MT40P – HIC Mule Team Dropping Soon!

[tcarltonw]

Will I destroy my diamonds on this blunt piece of ceramic? I have no clue. Should I even try?

Yes, we all should. That's what Mule Team is about.

[Davidspeed13]

I’ve seen where people are talking about using the HIC Mule as a dive knife. I’m not sure how great of an idea that is, unless the diver has another knife made from a tougher material as a backup. While the corrosion resistance of HIC is undoubtedly extreme, dive knifes need to be able to stand up to prying and making twisting cuts. While HIC is supposed to be much tougher than previous ceramic knives, I’m not sure that I’d trust it being tough enough in an emergency.

H1, H2, LC200N, titanium, and some other materials used to make dependable dive knives are not necessarily great at holding an edge, but are tough enough to withstand prying and twisting cuts.

[yablanowitz]

Will I destroy my diamonds on this blunt piece of ceramic? I have no clue. Should I even try?

The diamonds are far harder than this ceramic could possibly be. The matrix holding those diamonds is not. If you trust the abrasive to do the job in its own time, use VERY light pressure and take your time, it will get sharp. Maybe not as sharp as a steel blade, but it will get useably sharp. If you try to hurry by increasing pressure to "make it cut faster", it will most likely chip the ceramic and strip the diamonds right off the backing, ruining your hones and failing to sharpen the blade. Whether you should try or not is up to you. I will say that my DMTs are getting the job done. Mine isn't up to shaving yet, and probably never will be, but it is handling other cutting jobs just fine.

[Toker]

I’ve seen where people are talking about using the HIC Mule as a dive knife. I’m not sure how great of an idea that is, unless the diver has another knife made from a tougher material as a backup. While the corrosion resistance of HIC is undoubtedly extreme, dive knifes need to be able to stand up to prying and making twisting cuts. While HIC is supposed to be much tougher than previous ceramic knives, I’m not sure that I’d trust it being tough enough in an emergency.

H1, H2, LC200N, titanium, and some other materials used to make dependable dive knives are not necessarily great at holding an edge, but are tough enough to withstand prying and twisting cuts.

IMO, Magnacut beats H1, H2 and LC200N for salt water use.

[xnmw]

Just to throw in, mine came sharp, not consistently sharp through the whole edge. Nothing like a new steel Spyderco. I appreciate the sharpening sharing going on here; I don’t have anything that would sharpen this yet but I was inclining towards a wheel with some sort yield to it and a very fine diamond paste. I can see this being very unforgiving and I imagine the finer and higher quality/consistence of the grit will be crucial. I’ve seen very varying quality in high grit diamond abrasives under magnification and I’d bet any inconsistently large grit would wreak havoc.

I got this for the love of the game, I am sorry for anyone that’s not happy with theirs—hopefully they can resell and move on.

So far it’s nice in the kitchen, I just have it slicing tomatoes, hamburger buns, etc. Great at slicing very soft fresh bread, it has a bite to it.

Interesting feel to it, like aluminum. I appreciate you all taking the chance on it—I think this is in the truest spirit of the program and I love it as an object even if it doesn’t work out.

Does anyone have a source for the hardware for wood scales for these? I have this itch in my head to make cork scales for this and have it be a floating light duty knife.

[CasperFatone]

Just to throw in, mine came sharp, not consistently sharp through the whole edge. Nothing like a new steel Spyderco. I appreciate the sharpening sharing going on here; I don’t have anything that would sharpen this yet but I was inclining towards a wheel with some sort yield to it and a very fine diamond paste. I can see this being very unforgiving and I imagine the finer and higher quality/consistence of the grit will be crucial. I’ve seen very varying quality in high grit diamond abrasives under magnification and I’d bet any inconsistently large grit would wreak havoc.

I got this for the love of the game, I am sorry for anyone that’s not happy with theirs—hopefully they can resell and move on.

So far it’s nice in the kitchen, I just have it slicing tomatoes, hamburger buns, etc. Great at slicing very soft fresh bread, it has a bite to it.

Interesting feel to it, like aluminum. I appreciate you all taking the chance on it—I think this is in the truest spirit of the program and I love it as an object even if it doesn’t work out.

Does anyone have a source for the hardware for wood scales for these? I have this itch in my head to make cork scales for this and have it be a floating light duty knife.

