Why Do Seki Models Have Lock Rock??!!

[Studiousworkman]

This is not going to be too long but I have to share my experience since this family forum of Spyderco collectors are helpful and knowledgeable. Also, I hope this feedback finds it's way to Sal and Eric (whom I greatly admire) who will help make it right for the future:

I've bought three different Seki City models in K390 these last few months - the Dragonfly, the Leafjumper and the Endela. All of these models had some serious lock rock!! I wound up returning them but, I will not continue to buy the Spyderco models from Japan. I'm not a knifemaker, but I am a collector with some understanding of locking mechanisms and lock rock on a back lock should not happen. The American models I've owned - the Native, Native Chief have never had the slightest hint of lock rock. Not even my Buck 110 had lock rock, and that cost a quarter of the price. I tried tightening down the pivots on the Seki models before returning them, to no avail; even to the point of almost not being able to open the knife, and it still had lock rock. The arm bar of the back lock should securely lock or "hook" into the notch in the blade, fastening it in place with no wiggle.

This is almost disheartening because I've badly wanted to try the K390 steel which so many people rave about. I guess I will have to wait until/if they ever produce an American model with the infamous K390 steel.

I'm very disappointed in these Japanese models, and I will only buy the American models (as I have been) going forward. The quality control, fitment, tolerances are much better from The Golden factory. Thank God for American manufacturing as I believe it is still some of the absolute best quality you can receive in the entire world.

[skeeg11]

Can't see Spyderco putting out an unsafe lock. May be a function of the lightweight linerless design, but very annoying. When it comes to lock rock, even the Chinese Byrd lock backs are far superior..

[vivi]

Strange, all my golden made lockbacks have lock rock.

[Studiousworkman]

Can't see Spyderco putting out an unsafe lock. May be a function of the lightweight linerless design, but very annoying. When it comes to lock rock, even the Chinese Byrd lock backs are far superior..

Interesting note there about the Byrds. Although, both the Leafjumper the Endela FRN still have reinforced steel liners.

[jdw]

…. I guess I will have to wait until/if they ever produce an American model with the infamous K390 steel…

Bento Box Shop has both the Para 3 and PM2 in K390 if you don’t mind compression locks and paying a steep premium.

[araneae]

Do some quick forum searches and you will see that this isn't anything new. The locks are certainly safe and secure, and Spyderco considers this to be within acceptable limits. Some people can't accept that, and that's unfortunate, because there are a lot of great models to be missed out on. I have several dozen Seki lockbacks and many of them have noticeable lock rock, many don't. It's not something that really bothers me in daily use. Pivot tightening can't fix vertical movement. Golden models certainly seem to have placed an emphasis on tolerances and may show less of this, but for some reason Seki hasn't been pressed to dial it in the same way...

[skeeg11]

Can't see Spyderco putting out an unsafe lock. May be a function of the lightweight linerless design, but very annoying. When it comes to lock rock, even the Chinese Byrd lock backs are far superior..

Interesting note there about the Byrds. Although, both the Leafjumper the Endela FRN still have reinforced steel liners.

Perhaps Japanese FRN is more flexible than Golden or Chinese FRN. It's not like Seki City or G. Sakai doesn't know how to make superior back locks. I remember back in the 80's whn I bought my first Gerber mid back lock made by G.Sakai or Gerber Sakai back then. It was the absolute tightest lock back I had ever seen at that point in time. Put all Buck 110's and butt locks to shame.

[elena86]

I am with OP 100%. In this day of age it’s almost unacceptable and the fact the many keep saying that it’s not like the lock would fail is just perpetuating the situation. I appreciate and understand Spyderco’s loyalty towards the Seki shop as much as the next guy but I guess the customers should come first. It’s sad because many of their most popular models come from Seki oh and let’s not forget Moki. My Calys had such amount of lock rock that I was forced to sell most of them. Why don’t they implement the internal stop pin is beyond my understanding. We are in the 21 century and it’s not like performing brain surgery… to say at least. Once again… sad.

[Studiousworkman]

...The locks are certainly safe and secure, and Spyderco considers this to be within acceptable limits. Some people can't accept that, and that's unfortunate, because there are a lot of great models to be missed out on. I have several dozen Seki lockbacks and many of them have noticeable lock rock, many don't. It's not something that really bothers me in daily use...

With all due respect, lock rock, side to side play, lock slippage, can and will eventually result in failing. I value my fingers and my hands so I will not trust any of members with a faulty lock in any fashion. There are reports of this happening and people needing serious surgery. Cars fail in accidents and testing because of improper design, engineering, mechanics, etc. Tools as well, among many other items out there. If you're not bothered by it in daily use, that's your prerogative. Me on the other hand, I won't take any chances.

