You got your Ceramic Mule. How you gonna sharpen it?

[Fireman]

Why would someone buy a knife if they did not intend to sharpen it?

[yablanowitz]

Because all the cool kids have one? Maybe because the spirit of the Mule Team Project has been washed away on a tide of social media hype? Who knows.

After one broken tip and three edge chips deep enough to call for grinder work to repair, I've concluded that this one is not quite ready for my normal use. I can get an adequate edge with my usual DMT hones, but I have not acheived shaving sharp yet. It will carve wood, and seems to continue doing so without dulling, but not with the ease that makes whittling a pleasure. For now, it's back to steel for me.

[muleshaman]

I had some time yesterday to use the jende products that came in the mail. I took a before shot with my scope of the factory edge and saw a very pronounced convex micro bevel. My particular mule also has a factory bevel of 17° on one side and 18° on the other. To save time I decided to sharpen at 18° so I could hit the apex in short order and move on in progressions. All this work was done on my worksharp professional precision adjust. I started with my 45 micron diamond film and noticed a little micro chipping but the convex micro bevel was totally gone. Then I moved onto my 15 micron stone, that further refined the edge and almost completely removed the micro chipping from the 45 micron stone. Then I moved onto my 9 micron stone. That really brought the edge alive! It can push cut magazine paper, very impressive! I finished on my jende nanocoth strop loaded with .5 micron max poly concentration emulsion. I can get the HIC to pop a few hairs off! It's not quite as toothy as I'd expect a steel blade to be but I'm impressed. Especially considering I only invest about 1 hour into it (I wasn't keeping track, but it went WAY quicker than expected). I'm going to order the 6 and 3 micron diamond films and see if I can get this truly hair shaving, but so far with the results and ease of sharpening with diamond films, I think it's very doable. Pictures attached showing the factory edge, a picture of mid progression, and the final result with said products.

You got a much better factory edge to work with than most of us it seems, also looks .. as good as it can? I need to get a digital microscope for media sharing. I can see this stuff with an optical with a Camera setup but its not as easy. They're also not cheap.. unfortunately. You guys usually go with dino-lite?


If anyone here would recommend a digital microscope JUST for knife edges, well, I'd appreciate that about as much as text can share.

Here is the link to the one I use. Its battery powered and connects to my phone via Wi-Fi. This model is nice compared to a bigger model with a screen because I can hold this one in my hand while the knife is still mounted in my sharpener to see the apex.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BHQ ... UTF8&psc=1

Because ceramic doesn't make a burr, without a microscope, I really don't think you can effectively sharpen HIC if you cant see the apex.

This is the only HIC I have so I'm not sure if I got one with a good edge or not. It did have a very pronounced micro bevel like other ones ive seen. It was very easy to remove however with my 45-micron diamond film mounted to an acrylic blank.

[hollowt1pz]

I had some time yesterday to use the jende products that came in the mail. I took a before shot with my scope of the factory edge and saw a very pronounced convex micro bevel. My particular mule also has a factory bevel of 17° on one side and 18° on the other. To save time I decided to sharpen at 18° so I could hit the apex in short order and move on in progressions. All this work was done on my worksharp professional precision adjust. I started with my 45 micron diamond film and noticed a little micro chipping but the convex micro bevel was totally gone. Then I moved onto my 15 micron stone, that further refined the edge and almost completely removed the micro chipping from the 45 micron stone. Then I moved onto my 9 micron stone. That really brought the edge alive! It can push cut magazine paper, very impressive! I finished on my jende nanocoth strop loaded with .5 micron max poly concentration emulsion. I can get the HIC to pop a few hairs off! It's not quite as toothy as I'd expect a steel blade to be but I'm impressed. Especially considering I only invest about 1 hour into it (I wasn't keeping track, but it went WAY quicker than expected). I'm going to order the 6 and 3 micron diamond films and see if I can get this truly hair shaving, but so far with the results and ease of sharpening with diamond films, I think it's very doable. Pictures attached showing the factory edge, a picture of mid progression, and the final result with said products.

You got a much better factory edge to work with than most of us it seems, also looks .. as good as it can? I need to get a digital microscope for media sharing. I can see this stuff with an optical with a Camera setup but its not as easy. They're also not cheap.. unfortunately. You guys usually go with dino-lite?


If anyone here would recommend a digital microscope JUST for knife edges, well, I'd appreciate that about as much as text can share.

Here is the link to the one I use. Its battery powered and connects to my phone via Wi-Fi. This model is nice compared to a bigger model with a screen because I can hold this one in my hand while the knife is still mounted in my sharpener to see the apex.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BHQ ... UTF8&psc=1

Because ceramic doesn't make a burr, without a microscope, I really don't think you can effectively sharpen HIC if you cant see the apex.