These are the ones I use-

https://usaknifemaker.com/pivot-barrel- ... bh-ss.html

The screws on these have fairly small heads, but if you prefer something with a larger head the same site sells other 3/16” pivot barrel/screw sets. However, if you wanted to keep the weight down, and don’t care if the scales are removable, you could epoxy them on and use some 3/16” aluminum tubing instead of pins then flare the ends to lock them in place.

[xnmw]

These are the ones I use-

https://usaknifemaker.com/pivot-barrel- ... bh-ss.html

The screws on these have fairly small heads, but if you prefer something with a larger head the same site sells other 3/16” pivot barrel/screw sets. However, if you wanted to keep the weight down, and don’t care if the scales are removable, you could epoxy them on and use some 3/16” aluminum tubing instead of pins then flare the ends to lock them in place.

Thank you so much! That's a great idea on the epoxy/aluminum--I'm not sure my skill level is there yet

[attila]

Mine is about like this, but weirdly cuts 20# copy paper oddly well. I think that the edge was rounded and over-polished, which reduced the edge aggression to zero while still allowing the parting of fibrous materials. It doesn’t bite into my skin, but cuts fibrous paper, etc.

I take this as a learning opportunity to be careful if trying to get a really fine grit finish: be careful to not round the edge while taking it to high-grit finish.

[Davidspeed13]

I’ve seen where people are talking about using the HIC Mule as a dive knife. I’m not sure how great of an idea that is, unless the diver has another knife made from a tougher material as a backup. While the corrosion resistance of HIC is undoubtedly extreme, dive knifes need to be able to stand up to prying and making twisting cuts. While HIC is supposed to be much tougher than previous ceramic knives, I’m not sure that I’d trust it being tough enough in an emergency.

H1, H2, LC200N, titanium, and some other materials used to make dependable dive knives are not necessarily great at holding an edge, but are tough enough to withstand prying and twisting cuts.

IMO, Magnacut beats H1, H2 and LC200N for salt water use.

I’ve abused H1 and LC200N scuba diving and in other ways. Both are extremely impressive in corrosion resistance. H1 is not impressive on edge retention. I’ve found LC200N to have decent edge retention. I’m looking forward to getting a Spyderco Salt in MagnaCut and putting it through its paces to see how it compares. I have no doubt that MagnaCut edge retention will be better than than LC200N and much better than H1. I’ve heard good things about MagnaCut’s corrosion resistance, but still want to test it myself. I like LC200N enough that one of my two daily carry knives is a Spyderco in that steel. Maybe a MagnaCut knife will eventually replace it.

[Bolster]

We really need a high magnification image of what a successfully sharp ceramic edge looks like.

[DocJekl]

Hey, All:

The HIC Mules are sharpened one at a time by one of our most talented and experienced finishers using a 600-grit diamond wheel.

For at-home sharpening, you'll need a diamond or CBN abrasive of at least 600 grit as well. Finer grit (800+) works even better.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks for that info. I have the Spyderco Sharpmaker with both the optional CBN and the optional Diamond rods, in addition to the two different rods that came with it. Are these extra Diamond and CBN rods the correct grit for the HIC blades?

Thanks!

[sal]

Hi DocJekl,

Welcome to our forum.

The diamonds and CBN that we produce are made for quick removal of steel. They'll work in your HIC Mule, used lightly, but we really don't know yet what's optimal. I would guess a higher grit will prove to be best?

sal

[DocJekl]

Hi DocJekl,

Welcome to our forum.

The diamonds and CBN that we produce are made for quick removal of steel. They'll work in your HIC Mule, used lightly, but we really don't know yet what's optimal. I would guess a higher grit will prove to be best?

sal

Thanks! Then I'll just stick with my Worksharp Precision Adjust Professional with Diamonds then, even though it's faster to use the Sharpmaker for quick touch ups.

What I read here before was recommending 600 grit. I'm assuming I can move up to the 800 grit afterwards, and finish it off with the ceramic and a strop with diamond spray?

I might have a 600 grit DMT plate for freehand sharpening when I'm out in the field.

[Michael Janich]

Dear DocJekl:

In my experience, the 400 mesh on the SharpMaker diamond rods was too coarse to create a sharp apex. They removed material, but did not produce a sharp edge. A finer grit diamond abrasive (600-grit) did a better job of that.

