about EDC edges that you want to just stay sharp and not have to sharpen as frequently, I think T15 might have the advantage there since it seems like it holds an initial level of sharpness for much longer.

Before this testing I would have put 10V/K294 firmly as my favorite, but now I'm thinking that T15 may supplant it. Personally I think this is more of a revelation that I just don't actually need to exhaustive level of edge retention 10V/K294 provides, but want a steel that preserves initial sharpness for longer as a trade-off.
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FullScaler
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#2

Post by FullScaler »

Great testing, and I have to agree, I love initial sharpness retention. The kind of sharpness that whatever you cut just seems to fall apart in two pieces without any effort.

That is what I want for my edc knives. The ones that do light duty work a few times a day and can easily be stropped or a few passes on the stones every few days as needed. That said, I also do a lot of bushcraft work where the cutting is much tougher and more sustained, and the working edge retention is more what I am after. So I think both types of edge have their place, and therefore, both types of testing have their place as well.

Nice work testing the initial sharpness retention, I have not seen that discussed or tested much anywhere else.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#3

Post by benja-man »

Interesting data! Thank you for sharing.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#4

Post by hollowt1pz »

I believe that you are absolutely correct as lower carbide volume steels, while they may not hit the CATRA numbers, the BESS test is going to be lower on lower % carbide alloys because of the softer matrix and how edge ablation works. Makes total sense to me.

I also agree with you on CATRA numbers as well, as I have personally watched the test be done and well it's exactly as you said it doesn't necessarily.. show the progression of how dull it is but still working on cutting the test sheets, of which I have a few.

If you are interested in perhaps doing some sharing of testing data, I know a kid that has a CATRA tester. I'm pretty sure that he would be interested in testing it for you but I cannot make any promises. I'll ask.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#5

Post by weeping minora »

Good work and much thanx for your efforts, Ken.

I noticed and reported that T15 holds its front-end sharpness exceptionally well; better than any other steel of its caliber that I have experience with. 15V is up there (at least with Shawn's HT), though I don't have as much experience-to-date. T15 behaves strikingly similar to my experience with the AEB-L MULE (at least with an edge supporting ~15dps). It should go without saying, but T15 will absolutely outcut AEB-L in edge retention. I am simply referring to the quality of character in how these two steels perform, rather than quantity as a result of the steels capability. I suppose I don't really do anything that elicits outright testing of toughness, but I will say it has far greater toughness than many steels of its same caliber. I have torqued into G-10, putting much lateral force upon the apex without catastrophic failure to note; just blunting. It has extreme wear resistance, and due to its high hardness (a forumite reported 66rc upon receiving their example), incredible apex stability within the ~15dps range. This also aids in its ability to hold that notable front-end sharpness. Aside its corrosion resistance, T15 is a fantastic steel. Probably the best steel for my personal use and ask out of a steel (although I do love that AEB-L). I would absolutely love to see Spyderco spread this steel around their offerings. Perhaps a UKPK, Sage 5 LW, and Military 2 ;)?
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#6

Post by RustyIron »

kennbr34 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:15 am
In a way, and at the risk of sounding like I am disparaging the CATRA test--which I am not--it seems like that test doesn't test how long it takes a knife to get dull, but rather tests how long it takes a knife to stop cutting at all, even after it would be called dull. Yet I think that's the point. "Dull" is subjective. Failure to cut is objective.

Very interesting test you did there. It's a little more relevant to my own expectations for a knife blade. My "threshold of dullness" is slicing an overripe tomato or grabbing a fingerprint. My knives are considered "dull" long before they'll stop cutting cardboard. From your test results of the three materials, it appears that T15 is the best steel for me.

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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#7

Post by hollowt1pz »

RustyIron wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:25 pm
kennbr34 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:15 am
In a way, and at the risk of sounding like I am disparaging the CATRA test--which I am not--it seems like that test doesn't test how long it takes a knife to get dull, but rather tests how long it takes a knife to stop cutting at all, even after it would be called dull. Yet I think that's the point. "Dull" is subjective. Failure to cut is objective.


Very interesting test you did there. It's a little more relevant to my own expectations for a knife blade. My "threshold of dullness" is slicing an overripe tomato or grabbing a fingerprint. My knives are considered "dull" long before they'll stop cutting cardboard. From your test results of the three materials, it appears that T15 is the best steel for me.

