Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

A place to share your experience with our Mule Team knives.
kennbr34
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:06 am

Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#1

Post by kennbr34 »

So I took on this little comparison, mostly out of boredom, and party because I wanted to test assumptions that Kizer probably didn't do a good heat treat on their 10V. Considering that I could probably count on Spyderco's, I figured a comparison between the Kizer Sheepdog in 10V and the Spyderco K294 Mule should be a reasonable assessment. I figured I would share the results just in case they're useful for anyone else, since it is data for a Mule too afterall.

Image

Sheepdog Specs
Primary Blade Grind Angle: 3.75 Degrees Per Side
Edge Angle: 27 Degrees Inclusive
Blade Thickness: ~1/8"
Blade Length: 3.25"
Initial Sharpness: 149 BESS

Mule Specs
Primary Blade Grind Angle: 2.5 Degrees Per Side
Edge Angle: 32 Degrees Inclusive
Blade Thickness: ~1/8"
Blade Length: 3.5"
Initial Sharpness: 134 BESS

Angles were measured at midpoint of the blade and marked so that the BESS testing could be done at that same point.

Sharpening Method
Both knives were sharpened free-hand

Bevel Setting: Atoma 140 followed by Shapton Kuromaku 120

Coarse Scratch Removal: Shapton Kuromaku 2k

Final Apex Refinement: DMT 25 Micron/600 Mesh Credit Card Hone

Why use the coarser DMT after the Shapton Kuromaku 2k? For one thing, because I can control my sharpening with it better, but it's a small hone and I just wanted to use the Shapton 2k to get the coarse scratches out. Secondly, because the softer abrasives of the ceramic stones burnish more.than abrade on high vanadium steels, I wanted to be sure to leave an apex that wasn't fatigued by that. Plus I just prefer that coarseness in general.

Test Method
I used 8.5" wide flaps off of Chewy boxes. These are single ply corrugated cardboard about 1/8" thick. I made slicing cuts along the corrugations from heel to tip of the knife, along the entire 8.5" width, so that the cardboard was affecting the steel with draw/slice cuts.

I tested the edge on my BESS tester every 100 cuts. Now, my BESS tester is one of the early prototype models, so it works a little differently than the newer models.

Image

A brief explanation if it's not obvious by looking at it: The blade is placed in a magnetic base, and a thread is held in the yoke over it. You then place the thread on the knife blade, and add weight to the white platen atop the spindle until the thread severs. Then you can observe the weight in grams that you had to add. The whole spindle, planten and yoke must be included in the weight taken, so you basically add 50 to the readout.

This early prototype had a lot of problems and has issues with consistency, so I have to take several readings and average them out with each measurement. Once enough data is collected, the inconsistencies or "noise" are clearer to see. But you will note that at some points lower BESS scores than the previous will happen because of this, but overall you can take a measurement of BESS points gained per cut to ensure the final results follow that trend and aren't aberrant readings.

Data
Image

As you can see I stopped taking BESS readings for the Sheepdog after 500 cuts, and only took another measurement at 1000. The average on that reading was a lot lower than I expected, again because of the inconsistencies with this BESS tester, but definitely not outside the range of .025 BESS points gained per cut.

For example, for the Mule, starting at 134 and gaining .025 BESS per cut then 134+(1000*.25) = 384 BESS which is pretty close to the last measurement. Given that the Sheepdog should have been 149+(1000.24) = 399, and with the wide inconsistencies with this BESS tester (some of the readings in the last average were as low as 260 and some as high as 330) that's close enough to the expected range.

Other Perspectives and Usefulness of BESS Data
One thing that was nice about the 8.5" flaps is that it was well suited to making a slicing cut from heel to tip with these blades. However, it's also easy to conceptualize this data into more standard rates. For example, 1000 x 8.5" cuts equates to about 708 feet of cardboard cut in total. It's also easy to convert the BESS Per Cut rates into BESS Per Foot as well by doing 'BESS Per Cut / Cut Inches * 12'. So in this instance it would be about .353 BESS Per Ft. Assuming it holds linearly, then, we could estimate the BESS score after cutting 2000 feet per cardboard by doing 'Starting BESS + (Feet Cut * BESS Pet Feet)'.

