MT40P – HIC Mule Team Dropping Soon!

[hollowt1pz]

When a company engages in an experimental project such as this which seeks feedback from its consumers, it's hilarious to think that it should never expect any of that feedback to be negative, and even more hilarious its fans would take more umbrage with said negative feedback than the company itself.

If this exotic material is so profoundly incomparable to steel that it can't be expected to come with an edge sharper than disposable plastic utensils, that has nothing to do with the consumer's lack of reading ability, but with the company's lack of due diligence in disclosing that information on their product page. This also has nothing to do with expecting a finished product, and everything to do with telling the company they're not ready to release a finished product in said material if that's the best they can do with it.

I don't have time to both make my disposable income and scour internet forums for obscure information related to the materials tested, particularly with one as esoteric as this; that information should be on the product page, and anyone suggesting that the description of this material on said product page wasn't implying that it would perform similarly to steel is being disingenuous. On top of that, I use what spare time I have to fulfill the Mule team's intended goal, and actually test these materials. In addition to other actual data and testing I've done on other steel Mules, I've offered Sal constructive criticism about how viable I believe HIC is as a material consumers may actually desire, and how Spyderco can be more fair to the disgruntled consumers--which if your reading comprehension is as high as you've implied, you'd have noticed I am not one of.

What have you contributed here with your self-proclaimed "dunking" and middle-school vernacular of "clowning," other than suggesting a pretty clear reason why you didn't have the money to actually try one of these--which just points to another hilarity of you thinking you have more of a leg to stand on in commenting than those who did. Fortunately I am adept at tailoring my language to speak to people on their level: You can go ahead and take 'em out of your mouth, Sal's skin is thick enough he doesn't need his fanboys to defend him.

I think you have some really fair points, and I suppose that I could say that about the other guy also. Of course they want all feedback positive or negative. I'm not anyone special, I'm human just as you guys are, however I think we can chill out here. To a third party (me), it seems like you both are arguing the same general situation. A bunch of people get together, make a material and make up a bunch of names for it, some misleading as I'm not sure honestly how many of you guys think of carbides carbonitides nitrides as ceramics. They technically are I believe someone please correct me if I'm mistaken here. But then a company has to make that material, distributors have to buy it and sell it to the companies that machine it.

I think that the problem here is that some people, when they think Spyderco they think.. above average quality and when they are presented with a new material that is ridiculously hard to sharpen correctly they tend to forget about the "mule team" labeling, as they likely think it's a huge company that does releases and tests or materials on high numbers of people some other way. As far as I'm aware this is that. They kinda get the steel in, heat treat it, grind it, sell it. For HIC, don't quote me because this is a total guess but slightly educated one, this stuff seems like some other common types of oxide ceramics and how they're made just the manufacturing process is a little bit different with the injection method. I wish I could use like a whiteboard here to show you guys the difference in how crystals are in ceramics vs metals, but I'm sure the internet has something on it and I am well aware that most people do not have the to research new things. I just happened to do carbide grades for a living and foundry work with AllClad, so I expected some of the... Uniqueness of this alloy. I don't think we have to come to nearly fisticuffs on the internet over it however, just everyone is entirely entitled to their opinion.

Why is it such a big deal to agree to disagree these days sheesh!

[kennbr34]

...presented with a new material that is ridiculously hard to sharpen correctly they tend to forget about the "mule team" labeling...

Picking this out in particular, because it was only in sharpening it that I realized how different from steel it was. It was weird because when reading the product description about how hard the material was, and it requiring CBn or diamonds, I assumed stock removal would be the hardest aspect of it, but it reprofiled exceptionally fast--faster than a lot of steels, actually. Yet it was trying to refine the apex that was the most illuminating, because no matter how much I mitigated the micro-chipping, I could just never get it even nearly as keen or aggressive as I would get steel. It just didn't even cut like steel; it was a super smooth edge that could cut newsprint or something like that, but then I could also do a 3-finger test on it and feel absolutely no bite. When I read the thread about sharpening it, and considered buying some diamond pastes and strops to try to get it to shaving-sharp, I questioned if it would even have the slicing aggression I like in a steel blade if I even managed to get it to that level, and just decided the material wasn't for me.

One thing that I think is unfortunate about communication on an message board like this, is that people somehow seem to conflate the volume of text in a message with something emotional. Somehow it gets perceived as the person being angry or aggrieved in some way. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really invest that much energy to a window of text, and I also don't mind reducing my language to juvenile ad hominems if that's the level of communication someone is capable of. Doesn't mean I'm ready to exchange blows or that I'm emotionally invested in it. Just making my points more accessible to someone with clear difficulty grasping them.