[Studiousworkman]

I am with OP 100%. In this day of age it’s almost unacceptable and the fact the many keep saying that it’s not like the lock would fail is just perpetuating the situation. I appreciate and understand Spyderco’s loyalty towards the Seki shop as much as the next guy but I guess the customers should come first. It’s sad because many of their most popular models come from Seki oh and let’s not forget Moki. My Calys had such amount of lock rock that I was forced to sell most of them. Why don’t they implement the internal stop pin is beyond my understanding. We are in the 21 century and it’s not like performing brain surgery… to say at least. Once again… sad.

Agreed = 1,000%. Thank you!

[kerrcobra]

I have a ton of Delicas, and I don't notice lock rock on any but 1 of them. I have several Golden lockbacks too, and there is lock rock on at least 2-3 of them. In my personal experience, it's been hit or miss but still very rare, and I seem to mostly have good luck with them. I don't understand the argument about how the lock "will eventually result in failing" though. How is it that you and these other folks are cutting with your knives that could cause the lock to fail and close on your fingers? I am genuinely curious to hear something more than anecdotal evidence of it "happening and people needing serious surgery".

[ladybug93]

i consider most of the seki models to be for lighter duty. they are not meant for cutting down a tree or even making kindling. sure, you can push them into hard use and i'd have no problem using any of mine in a survival scenario if it was what i had on me, but they are not built to be survival knives like a lot of other over-built knives that are popular.

i love a good triad lock on a cold steel, but most of those knives are too hefty and huge for edc. a wharncliffe delica is a much better choice. but, since i'm survival minded, i settle in the middle with the manix. it's beefy enough to be pushed harder, it doesn't have any lock play at all, and it is more confidence inspiring while still being a good performer in daily tasks.

i'm not sure what you're doing to experience so much lock rock, but i barely even notice it, even with my pacific salt. i know it's there, but it's never stopped a cut or made it feel like the knife is going to fail. i mean, even my swiss army knives have rock and don't have locks, but they haven't failed on me or been dangerous to use. maybe you are using it harder than it's meant to be used.

don't get me wrong... i'm not some seki apologist, and i'm often one of the few around here that will speak up when something isn't right. i just think these are unrealistic expectations for a thin mid-backlock knife with plastic scales that's offered at a relatively low price. try something like an ultimate hunter from cold steel if you want a knife that you can beat the snot out of at a good price and with good steel and cutting geometry.

[mikey177]

Even Golden back locks can have issues, as this 2021 thread about Siren - strange lock movement shows us.

[Bolster]

I am with OP 100%. In this day of age it’s almost unacceptable and the fact the many keep saying that it’s not like the lock would fail is just perpetuating the situation. I appreciate and understand Spyderco’s loyalty towards the Seki shop as much as the next guy but I guess the customers should come first. It’s sad because many of their most popular models come from Seki oh and let’s not forget Moki. My Calys had such amount of lock rock that I was forced to sell most of them. Why don’t they implement the internal stop pin is beyond my understanding. We are in the 21 century and it’s not like performing brain surgery… to say at least. Once again… sad.

I may not be able to state my position as vividly, but I am in general agreement. Enough other knife companies have reduced lock rock to a degree that Spyderco is starting to appear unique in tolerating it. I love the Caly in particular and own several, but have sold almost half of them due to rock, and don't want to risk buying similar replacements. If Spyderco were to institute the chaparral-like stop pin, I'd gladly replace all those I sold due to rock.

Each time this topic comes up, need to specify: it's reduced amount not completely eliminated that I'm looking for. I'm not asking for no rock. I'm looking for it to be not noticeable and bothersome on a day-to-day basis. This is the case with all the Golden lockbacks I own. They may not be absolutely rock free, but they are virtually rock free to the point it's unnoticeable in daily use. Whereas some of my beloved Calys I'd call "floppy." I don't expect them to unlock, but the movement is disconcerting.

[Wartstein]

.

With all due respect, lock rock, side to side play, lock slippage, can and will eventually result in failing. I value my fingers and my hands so I will not trust any of members with a faulty lock in any fashion. There are reports of this happening and people needing serious surgery. Cars fail in accidents and testing because of improper design, engineering, mechanics, etc. Tools as well, among many other items out there. If you're not bothered by it in daily use, that's your prerogative. Me on the other hand, I won't take any chances.

Also with all due respect: No, the "Seki lock rock" will not "eventually result in failing".

Seki backlocks are by far my most used Spydies for many years now, some of them extensively and "hard" (for a folder): Not the slightest danger of "failing" at all ever, not even in those I have really been beating on (including stuff that is really more fixed blade duty normally)

In fact there are tests and reports that confirm and show how strong these locks still and really are and remain.