So for example with a starting BESS of 149 and a BESS Per Foot of .353 you'd end up at 855 BESS after cutting 2000 feet of cardboard. Or you could estimate what the max amount of feet in cardboard you could cut per a BESS limit with the inverse: (BESS Limit - Starting BESS) / BESS Pet Foot. So suppose with a starting BESS of 149, and at .353 BESS Pet Foot we didn't want to exceed 500 BESS, then we would know we could cut (500−149)÷.353 = 994 Feet of cardboard.

I might go ahead and do some similar testing for my 15V Mule, but maybe not given the inconsistencies with this BESS tester. Plus since there's already a lot of data out there about how much more edge retention 15V should have, I can probably reasonably extrapolate what the expected BESS Per Feet figure would be by looking at the TCC percentage differences between 10V and 15V in Larrin's data. For example 10V ranges from 725-to 800 TCC in Larrin's CATRA tests, and 15V is about 875 TCC so with 10V having basically 83-91% of 15V's score, I would estimate a theoretical BESS Per Foot score of 15V at .292-.323. Given the margin of inconsistency in the BESS scores it would be hard to tell the difference between data that confirmed that and the "noise" mentioned earlier, but applying the same formula I would expect 15V to cut through 1,086 to 1,202 feet of cardboard before reaching a BESS score of 500.

Conclusion
So given that the Sheepdog is 5 degrees more acute than the Mule, but is probably a lot softer, the numbers being pretty neck-to-neck like this makes sense.
In any case, I figured this might be interesting to some, and could possibly provide BESS data for others to compare with.
barnaclesonaboat
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu May 04, 2023 1:00 pm

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#2

Post by barnaclesonaboat »

Cool experiment - I can appreciate the time and work that went into this effort. Thanks for your dedication and work to share this with everyone! I agree with your conclusion that the two samples being neck/neck makes some sense, but I also think that the 5 degree edge difference confounds the results somewhat to the point of blurring my own conclusion, at least inasmuch as being able to isolate the performance difference to just the heat treat. I do however appreciate the practical equivalence of these 2 edges by BESS testing and your test and data has really stimulated my thinking on sharpening this morning.

Perhaps because I'm data-starved on my own edges and yearn for access to a BESS, I was compelled to explore your data a little more. I started to wonder about the rate of BESS change/cuts, and the nature of such a curve; my thinking was that comparison of BESS data/cuts trends could tell us even more about the dynamics of how an edge breaks down as it wears. I just graphed the two datasets so the trends could be explored a little more, and while I'm not sure they add a ton to your analysis I'll include plots below. While I can't say the plots really show us much about those dynamics, and that could be due to the relative equivalent edge retention of Spyderco K294 and Kizer 10V, perhaps they'll add a little to this story. It does seem possible that careful BESS testing similar to yours with more different steels may in fact reveal dynamics about the differential rates of edge retention loss across different steels.

Thanks again for putting in the work on a cool dataset :respect
kennbr34BESSK294.jpg
kennbr34
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#3

Post by kennbr34 »

barnaclesonaboat wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:42 pm
...I also think that the 5 degree edge difference confounds the results somewhat to the point of blurring my own conclusion, at least inasmuch as being able to isolate the performance difference to just the heat treat.
Yeah, I was a little disappointed that I couldn't keep the geometries closer as well, since edge angle affects things much more than hardness, but fortunately there's at least some data that Larrin has shared and a formula to kind of estimate what those differences may be.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/07/15/ ... fe-steels/

TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) – 17.8*EdgeAngle(°) + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%) + 5.0*Fe3C(%)

So with 10V, it has a MC carbide content of 17.5 so we can simplify that equation down to: -157 + 15.8* HRC – 17.8* Edge Angle + 26.2*17.5

Thought it's not entirely useful without knowing for sure what the hardness of either blade is. I haven't been able to find what the HRC of the K294 Mule is, but according to the post here, viewtopic.php?f=15&t=95343&start=20#p1739058, the A11 Mule was 63-64 HRC. Since 10V = K294 = A11, I would expect K294 to be about the same.

