Vote: Kick? Choil? Forward? Other?

[Wartstein]

...
Those of you who are Spyderco historians: did Spyderco’s evolutions tend to evolve from kick to choil to handle foward? I’m not saying in every instance, I’m asking overall large trends. Were early Spydercos mostly kicks? Did Spyderco start designing more choils at some point? And are we seeing an evolution into handle foward designs now?

I don’t mean to bring down The Wrath of Wartstein for asking the question. This is not to imply that kicks are primitive or in any way substandard (though they don’t appear to be as popular) or that handle forward designs are superior (I don’t even own one yet—I don’t have a dog in that fight). It’s simply a question about how Spyderco designs are changing over time. Is there a trend here?

... I know you´re just kidding anyway, but still: No way you could stirr my "wrath"!

As said: Not a "hot topic" at all for me and for most, and I do think that for a vast majority who like to choke up on their knives a choil SHOULD be an improvement over a kick as for those who like to be close to the edge but still "safe" forward should be an improvement over a kick!

All I am saying is: "Kick" is not that bad and has enough distinct advantages so that in a more or less normally distibuted poll result SOME should vote for kick and are not completely crazy when doing so - but it is completely understandble that the "kick folks" are in a clear minority.

/ As for "kick not being that popular" though one more thought: If you look at the lineup of Spydercos models, there are not too many with a kick, right? Primarily Endura, Endela, Delica - at least the first and the third should be big sellers of course, but if people prefer other features on knives (and more th PM2, Manix, Native, Sage.. type) they most likely will have no real experience with "kicks"

[Ramonade]

I like for the primary grind to take into account the whole edge length and future sharpenings. Like on a Large Sebenza.

I guess I'm more in the "other" choice ? Haven't voted yet :)

[DavidNM]

A big fan of the choil here. It gives me more control over the cut.

[Cl1ff]

I generally prefer being close to the edge.
Choils and handles which approach the blade’s cutting edge accomplish this differently.

I often want a robust grip with a strong structure that leverages the close edge during powerful cuts. For this reason, I like handles that come right to the edge or edges that come right up to the handle. The “Handle Forward” lockbacks are examples of the former.

Designs with kicks, or ricassos, also allow me to gain more leverage relatively close to the edge.

Choils typically pull the structure I like to make use of, the handle, further back.

I can control the cutting edges of any of these pocket knife designs with no issues, so I don’t need a choil for that purpose.

I don’t dislike Spyderco’s choils, though. They can be useful, comfortable, and are a versatile design. Best characterized (imo), by what they do for the ergonomics of smaller knives with smaller handles like the Dragonfly, Lil’ Native, or Chaparral.

One particular design that I think is relevant to discuss is the finger guard.

I’ll try to come back to this to edit in my ideas on those.

[JayHenMac]

I was torn on what I prefer so I did an experiment when I saw this poll. I lined up a handful of models with different handles on the bench open and ready to use. I grabbed a bunch of boxes and started making cuts. The goal was to determine how I instinctively grab and hold a knife. Grab a knife, make a cut. Grab another, make another cut. Turns out I use choils less than I thought I did. I still use one, when available, while making smaller or more precise cuts. I found that even when a choil is available I tend to grab the handle behind the choil. I gotta vote for "kick" because it's what I gravitate to.

[RustyIron]

I find a choil to be necessary on a tiny knife like the Dragonfly or Native 5. I never use the choil on the Manix 2, but integrating a kick might negatively affect the aesthetic appeal of the knife. I'm happy the way it is.

[Wartstein]

I find a choil to be necessary on a tiny knife like the Dragonfly or Native 5. I never use the choil on the Manix 2, but integrating a kick might negatively affect the aesthetic appeal of the knife. I'm happy the way it is.

To me honestly the situation on the DFly and the Native is as different as it can be:

- Folders in the DFly size profit the most from a choil: No way the actual (FRN/G10) handle length could offer a four finger grip, regardless how it would be shaped cause it is just too short (even if it had no handle part of a choil)
So a choil is mandatory for a a full grip and a more than perfect solution!