There might also be reports that a backlock failed too, I personally have never read one (unlike than about comp.locks and linerlocks) and don´t think that if so this was the result of "lock rock".

That said: Yes, all of my Seki backlocks do have and had lock rock, some a bit more, some just if I really tried hard to provoke it by pressing the blade on a surface.
This though is true for any backlock Spydie (also Golden ones) I´ve owned. Exception: The Taichung Chaparral (internal stop pin).

I personally don´t mind that at all, but respect if others do. It is not a safety issue though.

[RustyIron]

Changed my mind. Ignore this.

[Wartstein]

i consider most of the seki models to be for lighter duty. they are not meant for cutting down a tree or even making kindling. sure, you can push them into hard use and i'd have no problem using any of mine in a survival scenario if it was what i had on me, but they are not built to be survival knives like a lot of other over-built knives that are popular.

i love a good triad lock on a cold steel, but most of those knives are too hefty and huge for edc. a wharncliffe delica is a much better choice. but, since i'm survival minded, i settle in the middle with the manix. it's beefy enough to be pushed harder, it doesn't have any lock play at all, and it is more confidence inspiring while still being a good performer in daily tasks.

i'm not sure what you're doing to experience so much lock rock, but i barely even notice it, even with my pacific salt. i know it's there, but it's never stopped a cut or made it feel like the knife is going to fail. i mean, even my swiss army knives have rock and don't have locks, but they haven't failed on me or been dangerous to use. maybe you are using it harder than it's meant to be used.

don't get me wrong... i'm not some seki apologist, and i'm often one of the few around here that will speak up when something isn't right. i just think these are unrealistic expectations for a thin mid-backlock knife with plastic scales that's offered at a relatively low price. try something like an ultimate hunter from cold steel if you want a knife that you can beat the snot out of at a good price and with good steel and cutting geometry.

Admittedly Seki backlocks are my favorite Spydies, but for personal, good reasons, so like you I consider myself not being a "Seki apologist" too.

Just out of interest though: What tasks do you think could a Manix take that a linered Endura, especially in sabre grind but also in ffg, can´t? (And yes, I know you are certainly talking about the also linered G10 Manix and yes, it might "feel" more solid)?

True also for an unlinered, H1 sabre hollow grind Pac Salt: Yes, one could invent a rather arbitrary artifical test where an unlinered FRN handle will snap, but linered G10 will not: In real life knife/folder tasks though, I never ran into any, even the hardest folder task that a Pac Salt could not take. In fact in really hard use I´d trust a sturdy, sabre hollow H1 blade even more than the ffg, tapered Manix blade.

/ Now what is true of course: Seki FRN backlocks all will have some degree of lock rock (which is not a safety issue though, as we agree), while a CBBL Manix will not.
So if one really is bothered by that (lock rock), another line of Spydies will be the better choice, no doubt.

[araneae]

...The locks are certainly safe and secure, and Spyderco considers this to be within acceptable limits. Some people can't accept that, and that's unfortunate, because there are a lot of great models to be missed out on. I have several dozen Seki lockbacks and many of them have noticeable lock rock, many don't. It's not something that really bothers me in daily use...

With all due respect, lock rock, side to side play, lock slippage, can and will eventually result in failing. I value my fingers and my hands so I will not trust any of members with a faulty lock in any fashion. There are reports of this happening and people needing serious surgery. Cars fail in accidents and testing because of improper design, engineering, mechanics, etc. Tools as well, among many other items out there. If you're not bothered by it in daily use, that's your prerogative. Me on the other hand, I won't take any chances.

If lock rock resulted in failure at any appreciable rate, Spyderco would be out of business. There are tens of thousands of Seki lockbacks out in the world being used daily and in my time here, it has not seemed to be a safety issue.

[Doc Dan]

This is almost disheartening because I've badly wanted to try the K390 steel which so many people rave about. I guess I will have to wait until/if they ever produce an American model with the infamous K390 steel.

Infamous? In what way does K390 have a bad reputation?

I do think the Golden knives have better tolerances, as do the Taiwanese knives. Perhaps a lockback from one of those factories?

[apollo]

Not one of my golden lockback spydies have any lock rock. But i must confess i have no idea about seki knives because i only own 1 anymore and that is an old Ayoob that is also lock rock free the rest i all sold off. But that said i havent bin interested in Seki spydies for years. I look at them as entry level spydies from the moment you start buying Golden and taichung spyders the ones of Seki seem to loose there appeal.
That said i agree that Spyderco should need to be more strickt to there Japanese plants.
Not only is there quality not in balance.
There prices from the moment they make something in g10 are out of this world as wel.
So a hey guys step up your game because you arent performing like you use to would be not out of place in this situation i gues.