I'm not going to act like I can feel something that other humans can't, but I think a lot of stuff is psychological after so long of doing this. Of course CATRA is just for abrasive wear resistance. Sharpness; It seems everyone here knows that is a variable term and my "personal" HIGHLY SCIENTIFIC thorough testing for sharpness is... The standard unsupported paper towel. Which isn't scientific but can give you a lot of feedback in the edge in my opinion.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#8

Post by FirstPenguin »

Thanks for doing this! I was on the fence about getting the T15 version, but I've just put an order in. The AEB-L version was my first Mule and I like it a lot. As time goes on I've also come to appreciate knives that will retain that "freshly sharpened' feel. I'm really looking forward to trying out the T15.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#9

Post by sal »

Hi FirstPenguin,

Welcome to our forum.

sal
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#10

Post by Barmoley »

Very interesting results, thank you for doing the work. I wonder if what you are experiencing is due to how these steels respond to the particular sharpening or because T15 is harder. Not sure that it is, but likely. CATRA measures wear resistance, but the dulling you are experiencing is most likely not purely due to wear. It could be that there is either micro chipping or deformation that T15 deals with better in your tests vs K294. So that front end sharpness in your tests is being lost on K294 faster due to something other than wear. There is a very common myth that steels with higher carbide volume lose front end sharpness faster than lower carbide steels, but stay in that state longer. Larrin and possibly others have shown that this is not true and that higher wear resistance steels keep any sharpness at any point longer, as long as we are talking about dulling due to wear. So everything else being the same and if you only did 1 cut on CATRA, higher wear steel would dull less. Of course cutting cardboard by hand is a different test, so dulling mechanism is a lot more complex and possibly other factors explain what you are seeing. I don't think having less carbides at the edge would explain your results if wear is the issue, if these carbides were chipping on the other hand then maybe or if K294 edge was deforming while T15 wasn't due to differences in hardness.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#11

Post by FirstPenguin »

sal wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2024 6:23 pm
Hi FirstPenguin,

Welcome to our forum.

sal
Thanks, Sal!
kennbr34
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#12

Post by kennbr34 »

Barmoley wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:13 pm
Very interesting results, thank you for doing the work. I wonder if what you are experiencing is due to how these steels respond to the particular sharpening or because T15 is harder. Not sure that it is, but likely. CATRA measures wear resistance, but the dulling you are experiencing is most likely not purely due to wear. It could be that there is either micro chipping or deformation that T15 deals with better in your tests vs K294. So that front end sharpness in your tests is being lost on K294 faster due to something other than wear. There is a very common myth that steels with higher carbide volume lose front end sharpness faster than lower carbide steels, but stay in that state longer. Larrin and possibly others have shown that this is not true and that higher wear resistance steels keep any sharpness at any point longer, as long as we are talking about dulling due to wear. So everything else being the same and if you only did 1 cut on CATRA, higher wear steel would dull less. Of course cutting cardboard by hand is a different test, so dulling mechanism is a lot more complex and possibly other factors explain what you are seeing. I don't think having less carbides at the edge would explain your results if wear is the issue, if these carbides were chipping on the other hand then maybe or if K294 edge was deforming while T15 wasn't due to differences in hardness.
Well from what I can find, Spyderco's K294 is probably around 63-64 HRC. They ran the equivalent 10V and PMA11 at that hardness. Meanwhile, I can't find figures for the T15, but if you Google it it is capable of 67 HRC. In Larrin Thomas' testing, he shows that T15 and 10V are right about the same toughness for equivalent HRC. So if the K294 is 63-64 HRC, T15 is going to have to be a lot lower to be significantly tougher. Then, add one more wrinkle in, the 10V I tested was from Kizer cutlery, and by my best estimates compared to its performance versus K294 and using Larrin's regression formula, is below 60 HRC. That's the first issue.

Secondly, and more importantly, I would periodically use a 120x pocket scope to observe the blades. While there was some micro chipping observed, it was pretty much equal across the three steels.

Do you remember what article Larrin spoke on this subject in? I don't rent him ever covering it. Perhaps you might be thinking of Science of Sharp's Todd Simpson? I so remember him having an article talking about this subject, but he reached the opposite conclusion that: https://scienceofsharp.com/2022/12/15/c ... -part-3-3/
Despite the blade being blunted after 500 cuts, microchipping was still minimal although the build-up of carbide fatigue and cracking is evident. This is likely due to the minimal flexing of the 40 degree (inclusive) microbevel. Also, the task (careful rope cutting) presumably doesn’t involve enough lateral deflection to produce microchipping before the apex is blunted. Again, wear to the apex does not occur uniformly along the edge.