- Folders in the Native size on the other hand are the least suited for a choil imo.
The actual hande length (FRN/G10 part) as such would easily be long enough to offer a good four finger grip AND then also a longer cutting edge if the knife had no choil...
What a choil does in that particular size range: Shortens the grip area behind the choil so that it is NOT long enough for a four finger grip anymore (so larger hands have to choke up), PLUS shortens the cutting edge due to the blade part of the choil.
In other words: The Native in the exact same length but with no choil would offer a still generous grip area AND more cutting edge...

- On folders longer than a Native a choil can be nice again, cause there it makes for (at least) TWO good four finger grip options: Behind the choil AND choked up.

[JSumm]

I find a choil to be necessary on a tiny knife like the Dragonfly or Native 5. I never use the choil on the Manix 2, but integrating a kick might negatively affect the aesthetic appeal of the knife. I'm happy the way it is.

I find the area behind the choil on the Native a bit too tight. The neutral grip is nice on a larger handle, but on that size, it is nice to have something lock you in. This is one where I like the choil and I find it personally appealing on the Native 5. Locks you in, but still folds up to an incredibly small package. This is where I think blade choils are nice. I would assume you want a small knife folded up if you are going for one in this size range. Opened up, it turns into a much larger knife.

[Wartstein]

I find a choil to be necessary on a tiny knife like the Dragonfly or Native 5. I never use the choil on the Manix 2, but integrating a kick might negatively affect the aesthetic appeal of the knife. I'm happy the way it is.

I find the area behind the choil on the Native a bit too tight. The neutral grip is nice on a larger handle, but on that size, it is nice to have something lock you in. This is one where I like the choil and I find it personally appealing on the Native 5. Locks you in, but still folds up to an incredibly small package. This is where I think blade choils are nice. I would assume you want a small knife folded up if you are going for one in this size range. Opened up, it turns into a much larger knife.

Just out of interest: You´re talking about the Manix or the Native?

Cause for me the Native 5 is a really small knife when opened in comparison to its closed size (not a bad or good thing, just saying).

As explained in my previous post:
On the particular Native 5 size the choil means that the actually not that short handle still offers not a real grip option behind that choil, cause due to the shortened grip area on the handle that the choil creates one almost has to choke up
Plus: The choil makes for an actually pretty short cutting edge that would fit into a much smaller knife - so all in all: Native 5 = a small knife that carries big (in other words: The Native 5 without a choil would offer a longer cutting edge and a good sized grip area on the actual handle - so also give that one good four finger grip like the choiled Native offers, but with a lot more edge.)

[Bolster]

...so all in all: Native 5 = a small knife that carries big (in other words: The Native 5 without a choil would offer a longer cutting edge and a good sized grip area on the actual handle - so also give that one good four finger grip like the choiled Native offers, but with a lot more edge.)

^ Gotta agree here. The ricasso & choil on the Native 5 seems to eat an extra large helping of edge.

[JSumm]

I find a choil to be necessary on a tiny knife like the Dragonfly or Native 5. I never use the choil on the Manix 2, but integrating a kick might negatively affect the aesthetic appeal of the knife. I'm happy the way it is.

I find the area behind the choil on the Native a bit too tight. The neutral grip is nice on a larger handle, but on that size, it is nice to have something lock you in. This is one where I like the choil and I find it personally appealing on the Native 5. Locks you in, but still folds up to an incredibly small package. This is where I think blade choils are nice. I would assume you want a small knife folded up if you are going for one in this size range. Opened up, it turns into a much larger knife.

Just out of interest: You´re talking about the Manix or the Native?

Cause for me the Native 5 is a really small knife when opened in comparison to its closed size (not a bad or good thing, just saying).

As explained in my previous post:
On the particular Native 5 size the choil means that the actually not that short handle still offers not a real grip option behind that choil, cause due to the shortened grip area on the handle that the choil creates one almost has to choke up
Plus: The choil makes for an actually pretty short cutting edge that would fit into a much smaller knife - so all in all: Native 5 = a small knife that carries big (in other words: The Native 5 without a choil would offer a longer cutting edge and a good sized grip area on the actual handle - so also give that one good four finger grip like the choiled Native offers, but with a lot more edge.)

Native 5. I assume people want a smaller knife in pocket if they are getting a Native 5. With a blade choil and the knife in the open position, it is bigger grip wise then its closed profile would suggest. I actually thought that was one of many of the blade choil design's attributes that Sal has mentioned in the past. Closed up the knife can be smaller?