This is the only HIC I have so I'm not sure if I got one with a good edge or not. It did have a very pronounced micro bevel like other ones ive seen. It was very easy to remove however with my 45-micron diamond film mounted to an acrylic blank.

I've been in the hospital ladies and gentlemen, apologies for my absence here and lack of information. At first they thought pneumonitis then double lung pneumonia but I'm okay do NOT worry about me, for a 53 year old man that worked in the metal industry his entire life, I got lucky.

Jason Ward has a lot to say about this material. Testing on CATRA is pointless data wise, he ran it with phone book paper and that's.. more for this material according to him and also useless. Chipping is a major problem and I apparently have lost about an ⅛th of an inch of edge that had to be blended with the 3dps grinds. Or is it 2.5, I don't know this **** he does. But there's a lot he liked about it and a lot he didn't like but expected so. Full review on all that stuff with media and whatnot to come.

[shunsui]

Picked up a cheap digital microscope and have been playing with it for a couple of days. Here's the best pic I've gotten so far of the HIC mule edge. Quite a bit of crud on it even though I just wiped it off. I think the ceramic might take a static charge easily.



This is the microscope:
https://www.amazon.com/Ninyoon-Microsco ... B0CCNZBCM8

[hewn7]

I picked up 2 on the latest email drop.

One I have free hand sharpened on resin bonded diamond, and tried stropping on various diamond compounds on leather or mdf. It's workably sharp but will not shave. I find I am more variable in my free hand angle with this material so I have a bit of a convex going on the edge. It does cut wood well though when messing around in the back yard with my boys.

The second I put on the tormek with a 600 grit CBN wheel at 17 dps and removed all the factory edge (edge trailing) then stropped on 1050 grit diamond on a leather belt on a KOBG work sharp. this shaves leg hair just fine now. I was really light on the pressure on the CBN. Total time for this was less than 10 minutes. Can i get it tree-toping hair sharp or push cutting paper towel? not so far but I've not spent a ton of time on it, nor do I have a cbn or diamond wheel finer than 600 for the tormek.

May pick up some of the diamond film belts for my 2x72 and try sharpening on them using an 8" or 12" rubber wheel at low speed and see how they respond to that.

[sal]

Hi Hewn,

Welcome to our forum. Thanx for your input.

sal

[VeraX_Knives]

I picked up 2 on the latest email drop.

One I have free hand sharpened on resin bonded diamond, and tried stropping on various diamond compounds on leather or mdf. It's workably sharp but will not shave. I find I am more variable in my free hand angle with this material so I have a bit of a convex going on the edge. It does cut wood well though when messing around in the back yard with my boys.

The second I put on the tormek with a 600 grit CBN wheel at 17 dps and removed all the factory edge (edge trailing) then stropped on 1050 grit diamond on a leather belt on a KOBG work sharp. this shaves leg hair just fine now. I was really light on the pressure on the CBN. Total time for this was less than 10 minutes. Can i get it tree-toping hair sharp or push cutting paper towel? not so far but I've not spent a ton of time on it, nor do I have a cbn or diamond wheel finer than 600 for the tormek.

May pick up some of the diamond film belts for my 2x72 and try sharpening on them using an 8" or 12" rubber wheel at low speed and see how they respond to that.

Your paper towel test (my own personal one with all of the actual scientific equipment I have frankly) isn't going to work with this material. It's.. I'm thinking about how I should explain this. You have the sharpening pretty much exactly what I did with the same results.

Okay so I guess let's try this. You know how carbides are ceramics and harder than the surrounding matrix. Well when you hip these things, they all transfer to the crystalline structure under pressure. So It's why they scientifically get softer with each impact. (A very little bit not worth mentioning honestly). So you're ending up with.. instead of a mixture of graphite ferrite and FeCx/ledeburite as you would get with steels, it's homogeneous on a crystallography level which is all of the physics stuff that.. is boring honestly. So don't exactly expect it to cut like steel, if you have ever used beta titanium alloys I would say it's.. similar in the end use result of how it cuts, nothing else obviously. Very similar. Just much harder than ti. I believe if I remember correctly that this was created in the medical or orthodontic world, it's really nothing new it's just becoming cheap enough to produce and profit from nowadays. Also, I can't say anything for certain but I'm rather certain that this is the company that they are using although the material is likely not exactly what you find available. It's a company called harcane. If you want to do some research on your own, I don't believe that I'm breaking any rules by giving rather known information like that (or so I've been told, can be wrong cause I don't trust others lol!) and.. I suppose I could make the argument that someone here may find that helpful.