The “shaving” level of keenness (sub 0.1 micron edge) at the apex was lost early within the first 100 cuts as wear and deformation to the matrix steel occurred. This is not at all surprising considering our experience with how delicate the edge of a razor blade or new utility knife blade are. It is remarkable that a sub-micron level of keenness was maintained in the matrix steel at the apex at 300 cuts. It appears that the carbides provide structure to the near-apex steel, slowing down deformation-type blunting until the carbides are severely damaged, softening the apex to allow blunting. Keeping in mind that this is a preliminary result, it does not appear that the wear-resistance of the hard carbides contributes directly to the performance and edge retention of the keen edge. If this is generally the case in this class of steels, it suggests that there is likely an optimal carbide concentration rather than “more is better” for keen edge retention. More specifically, we want the carbides to be isolated rather than clustered. Carbide damage consistently occurs more readily in clusters where two or more carbides impact one another with flexing of the steel, suggesting that a steel with better dispersed carbides (not clustered) would perform better in this application.
A lot of "my" theory is based on this article.

Anyway... I completed a bit more testing. Found some more cardboard, but I still didn't have enough to tear up to the same numbers as I did with the 10V and K294.

One thing I should point out about this testing... The K294 and 10V are completely different knives, with slightly different geometry, etc. Yet that trend of an immediate drop off of immediate sharpness is present in both, whereas the T15 is pretty flat. Maybe when I save up more cardboard I'll do this test with my 15V Mule too.

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As a bonus... I also cut up some kitty litter boxes.

These boxes are pretty thick and dirty. Speaking of thick and dirty, please excuse my fingernails; thems my burr finders.

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Now that I have it basically broken down into sections I can shred it up. This stuff has some pretty thick sections, and most are impregnated with the clay dust, and even some of the litter too. This particular test has chipped out 15V before.

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One down...

Start: 104 BESS
1 Box Down: 153 BESS

Round two ran into some issues...

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I hastily completed shredding through it so that I could go take care of my booboo but I came back and measured...

After 2 Boxes: 182 BESS and knuckle-fileting sharp

Those boxes are pretty hard on a knife and it handled it beautifully. Also, resharpening it was pretty darn easy too.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#13

Post by horzuff »

Is there a chance the K294 and 10V just had some minuscule burr that the T15 didn't and thus the sharpness drop-off was so acute?

Lately I keep seeing something along those lines in my knives - I can't see any irregularities on my edges after sharpening, even less so after stropping (I use a 20x and 30x jewelers loupes to make sure), fingernails don't get caught on either side of the edge, yet after some use my edge starts looking as if a burr was broken off.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#14

Post by kennbr34 »

horzuff wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:53 am
Is there a chance the K294 and 10V just had some minuscule burr that the T15 didn't and thus the sharpness drop-off was so acute?

Lately I keep seeing something along those lines in my knives - I can't see any irregularities on my edges after sharpening, even less so after stropping (I use a 20x and 30x jewelers loupes to make sure), fingernails don't get caught on either side of the edge, yet after some use my edge starts looking as if a burr was broken off.
Well, I'm pretty meticulous about deburring. I check with 120x magnification, finish with edge leading strokes, etc. and so forth. But I can't say it's not possible.

It just seems improbable I would have nearly identical results with equivalent steel but on different knives from a burr, and then manage to avoid it on the T15.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#15

Post by Barmoley »

Larrin's findings on front end sharpness loss are here https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/ ... etention2/ specifically in the "Initial Edge Wear" section and also in the summary.

Because the 10V knife is different I sort of disregarded it in my initial response since if the geometry is different any comparison between different steels is meaningless. Geometry has such a significant effect on performance and test results that no conclusion can be made unless we make sure the geometry is the same. I assume that the geometry between K294 and T15 mules is the same. It would be interesting to know the hardness of these mules since you are correct that the steels seem to have similar toughness at comparable hardness. Of course impact toughness might not be exactly what matters here, but it is difficult to say. Maybe T15 is harder and in your test because the edge is deforming less it both keeps the edge shape better and also prevents microchipping from deformation. Total wild guesses on my part, just trying to think of what could explain your results. We are basically seeing what is usually called better edge stability from T15 mule in your case. Given what we know about these steels it seems that wear is not the primary dulling mechanism here and something else is the explanation for your results.

