Hitachi White Steel

[Traditional.Sharpening]

How is it that we have not seen a Mule with Hitachi White Steel? Considering the fact that this steel has categorically dominated Japanese cutlery for over a hundred years, it seems like a no brainer that there would be a Mule in this steel. I personally use a Nakiri daily in the kitchen which was hand forged by Terayasu Fujiwara using White #1 steel and it is a joy to use. I keep it razor sharp with very minimal input and it is almost ideal in this regard.

A few alternating passes on a Spyderco Medium Ceramic and it's razor sharp again. I run very aggressively low angles on the knife in the neighborhood of 6-8 DPS w/ 15 DPS micro-bevel. All maintenance is done grinding the micro-bevel and when this apex bevel thickens up enough to slow grinding then I plane back the edge bevel on a 325 grit waterstone with a few minutes of work and switch to 1000 grit waterstone to clean up the apex prior to finishing on the Medium Ceramic.

There was an interesting video posted today by Murray Carter of Carter Cutlery describing another interesting quality of the Hitachi White steel. He claims that there is a self sharpening effect that the steel has when hardened to high hardness which allows even a 20 year old knife he produced for a customer, which he claims has hardly been maintained and used heavily, to still cut very well.

That is a very bold claim and could explain why despite a flood of 'modern' steels in Japanese cutlery, White series of steel is still at the top. I have not attempted to measure or observe this quality described in the video and it is not something that will be a feature that matters much to me since I'm not shy of taking a knife frequently to a finishing stone to keep a hair popping edge but I can see this quality being a very well received feature on a working knife for many people.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2N052ASqbp/

[vivi]

I'm a big fan of it for kitchen knives. I'll have to post a photo of my favorite petty and show off how thin it is behind the edge. Very, very thin.

I'd be interested in a mule in white #1. I'm curious how it'd hold up carving wood and performing other camp tasks. It gets very sharp really easily.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I'm a big fan of it for kitchen knives. I'll have to post a photo of my favorite petty and show off how thin it is behind the edge. Very, very thin.

I'd be interested in a mule in white #1. I'm curious how it'd hold up carving wood and performing other camp tasks. It gets very sharp really easily.

Performance would likely be similar to 1095 because it is very similar formula to Hitachi White. Many will turn there nose up at something that resembles 'lawn-mower blade steel' but I look at that phrase as a compliment because it does more than well enough at that sort of abusive work getting blasted into rocks, roots, branches, etc. I'd want it HT'd for high hardness.

At one point someone asked Cliff Stamp on one of his Youtube videos what he felt was the best blade steel for a basic type of knife. 1095 was pretty high up on that list and I am sure it may come as a shock to some considering Cliff had knives in all sorts of steels that he was testing. Below is the quote but I unfortunately didn't copy the link for which video which he had made this comment to a viewer on. I could probably run a search and find it again if anyone doubts he said this.

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"Based on the steel alone, N680, however it would depend on how they are hardening it, though Benchmade usually doesn't have any issues in that regard.

I have steels in pretty much any level you could imagine, right up to things like 121REX and Maxamet at 68-70 HRC. For a basic working knife I tend to prefer simple steels such as O1 because when properly hardened they have a very high combination of ease of maintenance, toughness, strength and wear resistance.

Typically when you jump to the higher carbide steels, while you do gain abrasive wear resistance, it comes at a loss of too many other things and edge blunting is rarely just do to slow wear so my main choice for a working blade would be simply 1095 or ideally W1 at 66/68 HRC. For stainless, AEB-l.

If you want to be fancy, Super Blue, or Nitrobe 77 or other high nitrogen versions of AEB-L, but the practical gains are small for the cost."

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RIP, Cliff. We miss you buddy, the knife world won't be the same without you. Can we get this one made for a tribute to Cliff, Sal?

Side Note : Maybe there would be more interest in an N680 or W1 Mule considering people often hate on 1095?

[sal]

I sure miss Cliff. He pops up in my RAM pretty often. I sure learned lot from Cliff.

I'll watch the thread to see if there is enough interest for a Mule Team. Once you get past the "better" concept, All blade steels have their own flavor. That's why I've said, "No best, all good, just different".

sal

[cycleguy]

I have a Muteki Funayuki Hitachi White 1 laminated in the kitchen for around a year or better now. It quickly became my favorite, impressed with how long the edge has lasted. I’ve cut lots but have used extra caution not to bang the edge into the cutting board surface - which is often glass range top or laminate countertop.

I was on the fence with a Muteki Petty Hitachi White 1 laminated recently … thinking it might be nice with a sheath for a bird and trout field knife and that I should contact carter cutlery about it. Well the knife didn’t last long; and as I was considering, someone snatched it… for the kitchen no doubt.

Murray does a camp knife in Hitachi White 1 laminated … outside my price tolerances … so I’d be in for a Mule!

CG

[xnmw]

I'd be in for a Mule with Hitachi White Steel for sure. Off-topic, I had no idea Cliff passed--that's a major bummer. I took like 20 years off from knives; I miss all his crazy testing from back in the day on bladeforums. He was about the only one I can recall way back then that was taking a scientific approach to edges and steels and he caught a fair amount of grief for it. Ahead of his time, he was.