I have to say that I am intentionally not saying certain things that I think because of how.. my text is read over the internet where I don't spend the time to type it. The owners of the forums don't really like my "I'm going to say what I think and I seriously don't care I'm a pessimist not optimist. Plus, it's just going to get buried let's accept reality.

I do however truly think it's not a horrible material. Have I seen worse? Yes. Better? Also yes. But I'll end it there as apparently my opinion is rather valuable to .. certain people .. for some reason that honestly escapes me. I think it's psychological but I can't know that. I'm just going to be straight up honest with everyone here - people in real life that are my friends don't even exactly "get" me. So sal and anyone else who I happen to have offended, not intentionally obviously, but how do you..... Actually do constructive criticism without the criticism part I don't know but I know that is not exactly how my text reads. However that IS what it means lol. If I had the time to be a professor - yeah no I wouldn't do that one either but just bridging the gap between.. people of different knowledge levels on the explicit and implicit types of knowledge. I have never claimed to be an expert at anything tacitly. Ever. Nor the other ones to be frank if anything it's PCs and human psychology and sociology which ya no I'm not an expert my wife however could be considered that.

I really respect ya sal and I just.. like I can't PM you so how do we get the mutual respect without being real with one another.

For the record, the ops core deal wasn't something that I was personally complaining about but other friends of mine have. That's all I meant by you're losing people sal. I never said that you weren't gaining them either infact I believe that I did say exactly that. I don't need to be a business genius to know what will work and not. If you are honestly going to sit here and tell me that you.. did all of this ceramic stuff for a dive knife. I'm only assuming that you knew this wouldn't work as a folder. That's science and engineering which I.. believe and would assume that you are smarter and better at than me. I think we both know that I wouldn't say that if I didn't actually believe it lol. So I'll just be straight up with you Sal. You do remind me of my own grandfather.. eeriely similarly. So with what you know about my life and whatnot, I think maybe you can "get" that psychological part of.. Well I couldn't say it any better than this way. If I had an option to spend the same time and amount of money to learn what I have from say, you personally (Your worst nightmare! ), I would give up the sheet of cardstock. Heck I'd burn it. That's me. Different. Unique. A**h*le. Cocky. (I'm still 33 give me a break at least I know and admit it lol). You said smart, other people say that and yes if I'm being honest Sal people use me for my brain. That's been my entire life honestly. So it's really not that I think that.. idk I could do something better or someone said that I tried to sell steel here lol... YEAH FOR FREAKING FREE MINUS SHIPPING COSTS FOR PEOPLE HERE!? That's me being.. me. Jesus. I couldn't have expected how some people read it. You have to always remember that with me, I expect other people to think how I do. Totally unrealistic but factual.

Y'all wanna know what I've made since May 2021 making knives? I honestly don't know but it's definitely not black. probably lost about 1,000$. I do it for a hobby. I'm 33 and I.. didn't win the lottery or grow up with a lot of money however I do know computer programming I've been doing it since before ui/uxs existed, so yes I have been programming truly private videogame cheats since.. sometime in 2005 I think May. (I'm the boss of MS-DOS. If anyone else is old enough for that one lol, early 2000s video meme) If anyone doesn't realize how much money is in that. Well if you know how to code CPP and know windows kernel - start doing this. A Belgian friend of mine made 980k in one year. No joke lol. My financial recommendations for the forum..... oh okay sal permission to shoot me in the flesh and make some pain. I'll take it. Just no explosives!

-Jason

[hewn7]

I’ll offer up that if anyone has a “piece” of one that’s around 1 cm2 I’d be willing to image the edge under our SEM at my company:

[VeraX_Knives]

I’ll offer up that if anyone has a “piece” of one that’s around 1 cm2 I’d be willing to image the edge under our SEM at my company:

Already have ask @hollowt1pz.

Although if you want to do different finishes and whatnot uh. Yeah I technically could cut a piece for sem imaging and mail it out at cost to me it's not like I don't literally have them sitting around my garage collecting metal shavings I just gotta find the right chunk! Already broke 8 of em. Intentionally. Hahaha

[hewn7]

I'm open to whatever people (users, spyderco, etc) would find beneficial. If people wanted to look at the edge/apex after use on different abrasives and grits it's something I could certainly do. My company is a nano materials manufacturer so I'm usually dorking around on the SEM a few days a week anyway.

Side note spent some time (5 minutes?) working the 600 cbn / 1500 diamond mule on an 8k diamond paste smooth leather strop it's now very close to tree topping leg hair.