Stay safe,

Mike

[brian-g]

I gotta say, I just picked mine up from the UPS store and this thing is the most beautiful knife I've ever laid eyes on. It is pretty sharp already and I'm looking forward to getting it just a little bit sharper. Thank you Spyderco for going a bit out on a limb on this one for us.

[DocJekl]

Dear DocJekl:

In my experience, the 400 mesh on the SharpMaker diamond rods was too coarse to create a sharp apex. They removed material, but did not produce a sharp edge. A finer grit diamond abrasive (600-grit) did a better job of that.

Stay safe,

Mike

That helps me understand a little bit better why the recommendations are what they are.

One of mine came back sharper than the other, although with both of them you could press your finger against the edge fairly hard without cutting yourself, unlike my magnacut Buck 110 that will cut you just from looking at it!

I see these as a novelty right now, something I wanted to test out at home, in the kitchen, or something that would be useful when I’m camping - for cutting things and food up, because they wipe off so easily and won’t stain or rust. I was thinking that the high hardness would promote a longer lasting edge, but I think anything that can sharpen easily with diamonds, could also be dulled easily with use.

[sal]

Hi Brian-g,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[AfternoonTea_Newbie_JK]

Factory edge need to be improved.
At least it should beat factory edge of 35bucks Kyocera HIP knives.

SWISS+USA can do more.

[Michael Janich]

Dear AfternoonTea_Newbie_JK:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Sndmn11]

Hi All,

I posted this on Bladeforums, Spyderco sub-forum. I thought to share here, as there is more Mule activity here;



I'm a bit surprised that most of the comments concerning the HIC Mule is comparing sharpness, that it doesn't get as sharp as steel.

I was hoping that most would see this as a new "Potential" cutting tool. Please use the knives and lets see what they will and will not do? It's not a steel and to date, it has not been as sharp as steel. Early iron blades had their issues, which were eventually resolved. Now we've got powdered steels, Nitrogen steels, Carefully engineered steel by the most knowledgeable among us, like MagnaCut, We've taken serrations to a new level.........................................but all with steel.

This is a new material that we've formed into what is basically a "Sport Knife". It will work in the kitchen and it will work in the field. I think we owe it to our experience, passion, knowledge and future to see what it can be developed into. Let's get to know it. We need to see how it behaves. It may have strengths we haven't discovered yet? It is a mystery? And the Edge is a Ghost.

The pattern is a good all around general shape for most knife cutting applications. We have sheaths and handles and some prefer to make their own.
It won't conduct electricity.
It won't reflect light
It won't rust.
CATRA testing, working hardness was better than steel.
Will it work for hiking/camping detail?
Will it work for dressing game?

I have a Gauntlet set up with CBN rods (40 degrees incl.) I have been using mine quite a bit. I give it about 20 light strokes on the CBN every couple of days. It won't shave hair but it does cut well. It picked up a couple of minor "dings" which easily sharpened out. I check it with a 10X loupe regularly. I've using it for household chores, kitchen use, opening boxes, etc. I too am trying to learn what this "Martian" eats.

I really appreciate the effort and attention that some of the Afi's jumped on it with, and shared their experiences. We all get to learn from each other.

sal

Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree. I'm a little bit disappointed that I went into it thinking that it would basically replace steel, but in working with it a little I'm starting to realize that wasn't the right expectation to approach it with. I would say that I wished the marketing was a little clearer on that, but I recognize my own responsibility there. I could have done more research. I just read "higher edge retention" and plowed straight in with my expectations.

But that being said...



I just can't in good faith find any way to rationalize this as being acceptably sharp. A lemon from the factory? Sure, no big deal accepting that. But while mine might be the most egregious example seen here, how many others have gotten something that bad? If the QC isn't able to prevent a large portion of examples like that escaping the factory, I'm not really sure it should be considered a viable material. I mean, I went ahead and got it in better shape myself, but would this have been warrantied as a manufacturing defect? I guess I'm kind of telling you your own business out of turn with those speculations, but it just seems like a nightmare of returns/warranty claims waiting to happen.

