Torque and lightweight models

[toomanyquestions]

Whenever I hear about a liner-less LW model with a blade that exceeds 3.5" (e.g. endura, police, chief) I wonder about the torque that a long blade can put on a simple liner-less FRN/FRCP handle. Personally, I would find it difficult, but not impossible, to justify buying a liner-less knife if the blade was > 3.5".

From my perspective the obvious advantages of LW construction make sense on smaller offerings such as the Lil Native, Delica, Native, Endela, LW Manix, and so on.

I am curious: what has been your experience, and what are your thoughts?

[Mr_Whiskerz]

If that was an actual problem, I don't think Spyderco would be selling linerless SALT knives. They've been making linerless FRN knives like the Endura for how many decades?

[Coastal]

It's definitely possible to flex an FRN/FRCP handle by torquing the knife, but it's hard for me to imagine damaging said handles doing anything I'd normally do with a knife.

I'm not sure why blade length would matter when torquing a knife, though. The same torque is applied to the handle whether it's applied to the blade at the tip or the heel. In fact, it's easy to see that torque can be more easily applied where the blade is deepest rather than at the tip. That is, if I'm picturing "torquing a knife" the way I think you are.

[Pokey]

I haven’t had issues in the times I’ve used linerless FRN knives > 3.5”, but I’m not using them to the point where they give.

I guess any material could exceed its elasticity and give. I think at the point where any part of it starts to bend, or twist, you’d need to throttle back a bit or switch to something else made for heavier duty.

[Scandi Grind]

I've heard a lot of people cite sources that say FRN is actually tougher than G10, so I don't think there is anything to be concerned about unless your trying to use it as a pry bar, even then, I think your blade will break before the handles, so you don't want to use it as a pry bar any way. A lot of people interpret something that flexes as being weaker, but that is not necessarily the case, sometimes quite the opposite.

[zhyla]

Lateral torque should be avoided. These aren’t prybars. The tip will snap before FRN handles.

[Mushroom]

It's definitely possible to flex an FRN/FRCP handle by torquing the knife, but it's hard for me to imagine damaging said handles doing anything I'd normally do with a knife.

I'm not sure why blade length would matter when torquing a knife, though. The same torque is applied to the handle whether it's applied to the blade at the tip or the heel. In fact, it's easy to see that torque can be more easily applied where the blade is deepest rather than at the tip. That is, if I'm picturing "torquing a knife" the way I think you are.

We all know what they say about those who assume things but I’ll do it anyway… I’m guessing the OP is referring to “torque” as a lateral force on the pivot through prying, rather than a twisting force on the pivot.

Which in that case, “torque” would not be the correct word to use but I still think I understand what they’e getting at. With a prying force (not recommended), a longer blade can provide more leverage than a shorter blade, which could potentially apply a greater lateral force on the pivot. I’m guessing this is what leads to the OP’s concerns about linerless FRN and FRCP handles.

I do agree though, with most common and average knife uses it’s difficult to imagine a use case scenario for a folding knife that would call for enough torque to damage the handles. (Even linerless FRN or FRCP handles.)

[Coastal]

We all know what they say about those who assume things but I’ll do it anyway… I’m guessing the OP is referring to “torque” as a lateral force on the pivot through prying, rather than a twisting force on the pivot.

Hahaha! You're probably right, and that never occurred to me. "Those who assume," now that's twisting the knife...

I assumed he meant loading the knife in torsion, rather than in bending. Neither of which should be done to a folder except under difficult circumstances, and again, that's probably what he meant. That said, you're not going to break linerless FRN unless you're deliberately trying, probably with a cheater bar. I'd trust a Pac Salt to stand up to any amount of torsion or bending I could apply with my own strength. But maybe he's a lot stronger than me...

[RustyIron]

I am curious: what has been your experience, and what are your thoughts?

My experience is that I've never broken the handle on a LW Spyderco knife. After gently using my second Spyderco for a week, a Manix 2 LW, I noticed a hairline crack emanating from the pivot hole. I assume it happened during manufacturing, and Spyderco replaced it.

I really don't think that it would be breakable by using the knife with one's bare hands. I'd put money against it, except to do so would encourage behavior that I think would have a high chance of personal injury. I don't want to take someone's money by getting them hurt.

Is there anyone reading this who has been using a LW Spyderco with their bare hands and has broken the handle? Please explain and show pictures (If you can still type!).

[apollo]

If that was an actual problem, I don't think Spyderco would be selling linerless SALT knives. They've been making linerless FRN knives like the Endura for how many decades?

It depends on the lock.
For a lockback there is no problem.
However at the Amsterdam meet Eric told us himself that locks like the compression lock do have there problems with lenght in linerless lw construction.
And his example was that a Military LW wasnt going to be feasable any time soon because of how the material causes the lock to have problems.

[toomanyquestions]

I'm not sure why blade length would matter when torquing a knife, though. The same torque is applied to the handle whether it's applied to the blade at the tip or the heel. In fact, it's easy to see that torque can be more easily applied where the blade is deepest rather than at the tip. That is, if I'm picturing "torquing a knife" the way I think you are.

I was thinking the length of the blade could act a little bit like a lever in certain odd situations. I may be wrong - I am not an engineer (nor do I 'play one on tv' ).

[toomanyquestions]

But maybe he's a lot stronger than me...

Have no concern, I doubt it, hehehehe.

[bdblue]

When the LW Manix 2 came out in S110V version people were trying to take the blades out to put in G10 handles. The LW handles proved to be very tough and resistant to intentional destruction. I have the S110V version but I now have the Rex45 version and that is my "work in the garage" knife.