[hollowt1pz]

...presented with a new material that is ridiculously hard to sharpen correctly they tend to forget about the "mule team" labeling...

Picking this out in particular, because it was only in sharpening it that I realized how different from steel it was. It was weird because when reading the product description about how hard the material was, and it requiring CBn or diamonds, I assumed stock removal would be the hardest aspect of it, but it reprofiled exceptionally fast--faster than a lot of steels, actually. Yet it was trying to refine the apex that was the most illuminating, because no matter how much I mitigated the micro-chipping, I could just never get it even nearly as keen or aggressive as I would get steel. It just didn't even cut like steel; it was a super smooth edge that could cut newsprint or something like that, but then I could also do a 3-finger test on it and feel absolutely no bite. When I read the thread about sharpening it, and considered buying some diamond pastes and strops to try to get it to shaving-sharp, I questioned if it would even have the slicing aggression I like in a steel blade if I even managed to get it to that level, and just decided the material wasn't for me.

One thing that I think is unfortunate about communication on an message board like this, is that people somehow seem to conflate the volume of text in a message with something emotional. Somehow it gets perceived as the person being angry or aggrieved in some way. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really invest that much energy to a window of text, and I also don't mind reducing my language to juvenile ad hominems if that's the level of communication someone is capable of. Doesn't mean I'm ready to exchange blows or that I'm emotionally invested in it. Just making my points more accessible to someone with clear difficulty grasping them.

Totally understandable mate I'm the same way!. I figure it's just the internet screw it, but I was just reading your side and his side and it kinda seemed like both of you were.. missing each other's points for what they actually were? However I may have been reading it differently! See that's, in my opinion, the issue with the internet age kids. They know how to type but it's all emotion, or it at least reads like that. God knows it happens to me occasionally.

As far as "MT-40P" goes, I just got my knife back yesterday and I am awaiting a reply from sal before I, or someone who knows more than me, start posting a thorough review.

Personally? That's EXACTLY what my experiences were with this material. I did try to take the time to properly sharpen it, 2 hours, on a 2x72 so. I'd say rather thoroughly and yeah I got a great edge. However people, including myself, feel that it doesn't "cut" the way that other ceramics do. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but what I can say is that the day I got this I went to test it and, to me it felt like a titanium knife almost. It would cut if necessary but even with 0.1m diamond paste I could never get it to bite into keratin better than steel or get it 3 fingers sharp where you touch the blade and start bleeding without feeling anything. It's just not the material for that. It definitely doesn't perform like Kyocera on food either, which I fully expected, plus I saw some people complaining about a similar alloy to this branded ceramic knives and chipping in food. I'll void the name of the company because I can't personally say anything about it. I personally would not be very concerned about that one, particle shape and hardness are bad but it's so small and when I was in the hospital last week, I was looking at freaking food recalls and that kinda confirmed that, well, at times(a lot more than I thought about if you aren't understanding why I am mentioning this) we're literally eating listeria or some plastic. Plus what; we all work around metal here and I think we all know what that means typically for medical purposes. Like getting a non sharp new alloy mule team, we accept that risk knowingly. Albeit perhaps unwaivering in it's opposition.

[sal]

As far as "MT-40P" goes, I just got my knife back yesterday and I am awaiting a reply from sal before I, or someone who knows more than me, start posting a thorough review.

Hi Hollowt1pz,

What type of reply are you expecting from me?

Seems to me like we are beating a dead horse on this. Perhaps we need more sharing of thought on the material rather than arguing over what might have been said or how it was interpreted? One of the beauties of this forum is our patience with each other?

sal

[hollowt1pz]

As far as "MT-40P" goes, I just got my knife back yesterday and I am awaiting a reply from sal before I, or someone who knows more than me, start posting a thorough review.

Hi Hollowt1pz,

What type of reply are you expecting from me?

Seems to me like we are beating a dead horse on this. Perhaps we need more sharing of thought on the material rather than arguing over what might have been said or how it was interpreted? One of the beauties of this forum is our patience with each other?

sal

Sal, my man, my fault.

I sent you an email about this. (Edit: sstash1@verizon.net) Sorry, I have no other way to contact you about forum matters and my.. questions were not related to this at all. It was about having Jason Ward on this forum and his results. I wouldn't bother you with something like this heh. I just don't want to get wrapped up in the middle of it and I'm trying to keep things rather scientific than personal opinion. I just wanted you to kinda know that I would proofread everything before it went live if you were okay with that one given the history between us guys that I hear about often? But honestly know nothing about. Nor is it my business to at that. But this being your company and all, I obviously wanted to get your blessings on the sources of information that I am using. It's not just.. one result or opinion it's science so there's always countering pros and cons.