I wonder how the thickness of a Mule in white steel would perform in the kitchen? Waiting on my first Mule; I'm sure I'll get an idea once it's in hand.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I sure miss Cliff. He pops up in my RAM pretty often. I sure learned lot from Cliff.

I'll watch the thread to see if there is enough interest for a Mule Team. Once you get past the "better" concept, All blade steels have their own flavor. That's why I've said, "No best, all good, just different".

sal

Hi Sal,

Thanks for your words on the subject. I would not be where I am today working on edges professionally were it not for his body of work to draw from and guide my design choices. I have learned a lot from Cliff BUT.. I am STILL learning a lot from Cliff despite his passing marking the end of his contributions to the science of cutlery. He has left behind a staggering body of work and data that is full of little prize nuggets of delight.

I run searches frequently on various aspects related to knives that come up in my work relating to steels/heat treat/sharpening, etc., so I have started to copy the most helpful posts I find into a notepad app. His perspectives still guiding so much of what I do with knives and that says quite a lot. He did so well to document his findings that it is rare for me to not find the answer I am seeking on a quick keyword search. Perhaps it's worth putting together a thread together if time allows but I am quite busy these days.

Just like people, no best, no worst. We are all different and I feel so many people are pulled into judging others for various reasons (mainly because it makes themselves feel 'better' in some way), rather than trying to find the positive aspects within others and encourage them to bring those qualities forward. The problem is we never understand enough about people or steels to really ever know it all but if we can remain free of judgement and open to new ideas then there is still much to learn here in this life. This is why I am fond of the Mule program, hopefully it will continue for many more years here.

[sal]

Hi Xnmw,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[Tucson Tom]

This sounds like a very interesting steel. I am certainly in if this ever comes to pass.

I find the comparisons to 1095 interesting. I have enjoyed simple carbon steels that respond well to sharpening.

The comments about AEB-L are also very interesting -- people calling it a sleeper and statements that with an
aggressive heat treat (like the Spyderco Mule) that it really performs. Well I have some on hand and all this
provokes me to use it and see what I think. I get tempted to compare it to 52100 which I like a alot.

[aprivetera]

I'd definitely be interested in a mule along these lines. Really enjoying peformance of SRS13/SUS405 and AEB-L mules. Larrin's tests suggest potential and Spyderco has shown to deliver excellent quality.

[standy99]

Would love to see and test a knife in Hitachi White Steel in a Mule.

Have recent received a friction folder with a nice thick Hitachi White #1 blade and it’s a beast of a slicer that holds a nice edge for a great length.



Have a few chef knives half the thickness so would be great to see a Mule thickness in this steel.

[vivi]

Would love to see and test a knife in Hitachi White Steel in a Mule.

Have recent received a friction folder with a nice thick Hitachi White #1 blade and it’s a beast of a slicer that holds a nice edge for a great length.



Have a few chef knives half the thickness so would be great to see a Mule thickness in this steel.

can you link me to that folder?

[standy99]

Would love to see and test a knife in Hitachi White Steel in a Mule.

Have recent received a friction folder with a nice thick Hitachi White #1 blade and it’s a beast of a slicer that holds a nice edge for a great length.



Have a few chef knives half the thickness so would be great to see a Mule thickness in this steel.

can you link me to that folder?

Instagram guy named @Oblivion
Makes a run of these every year or so.
https://oblivionblades.com/

[dullmaker]

Sounds like a great mule team member. I would enjoy putting it through its paces.

[weeping minora]

White steel has been asked for before, though obviously never gained enough traction to make the juice worth the squeeze. Albeit, this was asked for when "super steels" were the only steel that seemed to matter to the market. I'm glad this is not the case anymore. I would be up for a White #1 MULE.

[kerrcobra]

I'd be up for a mule in it.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Albeit, this was asked for when "super steels" were the only steel that seemed to matter to the market. I'm glad this is not the case anymore. I would be up for a White #1 MULE.

This is not the case anymore? It seems to be the main focus here, from what I have seen.

[sal]

Hi Traditional.Sharpening,

I have no problem with Hitachi White steel. I use it and like it. We didn't get enough support, when it was brought up before, to do the Mule. It's not only the question of investment in dollars, it's real drag if you guys don't want it. I think it would make a nice Mule Team, but we'd probably make fewer of them. Also, while it's not a very profitable return for the effort extended, it's not well received when we lose money.

Maybe someone could add a poll to yes or no on a Mule Team?

sal

[weeping minora]

Albeit, this was asked for when "super steels" were the only steel that seemed to matter to the market. I'm glad this is not the case anymore. I would be up for a White #1 MULE.

This is not the case anymore? It seems to be the main focus here, from what I have seen.

I know it doesn't look as such, but there is a noticeable amount of more respect, and ask for lesser alloyed steels here within the forum these days, than in years past. Just my observation.

As Spyderco is always about pushing the envelope, it's inherent that the many here would want the next greatest achievement in performance, brought to market within a production format. I was happy to see AEB-L make its way into the line-up, and am looking forward to the future 19C27 MULE. Now I'd like to see some of these steels (looking at AEB-L in particular), start to become a part of their standard production offerings. Time will tell, but it seems an uphill battle.

As with everything around here, patience and persistence are the keys to achievement in your ask. It may just need more exposure here on the forums to spark excitement for a White Steel MULE.

[benben]

Count me in, I’ve never used White before, my current favorite kitchen knife is Blue #2.