[Steveng]

I'm open to whatever people (users, spyderco, etc) would find beneficial. If people wanted to look at the edge/apex after use on different abrasives and grits it's something I could certainly do. My company is a nano materials manufacturer so I'm usually dorking around on the SEM a few days a week anyway.

Side note spent some time (5 minutes?) working the 600 cbn / 1500 diamond mule on an 8k diamond paste smooth leather strop it's now very close to tree topping leg hair.

Did you reprofile? The angle seems to be quite high, though i did not measure it.

[Steeltoez83]

[hewn7]

Did you reprofile? The angle seems to be quite high, though i did not measure it.
[/quote]

I set set the angle to 17 DPS on the tormek. It was fairly close to what was on from the factory, perhaps a bit shallower. I did remove the micro bevel at the edge which was present from the factory.

[VeraX_Knives]

You cannot expect that to cut a paper towel. The edge beyond what sem imaging can do matters it's the material Jesus Christ guys please figure this out so I don't have to write half a book on the differences between metals and ceramics.

As the resident MSE nerd with a degree from Carnegie melon, trust me they are two different things. I'm sure the internet can explain this I'm a poor teacher, but y'all are expecting.. 'common sense' physics which isn't exactly how physics works, it's layers of that "common sense' that changes it to be.. not 'common' at the base.

This material will bite then tear the standing paper towel test. I use them for steel, it's a good test I won't lie, you just can't use it for this stuff and expect it to work the same way.

[burlyspyder]

Vera,
I think you assume too little of this community. Having a material science engineering degree is, frankly, not that uncommon in areas of niche metallurgical discussion. A sure-fire way to inhibit constructive dialog is to assume superiority, whilst potentially insulting the audience.

Instead of stating you possess some sort of superior technical knowledge about materials, name-dropping schools, and being dismissive of others, I personally invite you to share your technical insights, experimental data, and experience as a subjective data point. That way, the community can review, digest, and respond. This type of communication amongst peers is the foundation of the scientific process. You proclaim to have mastery over the science, so please share your data/insights/experience in order to contribute to the greater understanding, and ultimately, progress.

Cheers,
-burly

[VeraX_Knives]

Vera,
I think you assume too little of this community. Having a material science engineering degree is, frankly, not that uncommon in areas of niche metallurgical discussion. A sure-fire way to inhibit constructive dialog is to assume superiority, whilst potentially insulting the audience.

Instead of stating you possess some sort of superior technical knowledge about materials, name-dropping schools, and being dismissive of others, I personally invite you to share your technical insights, experimental data, and experience as a subjective data point. That way, the community can review, digest, and respond. This type of communication amongst peers is the foundation of the scientific process. You proclaim to have mastery over the science, so please share your data/insights/experience in order to contribute to the greater understanding, and ultimately, progress.

Cheers,
-burly

I insult people. If you can't take an insult stay out of my way and life thank you. I wear a hat that says "f*** your feelings". Nuff said.

[Steveng]

You cannot expect that to cut a paper towel. The edge beyond what sem imaging can do matters it's the material Jesus Christ guys please figure this out so I don't have to write half a book on the differences between metals and ceramics.

Nobody asked you to, And I don't care if you do or not. I will not be reading any more of your ridiculous posts. I do understand that being so absolutely brilliant is quite a burden. I guess it is just something you will need to learn to live with.

[VeraX_Knives]

You don't have to like me. Unlike the rest of the internet I'm not going to care. There's a block feature on PHP for a reason and yes I'm sorry but I do have a brain that works rather quicker than most people's. What that means about what I know however is.. totally different I don't personally believe that I'm very smart comparativly. Intelligence is different and ya with how my brain works I am different than normal people sorry.

[ykspydiefan]

Vera,
I think you assume too little of this community. Having a material science engineering degree is, frankly, not that uncommon in areas of niche metallurgical discussion. A sure-fire way to inhibit constructive dialog is to assume superiority, whilst potentially insulting the audience.

Instead of stating you possess some sort of superior technical knowledge about materials, name-dropping schools, and being dismissive of others, I personally invite you to share your technical insights, experimental data, and experience as a subjective data point. That way, the community can review, digest, and respond. This type of communication amongst peers is the foundation of the scientific process. You proclaim to have mastery over the science, so please share your data/insights/experience in order to contribute to the greater understanding, and ultimately, progress.

Cheers,
-burly

I insult people. If you can't take an insult stay out of my way and life thank you. I wear a hat that says "f*** your feelings". Nuff said.

So, you want people to figure it out so you do not have to write a book.... Well, be instructive instead of insulting. Insulting pushes people away and causes them to want to learn less, from you. And, care less about your opinion. As you can objectively see.