I really like scienceofsharp articles and his imagery is some of the best, but he tends to generalize too much for my liking especially when the article doesn't have the data to support his conclusions as is the case in the linked article.

Again, thank you for doing these tests and be careful :)
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#16

Post by kennbr34 »

Barmoley wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:28 am
Larrin's findings on front end sharpness loss are here https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/26/ ... etention2/ specifically in the "Initial Edge Wear" section and also in the summary.

Because the 10V knife is different I sort of disregarded it in my initial response since if the geometry is different any comparison between different steels is meaningless. Geometry has such a significant effect on performance and test results that no conclusion can be made unless we make sure the geometry is the same. I assume that the geometry between K294 and T15 mules is the same. It would be interesting to know the hardness of these mules since you are correct that the steels seem to have similar toughness at comparable hardness. Of course impact toughness might not be exactly what matters here, but it is difficult to say. Maybe T15 is harder and in your test because the edge is deforming less it both keeps the edge shape better and also prevents microchipping from deformation. Total wild guesses on my part, just trying to think of what could explain your results. We are basically seeing what is usually called better edge stability from T15 mule in your case. Given what we know about these steels it seems that wear is not the primary dulling mechanism here and something else is the explanation for your results.

I really like scienceofsharp articles and his imagery is some of the best, but he tends to generalize too much for my liking especially when the article doesn't have the data to support his conclusions as is the case in the linked article.

Again, thank you for doing these tests and be careful :)
Nice, I wonder if I read this before and simply forgot about it. I've read most of his articles on there and I notice there's a proposed theory strikingly similar to my own.

One thing that stood out to me is this part:
1) It may require micro-chipping for the high carbide steels to lose their initial sharpness more rapidly than low carbide steels, which is unlikely to occur in the CATRA test.

2) The wear of the edge in the CATRA test may be too severe to capture the initial sharpness loss that is being described.

3) The average abrasive size may be large enough that the initial edge is worn more rapidly than in typical cutting. The average silica size in the cardstock is approximately 7.5 microns and 95% of it is smaller than 30 microns [1].


4) Because the initial edge loss occurs over a relatively short period of time compared to the total edge life, the user may perceive that a high wear resistance steel had little difference from a low wear resistance steel.

5) It may be that the knives were not sharpened to a sufficiently fine edge to show the difference between high and low carbide content steels. The most common sharpening information in the data is “180 grit” which would provide a pretty coarse edge.

6) The difference in initial edge loss may not happen with slicing (as opposed to push cutting).
Points 2 and 3 stand out to me after thinking about my BESS results seeming to show a trend that T15 has better edge retention, despite knowing that in an actual exhaustive test, that it doesn't. Though it seems CATRA isn't even as "exhaustive" as I thought and ends after 60 back-and forth slices?

But point 3 is really surprising. I didn't realize the abrasive particles in the CATRA cardstock were that large.

I think there's also maybe a little bit too much difference in the way sharpness is quantified by CATRA testing versus by BESS and/or common anecdotal methods for one test to necessarily contradict the other. For example, with BESS and the three finger test (or various "hair" tests), both tend to focus more on the difference in force required to initiate a cut. On the other hand, sharpness (and cutting ability) seem to be measured more by how much material can be cut with a static force. In some ways I think maybe the BESS data is only really serving to reinforce anecdotal experience like 3-finger testing and hair-cutting because they're similar mechanisms, but in a way whatever the amount of force it takes or initiate a cut isn't necessarily descriptive of cutting-ability. In other words, on a CATRA test, it's measuring actual work, and the force it takes to initiate a cut might not affect that as much as people assume.****

A lot of people speculate about how much a keen apex and low BESS score really translates into cutting-ability/sharpness on the CATRA testing, and will suggest that the reason carbide-rich steels so better on CATRA is because of micro serrations cutting more card stock even if the apex isn't as keen, which would leas to worse BESS scores, or a perceived lower level of sharpness with an anecdotal facsimile of that like the 3 finger test. Though in that respect it's hard to tell if people are allowing their subjective experience in an anecdotal test away their thoughts about the data of an objective test, rather than the other way around.