Mike

[sal]

Hi Mike,

I don't stop folks from making comments on this forum. We don't permit unnecessary anger. If you want to post someones testing, that's fine.

Please keep in mind that "Scientific" here, and to me, is just another word. Very few absolutes these days. His opinion and testing will just be another opinion and his testing. I find "Science" to be wrong quite often depending on what group trying to prove what. Truth is an elusive butterfly these days.

sal

[hollowt1pz]

Hi Mike,

I don't stop folks from making comments on this forum. We don't permit unnecessary anger. If you want to post someones testing, that's fine.

Please keep in mind that "Scientific" here, and to me, is just another word. Very few absolutes these days. His opinion and testing will just be another opinion and his testing. I find "Science" to be wrong quite often depending on what group trying to prove what. Truth is an elusive butterfly these days.

sal

Indeed it is. And yes, of course, I'm going to proofread everything. I agree with you on the quote unquote science part. The only reason why I said that word specifically is because that kid has hundreds of thousands of dollars of "scientific" equipment, that well, people like me just cannot afford because we're poor

[Ramonade]

My friend secured me a HIC Mule at the IWA. I should have it soon and directly try to sharpen it

[Toker]

It was about having Jason Ward on this forum and his results. I wouldn't bother you with something like this heh. I just don't want to get wrapped up in the middle of it and I'm trying to keep things rather scientific than personal opinion.

I have no idea who Jason Ward is. Are his results posted somewhere else? Why can't he simply post here?

Seems weird to have an intermediary asking if he can post here.

[DocJekl]

It’s a test mule. We knew what we were getting into. Why can’t we just provide feedback without disparaging the company?

[hollowt1pz]

It was about having Jason Ward on this forum and his results. I wouldn't bother you with something like this heh. I just don't want to get wrapped up in the middle of it and I'm trying to keep things rather scientific than personal opinion.

I have no idea who Jason Ward is. Are his results posted somewhere else? Why can't he simply post here?

Seems weird to have an intermediary asking if he can post here.

It’s a test mule. We knew what we were getting into. Why can’t we just provide feedback without disparaging the company?

Don't worry, It is weird and a lot of work. Especially for me. Everyone here knows Larrin Thomas, so, long story short, this Jason kid lives right by him(literally), has a MSE in ME/Applied Mechanics also from upenn so is.... educated above what I am on paper. (emphasis on the paper part )

He is a VERY unique individual (High functioning autism/Asperger's), and the way he communicates is like me, very direct, just slightly more *******ish hah. I was playing around with other words, but that one he will even admit himself to being/coming off as so ya it's adpt. He.. and I can say myself here also, are in general disappointed with the differences between science and marketing if you would. I'm older and have figured the life game out (took a second!). So while I may have opinions, I'm 20-21 years older than him and I suppose the life experience doesn't hurt. Typically, I'd be saying that I'M not good with people. However this guy puts a whole new definition to that.

It doesn't make his testing invalid necessarily. He uses Larrin's standards for comparisons sake and basic industry standards, however deviates from longitudinal bend testing because he thinks its more important in a knife. Torsonal testing is something that we are both working to develop a test bed for along with many others.

Jason and sal do not get along. His opinions on Spyderco, WOULD come out. Which, being a little bit older and understanding what it takes to run a company these days I believe I may balance out while still being factual. In one word, it's about respect. While you know that this is a Mule and whatnot, many people have complained about it expecting it to be steel apparently. It's much harder than steel, and much less dense. I can see that most people here know steel, but not much about ceramics. So, if anyone wishes to learn what this material actually is, just google "zirconia toughened aluminia". We're basically* making a knife out of the aluminum oxide grit that we use to grind em. These are classified as "oxide" ceramics, whereas say WC WWC VC etc carbides nitrides are "non-oxide" based usually and thus harder and less flexible.

[sal]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I believe that most here respect Larrin and appreciate the work that he has done. He has shared his research and thoughts with us quite a bit, which we appreciate. He created an exceptional steel which demonstrates understanding and innovation. Larrin had also demonstrated humility, and transparency. Valuable qualities to this group. I will say that I don't always agree with him, which is fine. He is good at what he does, and we are good at what we do.

I don't know who this kid Jay is, so he has zero credibility with me at this time. If he doesn't like Spyderco, that's OK too. There are many that don't like Spyderco or that don't like me personally. I can handle that. I'm a big boy. We have some very bright folks here that have already demonstrated their ability to get this material sharp. If he can get it sharp and share his methods, great. We all learn.