On the other hand, considering Kizer is a budget brand, to me it's pretty reasonable to assume they only hardened it to 58-60 HRC, and that matches the projected TCC with the probable hardness of K294.

27 Degrees
-157 + 15.8*58 – 17.8*27 + 26.2*17 = 724.2 TCC
-157 + 15.8*58.5 – 17.8*27 + 26.2*17 = 732.1 TCC
-157 + 15.8*59 – 17.8*27 + 26.2*17 = 740 TCC
-157 + 15.8*59.5 – 17.8*27 + 26.2*17 = 747.9 TCC
-157 + 15.8*60 – 17.8*27 + 26.2*17 = 755.8 TCC

32 Degrees
-157 + 15.8*63 – 17.8*32 + 26.2*17 = 714.2 TCC
-157 + 15.8*63.5 – 17.8*32 + 26.2*17 = 722.1 TCC
-157 + 15.8*64 – 17.8*32 + 26.2*17 = 730 TCC

So given that I think its a lot less problematic to see them so neck-and-neck even with the 5 degree edge angle difference.
barnaclesonaboat wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:42 pm
Perhaps because I'm data-starved on my own edges and yearn for access to a BESS, I was compelled to explore your data a little more. I started to wonder about the rate of BESS change/cuts, and the nature of such a curve; my thinking was that comparison of BESS data/cuts trends could tell us even more about the dynamics of how an edge breaks down as it wears. I just graphed the two datasets so the trends could be explored a little more, and while I'm not sure they add a ton to your analysis I'll include plots below. While I can't say the plots really show us much about those dynamics, and that could be due to the relative equivalent edge retention of Spyderco K294 and Kizer 10V, perhaps they'll add a little to this story. It does seem possible that careful BESS testing similar to yours with more different steels may in fact reveal dynamics about the differential rates of edge retention loss across different steels.

Thanks again for putting in the work on a cool dataset :respect
kennbr34BESSK294.jpg
Ah thanks for plotting them, I was going to do that as well, but trying to find a good spreadsheet program to do so on Linux.

I think I may go ahead and test from 1000-2000 too, to see if the wear rate remains linear, or if it starts to fall off a little more exponentially as time goes; I just need to check how much BESS test media I have left. It seems like the plot supports what most people observe about vanadium-carbide rich steels, that they lose that fine-sharpness pretty quickly, but then hold a "working edge" for much, much longer. However, it did seem like the sharpness was beginning to drop rather quickly with the data for the K294, but not with the data for the 10V, and I can't really rule out the inconsistencies of my BESS tester being the reason for that. I wish I had one of the newer models to continue to test with instead too.

However, in purely anecdotal terms, I have to say that the edges on both still feel quite sharp. It takes a little pressure to get them to bite into my finger-pads with a three-finger test, but they still cut through printer paper without any snags quite easily. However, if the BESS/cut rates hold linear or increase, then they won't cut much more cardboard before getting above 500 BESS. Though just how "dull" 500 BESS is, is kind of a subjective judgement, and I think it depends heavily on steel type. With high-vanadium steels, the anecdotal evidence seems to support that they break down into a kind of "toothy" edge that remains capable in draw/slicing (sometimes even called "sawing") cuts for quite a while, which the BESS tester doesn't really assess very well. Some people have asserted that's why carbide-rich steels do so well on the CATRA test which mainly tests that style of cutting, so I wonder if BESS testing would kind of equalize those scores between carbide-rich and non-rich steels. Along with that, it also makes me wonder if edge angle affects BESS scores as much as CATRA scores.
Last edited by kennbr34 on Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ykspydiefan
Member
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 9:28 pm

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#4

Post by ykspydiefan »