[DSH007]

Depends on the design for me.. obviously, a choil works best on smaller knives.. and I do really like various knives featuring each of the choices.. but generally..if you put a gun to my head and told me to pick one.. I most prefer handle forward designs, be they from Spyderco or other makers..

[RustyIron]

The Native 5 without a choil would offer a longer cutting edge and a good sized grip area on the actual handle

That is true. But for me, and maybe for the designers, there is another consideration. The main reason for the pointy blade is not slicing cardboard and wet rope. It's for poking things with extreme prejudice--mainly some dirtbag who wishes to do me harm. That's why I like the Spydie Hump so much: It prevents the knife from slipping backward in your hand. The Native 5 doesn't have a hump. The ventral features of the handle, namely the choil, serve the same purpose as the hump. With neither hump nor choil, thrusting with such a knife would be similar to stabbing an enemy with a greased banana. The Manix is interesting in that not only does it have the dorsal hump, but has finger grooves on the ventral side, regardless of the grip used.

[Bill1170]

I voted for forward because I prefer a full handle grip to a finger choil grip. However, many knives I really like have either a kick or a choil. To wit: Delica Endela Endura, Stretch Paramilitary 2 Manix. Choils make sense on little knives, but I seldom carry anything smaller than a Delica.

[capt.carl]

Big fan of edge all the way to handle. Maximize that blade length and makes it much more comfortable for my hand while giving me similar controllability to a choil.
Designs like the resilience, tenacious, carribean, spydiechef, swayback, etc

[Netherend]

…
The stats tell me that I prefer choils, I'm not totally convinced by the numbers because I know that I like a good forward design as well. And I don't mind a kick. Or other, even.. yeah, it's hard sometimes.

I can't deny the fact that my favorite knives have choils, so my vote will have to reflect that, but there's also a bunch to choose from. As a counterbalance to that vote it's worth mentioning that when I'm opening a new reveal catalog, it's not more designs with a choil I'm hoping to see. I would really like for a new forward design to come along and sway me over.

I share a similar opinion. I really enjoy how well Spyderco’s finger choils lock the knife in hand but also have that small kick that prevents your finger from sliding forward on to the blade edge. Most of my favorite Spyderco knives have finger choils however I have really grown to love blades like the Pacific salt, Endela, Delica and Caribbean. Sometimes a cut is safer with your fingers further away from the material you are cutting(I.e. vinyl or plastic that can be sharp when cut)
The most important traits for me are safety and control when operating the knife.

[Wartstein]

......
I can't deny the fact that my favorite knives have choils, so my vote will have to reflect that, but there's also a bunch to choose from. ....

You are touching an interesting point here concerning the poll itself I tried to express before.

(But firstly and again: The following is NOT meant to be a "defense of the kick" - I have no real dog in this race, just slightly prefer the kick and think it makes total sense that more people will choose a choil than a kick!)

So... when people find that more of their favorite knives have choils than kicks, this might also reflect the situation that there just ARE a lot more "choil" - Spydies to choose from than "kick"-Spydies.

"Kick" is basically limited to backlocks, and there mostly to Delica, Endura, Endela (plus perhaps Assist, Civilian (?), Goddard, and some more I might not think of right now).

While "choil" can be had in many other platforms, locktypes, handle materials, and so on

So as soon as one happens to prefer another locktype than the backlock or another platform than the Endura family or another factory than Seki or is not into FRN (the non FRN "kick" versions are rare) and so on: They can´t go "kick" and they can´t gather real experience with this design feature.

"Choil" though can be had in many often very different platforms.

So purely from a statistical point of view it is very likely that in a collection more favorite pieces will have a choil rather than a kick and/or people come to prefer a "choil" knife cause they can be had in so many different variants, so that it is more likely that one of those will fit general preferences.
/
To put this into perspective again though:
It is also not unlikely that it is just the other way round: More Spydies have a choil than a kick, exactly BECAUSE customers/users prefer the former.

[horzuff]

I'm fine with pretty much every option apart from the kick. I most prefer handle forward for edge/handle ratio but a finger choil or a small notch/choil are fine as well