His Autism means nothing to me. We all have our baggage. His many dollars in equipment also means nothing to me. I too have many dollars in equipment. I could be wrong, but it seems like you are trying to sell me on his "expertise". The proof is in the pudding. Neither he nor you brought this product to the market, Spyderco did. If he has something to share, he should share it. If not, that's OK too. We made knives out of TTZ ceramic 20+ years ago, and tested quite a bit for the dive industry. This is a new form of the material, like a new chemistry for a blade steel. It was not an easy task to bring this Mule to the market, but we thought our group would, for the most part, appreciate the opportunity to have it available.

sal

[Fireman]

I appreciate it a ton Sal. So do 99% of your customers and 100% of the flippers

[hollowt1pz]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I believe that most here respect Larrin and appreciate the work that he has done. He has shared his research and thoughts with us quite a bit, which we appreciate. He created an exceptional steel which demonstrates understanding and innovation. Larrin had also demonstrated humility, and transparency. Valuable qualities to this group. I will say that I don't always agree with him, which is fine. He is good at what he does, and we are good at what we do.

I don't know who this kid Jay is, so he has zero credibility with me at this time. If he doesn't like Spyderco, that's OK too. There are many that don't like Spyderco or that don't like me personally. I can handle that. I'm a big boy. We have some very bright folks here that have already demonstrated their ability to get this material sharp. If he can get it sharp and share his methods, great. We all learn.

His Autism means nothing to me. We all have our baggage. His many dollars in equipment also means nothing to me. I too have many dollars in equipment. I could be wrong, but it seems like you are trying to sell me on his "expertise". The proof is in the pudding. Neither he nor you brought this product to the market, Spyderco did. If he has something to share, he should share it. If not, that's OK too. We made knives out of TTZ ceramic 20+ years ago, and tested quite a bit for the dive industry. This is a new form of the material, like a new chemistry for a blade steel. It was not an easy task to bring this Mule to the market, but we thought our group would, for the most part, appreciate the opportunity to have it available.

sal

Oh ya no I was not doing that, just explaining why I sometimes defer to him basically was my reasoning for saying that, plus I have worked for AllClad in various capacities my entire life and know what it takes to develop this stuff in real life as opposed to some people.

I'm going to make a thread about the testing when I get everything from him; but Ya no I didn't mean anything negative there at all. I personally quite like this material. It's definitely not for everyone, but if you know what you are doing it's.. I think I can say now that it officially passed my expectations, but I would like to play around with it a little bit longer.

[hollowt1pz]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I believe that most here respect Larrin and appreciate the work that he has done. He has shared his research and thoughts with us quite a bit, which we appreciate. He created an exceptional steel which demonstrates understanding and innovation. Larrin had also demonstrated humility, and transparency. Valuable qualities to this group. I will say that I don't always agree with him, which is fine. He is good at what he does, and we are good at what we do.

I don't know who this kid Jay is, so he has zero credibility with me at this time. If he doesn't like Spyderco, that's OK too. There are many that don't like Spyderco or that don't like me personally. I can handle that. I'm a big boy. We have some very bright folks here that have already demonstrated their ability to get this material sharp. If he can get it sharp and share his methods, great. We all learn.

His Autism means nothing to me. We all have our baggage. His many dollars in equipment also means nothing to me. I too have many dollars in equipment. I could be wrong, but it seems like you are trying to sell me on his "expertise". The proof is in the pudding. Neither he nor you brought this product to the market, Spyderco did. If he has something to share, he should share it. If not, that's OK too. We made knives out of TTZ ceramic 20+ years ago, and tested quite a bit for the dive industry. This is a new form of the material, like a new chemistry for a blade steel. It was not an easy task to bring this Mule to the market, but we thought our group would, for the most part, appreciate the opportunity to have it available.

sal

I should add that I am not the guy who you want to stick in a communications department or human resources etcetera whatsoever. I originally didn't know anything in detail about Jay and "Spyderco" if you would, I still don't because there's always two sides of an opinion. That's not my argument to get involved with or personal opinion, so I should have just left it out in hindsight and I should have added the parts where I know that well. I can't obviously speak for you? However I always put myself in the other guys shoes and stuff. If I were you? Ya I'm not going to necessarily care what anyone says thinks yada yada yada and I am positive you guys do extensive RD when even thinking about bringing a new material to landed costs let alone profits. Jason has gotten CATRA numbers up in the 13-1400s with CATRA paper, but it's very dependent on edge geometry.. the highest numbers were 60° inclusive. Further news to come.