Thanks for the time and effort. Interesting comparison. And, geeze dude that's a lot of work.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, Catcherman, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
kennbr34
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#5

Post by kennbr34 »

Well I decided to cut until I got into the 400-500 BESS range, and I am glad I did, because it showed that the initial results in the high 300s were just anomalous--you can see it in the spike in the charts below. With the rest of the testing I didn't do BESS testing every 100 cuts, because with those anomalous readings it's just not really useful for getting that much fine-grained details--so you won't see the same spike in the chart for the 10V. I also made sure to take 10-12 BESS measures and average them out, and throw out any that were too out of range with the rest of the set to be averaged. I also switched to testing by the foot instead of by the cut, because I ran out of 8.5" flaps and had to use some 9" ones too, and I wanted to be sure to account for that.

I am a lot more convinced of this BESS score now than previously, because the two knives are finally having trouble cutting paper, and requiring quite a lot of pressure to bite on the 3-finger test. The crazy thing is I think they would still probably cut quite a lot more cardboard just by merit of the geometry alone. I will attach a couple of interpretations of the BESS scale too for people unfamiliar with it.

Image
Image

Image
Image

The final results:

K294 Mule
BESS After 2,125 Feet Cut: 469
BESS Per Foot: .16

10V Sheepdog
BESS After 2,125 Feet Cut: 443
BESS Per Foot: .14
ykspydiefan wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:04 pm
Thanks for the time and effort. Interesting comparison. And, geeze dude that's a lot of work.
You're welcome, it was a nice opportunity to play with my knives and listen to some podcasts :P

I did have to take a photo of the amount of cardboard though. Gonna have to save up a few more Chewy shipments before I can do more testing!

Image
Maremmen Jager
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:38 am
Location: Maremma

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#6

Post by Maremmen Jager »

Nice to read, someone has some comparison with the K390?
User avatar
Giygas
Member
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 3:30 pm
Location: Central New York
Contact:

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#7

Post by Giygas »

Maremmen Jager wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:22 pm
Nice to read, someone has some comparison with the K390?
I'm waiting to get my k390 p4lw, and A11 Mule HRC tested, and hopefully find a knife in Vanadis 8 with similar geometry then I'm gonna do a comparison between a bunch of 10V (and 10V adjacent) class steels.

I have a K2 in 10v at 63.7, and a Maxace in Vanadis 10 at 65 to go along with the MT and p4lw.

I usually don't document anything more than just memory and maybe a few notes in my sharpening journal, but this thread has convinced me to change that.
Currently testing: M398, D3, SLD-Magic
Favorites: 10V, s90v
Wishlist: S290, Vancron, S125V, K890
17 Spydies, 14 steels
13 Maxace, 9 steels

https://instagram.com/cnyknifenut
https://youtube.com/@CNYKnifeNerd
User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 17058
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#8

Post by sal »

Hi Kennbr,

Nice test. Thanx for sharing.

sal
User avatar
Bolster
Member
Posts: 5630
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: CalyFRNia

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#9

Post by Bolster »

Very interesting comparison. Thanks for the report. Using the Larrin regression formula to adjust is clever. Will re-read it again tomorrow!
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
kennbr34
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#10

Post by kennbr34 »

sal wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:40 pm
Hi Kennbr,

Nice test. Thanx for sharing.

sal
Thanks, sal

Curious if you could confirm the HRC figures for the K294 Mules for the sake of using in Larrin's regression formula
User avatar
Larrin
Member
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#11

Post by Larrin »

Fun testing!
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
User avatar
Larrin
Member
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: Spyderco K294 - Kizer 10V Comparison Testing (BESS Data Included)

#12

Post by Larrin »

Giygas wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:00 am
I usually don't document anything more than just memory and maybe a few notes in my sharpening journal, but this thread has convinced me to change that.
Relying on our memories and feelings is very dangerous, as I’ve learned many times looking at records of my own tests. Also comparing things without quantitative values can be surprisingly inaccurate.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
Post Reply