But in regards to that last sentence... While anecdotal tests may not be the most useful to generate universally comparative data, I'm not sure if it's necessarily prudent to dismiss them outright.

The other thing to consider among all of this too is that T15 isn't exactly a "low carbide" steel itself. In the Todd Simpson article he suggests that it might not be a case of "the more carbides the better" but maybe there being an optimal ratio.


**** A small tangent.... As I was writing this, I was reminded of my recent experience with the HIC Mule. There seems to be no shortage of data suggesting it's not very sharp with initial-force tests, but then people end up surprised how well it actually cuts through some type of material.
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#17

Post by Barmoley »

kennbr34 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:57 pm

The other thing to consider among all of this too is that T15 isn't exactly a "low carbide" steel itself. In the Todd Simpson article he suggests that it might not be a case of "the more carbides the better" but maybe there being an optimal ratio.
I saw this as well and even though it is possible, it is hard to believe T15 just happens to be that as compared to K294. Can't rule it out completely, but more tests of steels with different carbide volumes would need to be done. This behavior is not seen in CATRA, but CATRA is just one testing method. For example, in theory if this explanation is reasonable then 15V should loose front end sharpness in your tests even faster than K294. Of course that also might happened due to 15V chipping more or hardness being different. It would be interesting to know how hard K294 and T15 mules you have are. It could be that in your particular test this explains what you are seeing.

As far as HIC, that is a whole other animal :winking-tongue We collectively can't seem to even agree on what exactly explains steel performance in some of our tests and ceramic is very different from steel.
weeping minora
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#18

Post by weeping minora »

kennbr34 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:00 am
Barmoley wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:13 pm
Very interesting results, thank you for doing the work. I wonder if what you are experiencing is due to how these steels respond to the particular sharpening or because T15 is harder. Not sure that it is, but likely. CATRA measures wear resistance, but the dulling you are experiencing is most likely not purely due to wear. It could be that there is either micro chipping or deformation that T15 deals with better in your tests vs K294. So that front end sharpness in your tests is being lost on K294 faster due to something other than wear. There is a very common myth that steels with higher carbide volume lose front end sharpness faster than lower carbide steels, but stay in that state longer. Larrin and possibly others have shown that this is not true and that higher wear resistance steels keep any sharpness at any point longer, as long as we are talking about dulling due to wear. So everything else being the same and if you only did 1 cut on CATRA, higher wear steel would dull less. Of course cutting cardboard by hand is a different test, so dulling mechanism is a lot more complex and possibly other factors explain what you are seeing. I don't think having less carbides at the edge would explain your results if wear is the issue, if these carbides were chipping on the other hand then maybe or if K294 edge was deforming while T15 wasn't due to differences in hardness.
Well from what I can find, Spyderco's K294 is probably around 63-64 HRC. They ran the equivalent 10V and PMA11 at that hardness. Meanwhile, I can't find figures for the T15, but if you Google it it is capable of 67 HRC. In Larrin Thomas' testing, he shows that T15 and 10V are right about the same toughness for equivalent HRC. So if the K294 is 63-64 HRC, T15 is going to have to be a lot lower to be significantly tougher.

FWIW, here's a singular point of reference that I mentioned in my post above referencing the hardness of the T15 Mule; from the MT34P - CPM REX T15 Mule Team Dropping Soon! Thread, page 5:


viewtopic.php?f=15&t=95062&start=80

gx9901dx wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:33 am
I just received them today. I got the hardness for them HRC66, and factory edge quality is so good. I will order more soon.
Make Knife Grinds Thin Again.
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hollowt1pz
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Re: T15 Testing and Pondering About CATRA (BESS Data Included)

#19

Post by hollowt1pz »

I can test HIC on the tang for Rockwell hardness, kind of afraid that it's going to crack or chip out but I have the equipment (hr-150a) and am willing to give this one up. Just ask first cause it's likely going to damage the diamond indenter (~350$) or the test media, neither are life enders for me.

As far as the above discussion, what angles are your edges? I'm assuming around 30° inclusive? If so, that's probably playing into the BESS data. In my personal experience, even the same material at the same everything, BESS testing is not very scientific. It depends where you place the blade and surely at 120x, you're going to know what the edge looks like. I recommend disregarding BESS data as anything more than an initial "sharpness" datum point.

Edit: after looking at the initial knife params, your primary grind angle is very thin along with the edge - this is when differences in steel will start to be "feelable" in my personal experience.
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