Spyderco Forums

I like the kick like on the Endura, nice and big. Starting to appreciate the choils. I always felt unsafe with my fingers that near the blade but Spyderco jimping helps lock you in

Choil

I voted choil honestly just because the 2 knives i find most comfortable in my hand (stretch2xl & Atlantic) have them. Even with knives with kicks i tend to choke up like its a choil.

My favorite blade profile is the Native Chief and it has a choil, but I prefer not to have a choil, so I voted kick. I'll never use the choil for self defense, it would be too dangerous.

Anything works for me. But if I have to thrust into something I'd prefer a really sticky G-10, or I'd cover the handle with a resin impregnated with a high grit. I've looked into solutions, just have not purchased anything yet.

Bolster wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:42 pm

Choil be praised. But to argue the concept: Doesn't the GB2 style of "other" keep your index a fair distance away from the heel of the blade? Honestly I am more attracted to the GB1. The index finger cutout is in the handle (nice!) but you can still get right up on the blade.

It's a loss for sure. Ideally, you are right behind the edge, with no gap like the GB2. I guess something you give up for all the good of the GB2 and I'm fine with that. As far as the grip goes, it's pretty neutral but still has one finger groove. A little deeper and it would feel more locked in, but good as is.

Vivi has a sketch of a Manix 2 XL with no blade choil, but maintains the profile behind the choil with the edge coming all the way to the handle. It looks awesome and I would love to see something like that.

I love the Polestar as well. That would be in your forward group. The neutral grip is incredibly comfortable. However, I have come to appreciate more and more an indexing point for the first finger.

JSumm wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:40 pm

However, I have come to appreciate more and more an indexing point for the first finger.

Exactly so! Same here. The more I'm interested in knives, the more important the ergos around the index finger have become. I'm at a loss as to why, but I'm finding the same as you. I'm finding a particular design will work great, or not well at all, depending on just the placement of the index finger. The interest in "index finger placement & protection" largely motivated this poll. For example, my appreciation for the Manix has grown over time, since it "indexes" well (ha! pun!) with either a forward or a back grip, and is über safe--a little unusual to have that combination. Same for the Native Chief. Obviously smaller knives (like the Chap) don't have the real estate for comfortable back grips, and necessitate choil grips.

I would like to see more "finger choil moved back into the handle" designs like the GB1 and the Kapara.

riclaw wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:44 pm

Depends on the pattern. Spyderco never forgot that a folding knife can, well, fold. The choil provides that extra level of safety while still allowing the user to get right up next to the blade.

But this is what kick and "forward" provide too, don't they?

Ryder wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 4:14 pm

The choil allows the folded knife to be much smaller and compact and the open knife to be more secure and ergonomic in hand. This is pretty much a no brainer for me.

True only for very small knives like Chaparral or Dfly, right?
Those would no longer offer a four finger grip without a choil.

On knives like the Para 3 or Native 5 the choil actually makes "the folded knife" "unnecessarily"LARGE in relation to the cutting edge you get.
("Unnecessarily" of course only if one wants a good four finger grip and a lot of edge. If that is the case, the available handle length would already allow for a good four finger grip if it had no choil which also would offer more edge).
So in a way Para 3, Native... are "small knives that carry big".

Also true in larger folders: I mean why do you think a folderd Shaman (with choil) is ",much smaller and more compact" than a folded Bodacious (no choil, similar length)?
The Shaman just has less cutting edge, so again in a way is "unnecessarily" large for the edge length - ?

I voted „kick“, because for me that is just the right distance between my fingers and the edge. A choil is nice in longer knives, but imo a Native does not need one, especially such a large one.

Granted, "kick" still is the least favorite in the poll so far compared to "choil" and "forward".

I am pleasantly surprised though how many votes "kick" still gets - normally it seems like the voices who find the kick just "a waste of space" and "a choil much better" "Delica/Endura would be improved if they also got a choil" are rather loud around here.

But this poll shows that there must be quite some out there who value (like me) the distinct advantages of a kick (choil and forward have their own too, no doubt!)

I honestly enjoy them all, been using two different forward designs lately but I can make them all work for me just fine. Variety is the spice…..

benben wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:35 am

I honestly enjoy them all, been using two different forward designs lately but I can make them all work for me just fine. Variety is the spice…..

Something along that lines could be my answer as well... only if I absolutely have to give a vote it is "kick" to me.

But I do enjoy other approaches a lot!

As said: My Chap just has to have a choil due to its small size to work so well, the Stretch 1 (disco´ed) has an absolute perfect choil and still a lot of cutting edge for the size, and the Goddard with its "short kick plus kind of choke up area" before the guard is great too - just three examples.

Closer look at the Goddard, a very distinct design choice in concerning the topic of this discussion (pic below from back when I got the knife, don´t have a better one right now):

I actually find that solution very useful:

1.) Very short kick, that sacrifices very little amount of edge
2.) Very pronounced guard and a good distance to the cutting edge, if an extreme level of safety is desired
3.) Long, FLAT "choke up area" behind the short kick - roomy enough and very comfortable to choke up on
4-) - but more important to me: Gripping the knife on that "flat choke up area" offers great control and leverage, because there is a lot of "meat" beneath the index finger compared to the fingers behind it, so the index finger is in no risk to "float" , but most of the power is transferred just with that finger close to the edge, and
5.) Gripping the knife on that "flat choke up area" is also still very safe, cause the whole hand is locked in by the MIDDLE finger behind the pronounced guard.

...Actually, at the moment, my absolute favorite design for that particular area

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 11:47 pm

Ryder wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 05, 2024 4:14 pm

The choil allows the folded knife to be much smaller and compact and the open knife to be more secure and ergonomic in hand. This is pretty much a no brainer for me.