I know that this isn't necessarily the best forum for.. 'science nerds' [us pretentious *******] and stuff like that, but since it's a brand new material and I personally am a huge Spyderco guy even if I may... How do I say this honestly. Okay sure I do have some questions about pricing as pretty much everyone does even those of us that will pay it and not care (not Jason haha), but as I literally just told him over text message, I don't know the first thing about your company to even say that (think it, well, I stick that in normal human nature). I was like so you have been to their production facility before you have their books their distribution contracts and spent the time, a year at minimum I'd assume, to actually... Get an educated opinion? Ya not exactly the case. Plus manufacturing in the USA in 2024 is... Why I retired unfortunately.

I have read the **** on bladeforums and until uh. Casperfone(sp? Sorry bro) linked it to me I never really did. So, just realized that you may know what I didn't, and essentially this is just a long drawn out way of me saying that I know you can handle yourself man no disrespect or anything like that whatsoever hah!, but I also thought about it. I'm you and I have what easily looks like a pretentious ******* by the way I type, so I've been told, I would have some reservations myself. The relationship between me and Jason is purely professional for some of my customers who want to know the exact Rockwell hardness or heat treatment results on toughness and edge retention. I now have a Rockwell tester but those others are a little bit pricey ha.

That's I suppose why I wanted to stick all of the information (that I know) on the table with the results. I'm the type of guy that knows there is something I won't think about and someone else will. Pretty simple right?


So, sal, while I have not asked, I did say that I would ask for Jay if you guys will share any of your internal testing information on CATRA. I can't say that I wouldn't mind knowing it either but my response was good luck with that lol. Essentially he's curious about.. the physical properties of zirconia and edge angles, his experiences vs you guy's. Nothing proprietary. I just said I'd ask (not deliver!) - don't kill me

[sal]

Hi Mike,

We purchased our CATRA more than 20 year ago and it gets constant use. I personally went to Sheffield and worked with the company since. We have rebuilt it twice,changed our test mules once and retested everything a second time with the new test mules. I would say that we have far more experience using the CATRA than Jay or even Larrin for that matter. We know it's limitations and we have a complete file of tests on many different edges. We are certainly not going to take Jay's opinions of CATRA tests over our own. We are not beginners at this.

sal

[hollowt1pz]

Hi Mike,

We purchased our CATRA more than 20 year ago and it gets constant use. I personally went to Sheffield and worked with the company since. We have rebuilt it twice,changed our test mules once and retested everything a second time with the new test mules. I would say that we have far more experience using the CATRA than Jay or even Larrin for that matter. We know it's limitations and we have a complete file of tests on many different edges. We are certainly not going to take Jay's opinions of CATRA tests over our own. We are not beginners at this.

sal

Never said that you were.. I can see this is going nowhere.

[sal]

Hey Mike,

I am looking forward to hearing Jay Ward's opinions, even though you have said that he doesn't like me or Spyderco. I have already been impressed with some of the results our forumites have shared here. They were able to get better results that we have, so it's win/win for the use of and maintenance of this material.

sal

[hollowt1pz]

Hey Mike,

I am looking forward to hearing Jay Ward's opinions, even though you have said that he doesn't like me or Spyderco. I have already been impressed with some of the results our forumites have shared here. They were able to get better results that we have, so it's win/win for the use of and maintenance of this material.

sal

He wants to put all that together and graph everything for people who like Larrin's data, however I honestly told him that it's a waste of time and people here are going to mostly understand the finicky ness of for example what you were saying about CATRA testing it's.. a measure of one thing and very interpretative. So as of now we're in an argument about what to actually upload and then parse into something graphic and easy to understand. But if you are honestly curious, in general they are all quite positive for what it is. Jay is more impressed than I expected FYI lol. He even said that 150 for it wasn't that horrible which if I'm being frank I didn't expect.

Performance graphics or just raw data and photos/video? I'd probably say the former is a bit superfluous. What would you guys prefer?

I gotta say that I'm honestly surprised to hear you say that you were surprised hahaha.. but I don't oversee a company in 2024 and I couldn't imagine doing so. Personal opinion? Decent pick - the way this stuff abrades is.. a little bit different than the typical zirconia alloys (I've played with various types of zirconia based dental crowns and a Dremel - please don't ask why lmao) but it's much easier to work than I expected and Jay. I pushed to not compare this to titanium alloys cause it's an entirely separate material albeit being used in similar ways theoretically. I'm a pretty neutral person I don't really take sides just the facts. Can only speak for myself obviously.

[Toker]

Performance graphics or just raw data and photos/video? I'd probably say the former is a bit superfluous. What would you guys prefer?

Optimum angle for durability and edge retention. I can't speak for everyone, but that's the only thing that interests me about this material.