I'm just going to be blunt... (No pun intended) But I think I have actually had disposable utensils with sharper edges than what I got. That's a little hyperbolic, but honestly not by much. The BESS score I posted is described as, "The Knife Found in many Kitchen Drawers" and I really can't argue with that assessment at all. It felt like any random old, beat-up pairing knife that I might pull out of a random friend's drawer to cut up a lime, but not something that I would expect to get new out of a box. And while it may be a little unfair to mention the price as this is an experimental thing, if this material is so exotic that future mass-production batches couldn't be more competitively priced, then I'm unsure what niche it will fill. Dive knife? Ultra concealable? Sure. Average utilitarian blade? Not when an Oxo Goodgrip is $2 from the thrift store and just as sharp.

Now on the PLUS side of things... I have managed to reprofile it, and got it to the point where it will cut receipt paper, printer paper, plastics, etc. It bites into my fingerpads with an acceptable amount of force. I mean, as a sharpening enthusiast, it's just not what I would call sharp. But I think most people would pick it up and cut something and call it a knife. It wasn't particularly hard to get it to this point, though it did require diamond plates--and at the risk of displaying too much hubris--a level of sharpening skill that is exceptional. I'm not sure that every consumer would be able to have repaired it even with CBN or diamond plates. ...and I must insist that it was a "repair".

I still want to give it a chance while modifying what my expectations were. But I am also going to continue to try to get it as sharp as I get my steel blades, because what I was hoping for was getting a material that could get to 100 BESS (or basically just hair popping) and hold that edge for longer than available super steels. If that's not what happens, then so be it... That's what the Mule program is about, right? Testing the performance of blade materials. But I can't lie and say that's not what I was expecting, and that I'm disappointed that it didn't turn out that way, without saying anything else about its merits as a blade material for other uses.

However, I think while it only makes sense for Spyderco to modify their expectations too, given this is a business venture, I would still hope that they don't do so to the extent that they become disingenuous. This was always marketed as a material with extreme edge retention compared to steel. While I will take full responsibility for not doing more research, I am sure that I am far from the only one that inferred it would not only hold an edge longer than steel, but that it would take an edge similar to steel. I don't think it would be right to try and insist after-the-fact that it was never intended to for consumers to think they'd be getting an edge as sharp as steel, that lasts longer. That's not how it worked out, but let's not pretend that wasn't the primary appeal. Perhaps it's not what was promised, but that's what the market thought they were getting.

Beyond that, I am just going to chalk it up to the nature of participating in an experimental program: There's always the potential for disappointment, and I'm not going to be a hater about it. It could have just as easily gone the other way and have been the greatest thing since sliced bread as it's been hyped up as, and frankly I paid a lot less for this education than I would have from most other manufacturers producing blades in this material. So while I'm not going to pretend to be happy, I will still express gratitude where it's due. Who knows, I may still end up finding a way to get that 100 BESS edge off of it that I wanted. Otherwise, now I know that I don't like HIC.

However, and with all due respect, I must emphasize... I don't think I am being unreasonable expecting a premium knife, from a premium-knife company to be sharper than a thrift store pairing knife. If Spyderco can't find a way to produce blades in this material that are sharper than my example, then I guess the fairest thing I can say is: I have no idea why anyone would want one. If my experience is just a one-off, then so be it, but I think it demonstrates the potential for HIC to be a bad material for any purpose.

This is a great write up and I agree with it all.

@Sal last year I cut up 15 deer/elk/pronghorn with a pma11 Mule here in Colorado. It was a heavy year and that knife usually sees about half that work. I have several friends using Mules of various steels as well.

Theres zero chance that HIC in any of the four Mules I originally got would be viable for processing in the field. I think there would be a high chance of an accidental stabbing injury due to increasing force trying to get it to cut and then slipping out into a person's leg/arm. When folks talk about the safest knife is a sharp knife, they must have had HIC in mind.

I returned mine because, as some have already said here, if they come out of the factory duller than Dixie utensils, there isn't much hope. I do recognize the purpose of the Mule concept, but not at $150 a pop, and not in such poor form. I cannot imagine anybody at Spyderco pulled one out of the box or off the factory floor and concluded they were good enough to send out, without having the anxiety one gets when they don't want to get caught doing something bad.

The level of disappointment has changed my view of Spyderco a little bit.