True only for very small knives like Chaparral or Dfly, right?
Those would no longer offer a four finger grip without a choil.

On knives like the Para 3 or Native 5 the choil actually makes "the folded knife" "unnecessarily"LARGE in relation to the cutting edge you get.
("Unnecessarily" of course only if one wants a good four finger grip and a lot of edge. If that is the case, the available handle length would already allow for a good four finger grip if it had no choil which also would offer more edge).
So in a way Para 3, Native... are "small knives that carry big".

Also true in larger folders: I mean why do you think a folderd Shaman (with choil) is ",much smaller and more compact" than a folded Bodacious (no choil, similar length)?
The Shaman just has less cutting edge, so again in a way is "unnecessarily" large for the edge length - ?

We have been backpacking and hiking for so many decades that my choice in edged tools has refined to smaller. In the ‘80s I carried the original Al Mar SERE lockback with micarta scales. I learned that bigger and heavier doesn’t particularly mean stronger or more useful. It just means heavier. By the end of the ’80s the original Spyderco CoPilot was clipped to my pocket. All of my fixed blades are small and they are definitely stronger than a folder but with sheath they are bulkier and heavier.
Our wilderness mountains and canyons where we walk into several times a week from home are steep and rocky so weight really matters. I don’t find a big knife more useful or believe that it will somehow magically save us. So you are correct that I speak from the perspective of smaller folders. My other standard equipment includes the essentials. All of the designs are useable but I’m impressed with the choil designs in Spyderco’s smaller designs that act much bigger than their size suggests.
Here is a then and now image where ergonomics and weight have been incredibly and skillfully transformed to almost defy physics. The rest here will have to decide what’s best for the big folders. The mighty Dragonfly can and will do things I hardly could imagine until it did them. The Dragonfly is so secure in hand with grip and palming that I carry it everywhere and use it for practical applications without really thinking about it.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 06, 2024 4:10 am

Granted, "kick" still is the least favorite in the poll so far compared to "choil" and "forward".

I am pleasantly surprised though how many votes "kick" still gets - normally it seems like the voices who find the kick just "a waste of space" and "a choil much better" "Delica/Endura would be improved if they also got a choil" are rather loud around here.

But this poll shows that there must be quite some out there who value (like me) the distinct advantages of a kick (choil and forward have their own too, no doubt!)

I wonder if some of the poll participants (like myself) would be happy with either 'kick' or 'forward' - ie they'll take anything but a choil due to its impact on ergonomics and/or edge length?

I voted 'kick' because I've only ever tried the Tenacious in the 'forward' line and I missed being able to drop the blade onto the index finger like you can with something like a Salt 2. Of course I've not tried one of the newish handle forward backlocks like the Leafjumper.

I like them all, they all have different functional characteristics, so it depends on the knife. I assume we’re just talking about folders here ? Because I generally prefer my ideal mid to bigger fixed blades to have a forward guard/ricasso, or edge that goes way far down. But yet I think the street beat is a flawless edc/tactical/hunting knife design, and that knife technically has a finger choil? And I think ideally a true hard use folding knife should have a good finger guard and edge that goes all the way back. E.g a lil tenperance, & bodacious.
For locking edc folders with designs on the slender compact side (which is how I like edc size folders to be) my favorite ones have a finger choil, I find it works very well. Imo, The forward grip pinch grip control feels very locked in for precise work which is most of what normal daily cutting chores almost everyone experiences in life. This is why the folding locking edc knife is my favorite category of knife. Just a very personal and useful tool.

I vote choil, because even on knives that don't have them, I find myself reaching for it. And have to remind myself before I cut my finger.

I like being able to grip the knife closer to the edge. I feel like I have more fine control. On knives where I have to grip further back, I feel I have less control.

Only exception is SD knives. No choil and thick tips preferred there.

No matter what style, finger biters are a big drawback. I was very happy to see models like the rockjumper be handle forward but still safe for fingers should there be a failure (mechanical or operator error). I don't want to have to high-four my friends.

Farmer wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:51 am

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 06, 2024 4:10 am

I wonder if some of the poll participants (like myself) would be happy with either 'kick' or 'forward' - ie they'll take anything but a choil due to its impact on ergonomics and/or edge length?

I voted 'kick' because I've only ever tried the Tenacious in the 'forward' line and I missed being able to drop the blade onto the index finger like you can with something like a Salt 2. Of course I've not tried one of the newish handle forward backlocks like the Leafjumper.

Well, with linerlock knives in my experience it makes a huge difference for "finger safety" wether they offer a choil or not.

The Tenacious absolutely CAN be dropped with its hidden ricasso on thumb or index finger (see the two old vids I made some time ago) but you have to put the finger pretty forward on the handle to make it work. So there is a high chance that this goes wrong if you don´t focus on doing it right

https://streamable.com/pa4hvi

https://streamable.com/tdklrj

With the LeafJumper / RockJumper it is a different story. The hidden ricasso / kick is so long, that it is really hard to mess up (so that ricasso WILL hit your index finger if you close the knife with the corresponding method).

I miss being young, stupid and sure of everything. Nowadays I can hardly answer simple questions like these..
The stats tell me that I prefer choils, I'm not totally convinced by the numbers because I know that I like a good forward design as well. And I don't mind a kick. Or other, even.. yeah, it's hard sometimes.

I can't deny the fact that my favorite knives have choils, so my vote will have to reflect that, but there's also a bunch to choose from. As a counterbalance to that vote it's worth mentioning that when I'm opening a new reveal catalog, it's not more designs with a choil I'm hoping to see. I would really like for a new forward design to come along and sway me over.

I have voted “Forward” but only because the Bodacious has all my attention at the moment.

Honestly, though, all the many Spydies I have with kicks, choils and other I like more than enough to keep.