I don't believe in putting any force on the knife that I would think might damage the handles, I think it would more than likely damage the blade. If I need a prybar I have plenty of those in my garage.

Spyderco has the LW Endura and has made the LW Police so I don't know why a LW Military would be a problem.

I think "bending" is more what the OP meant rather than "torque". I have put torque on one of my old knives, this was a folder handed down from my father with the tip of the main blade broken off. I ground the end square and used it as a fold-up screwdriver when I worked as a mechanic. I don't play an engineer on TV but I do play an engineer in my work life.

[Coastal]

I'm not sure why blade length would matter when torquing a knife, though. The same torque is applied to the handle whether it's applied to the blade at the tip or the heel. In fact, it's easy to see that torque can be more easily applied where the blade is deepest rather than at the tip. That is, if I'm picturing "torquing a knife" the way I think you are.

I was thinking the length of the blade could act a little bit like a lever in certain odd situations. I may be wrong - I am not an engineer (nor do I 'play one on tv' ).

You're right, it does act as a lever in some cases. When you asked your question, did you mean sticking the tip into something and bending from side to side? In that case it does act as a lever and blade length matters a lot.

Or did you mean sticking the knife in and twisting? That's what I thought you meant by torquing, and in that case blade length doesn't matter. In both cases, I'm willing to count on FRN handles being strong enough to handle any force I can put on the knife.

[RustyIron]

I was thinking the length of the blade could act a little bit like a lever in certain odd situations. I may be wrong - I am not an engineer (nor do I 'play one on tv'

Brother, you might not be one, but you certainly have the chops to play one on the stage and screen. It's all about the leverage and what's going to fail first: the blade, the handle, or your willingness to exert that much pressure and put your body at risk.

[Fastidiotus]

TIL that before the 4th iterations the Endura/Delica were linerless.

[Wartstein]

Whenever I hear about a liner-less LW model with a blade that exceeds 3.5" (e.g. endura, police, chief) I wonder about the torque that a long blade can put on a simple liner-less FRN/FRCP handle. ...

Let me just say: My Pac Salt 1 is probably the folder I have beaten on the most and done things to that can if at all just remotely still be called folder tasks... no problems whatsoever.
After all there is a lot of steel in the back (lockbar)

That said: Yes, there IS more flex than lets say in the "linered version" of this knife, the Endura.
And also more than in the shorter FRCP Manix 2 LW (additionally to being shorter I feel that FRCP is stiffer than FRN, but perhaps also a tad more "chippy" / "brittle (COMPARED to FRN!) - could be wrong though)

So: With a knife like the Pac Salt you WILL experience some flex with harder lateral forces, but is it a practical/ technical/ safety problem? Not at all in my personal experience, and I figure guys like Vivi will agree.

I also think that the Pac Salt 2 with it even lighter, inside "hollowed out" handle could have a bit more flex than the "solid" FRN slabs of the Pac Salt 1.

[Wartstein]

I've heard a lot of people cite sources that say FRN is actually tougher than G10, so I don't think there is anything to be concerned about unless your trying to use it as a pry bar, even then, I think your blade will break before the handles, so you don't want to use it as a pry bar any way. A lot of people interpret something that flexes as being weaker, but that is not necessarily the case, sometimes quite the opposite.

I am one of those people, and here are two quotes again (one by Michael Janich) that speak for this too

viewtopic.php?t=89908&start=80#p1532157

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=94777#p1713847

Note though: While FRN most likely is TOUGHER than G10 (less likely to chip for example when dropped from heights) it also most likely has more flex / is less stiff than G10.

I figure if one used an "FRN prybar" vs a "G10 prybar" the former would flex more and earlier, but not actually break... perhaps, just a guess, G10 would be more rigid up to a certain load, but then break earlier?

[Scandi Grind]

TIL that before the 4th iterations the Endura/Delica were linerless.

I honestly wonder if I would like them to go back to linerless construction, but due to the general aversion to flex in handles, I have a feeling it wouldn't be appreciated by and large. Not that I don't get appreciating a stiff handle either, it does feel nice, I just really like lightweight knives with a good amount of length, and flex doesn't really bug me.

[carrot]

I honestly wonder if I would like them to go back to linerless construction, but due to the general aversion to flex in handles, I have a feeling it wouldn't be appreciated by and large. Not that I don't get appreciating a stiff handle either, it does feel nice, I just really like lightweight knives with a good amount of length, and flex doesn't really bug me.

Many of the new LWs, including Native 5 LW, Manix 2 LW, Para 3 LW and also the Seki Stretch XL are linerless and don't seem to have much reported flex. I don't feel the new LWs are in any way lacking in quality or action to their more traditionally constructed metal and G-10 brethren. I can't escape the nagging feeling that linered G10 lasts longer, however I sincerely doubt I could ever break or wear out the N5 Salt or Salt 2 in my lifetime.

If the Delica 4/E4 moved to stainless liners for less flex, better action, better balance, and durability, the popularity here of the Pacific Salt proved linerless to be good enough, and the popularity of the M2LW and P3LW prove that linerless is good enough for mainstream models. I think the fact that we're seeing increased investment in linerless LW with the Native LW, Native Chief LW and Stretch XL shows that Spyderco feels modern materials have improved enough that liners are unnecessary in even the hardest working models.

That said, I wouldn't want linered models to disappear! I still love the Crucarta PM2, the standard D4 FFG, the Chaparral, and the Rockjumper (and many more) exactly how they're constructed.