Anyone want to see Vanax in the salt series?

[alphaneuron9]

Its a great steel. Seems under appreciated. What do you guys think?

[Deadboxhero]

Its a great steel. Seems under appreciated. What do you guys think?

It's not underappreciated, its just it's growth was stunted by extreme cost per pound for the material. It is difficult to get that much nitrogen in steel. So a special and very expensive step is added to achieve the high amounts of nitrogen.

The problem for Vanax though is years later MagnaCut came out and shows superior toughness and hardness, finer carbonitirdes, lower cost and also provides extreme corrosion resistance. The way MagnaCut achieved this is through brilliant design and efficiency rather than just blasting the steel with nitrogen.

Vanax is still a very nice material and will have more corrosion resistance then MagnaCut but it's peak hardness is also limited for the same reason it's more corrosion resistance; lots of Cr in solution.

We'll see what Spyderco does.


In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

[alphaneuron9]

Wow. An honor to receive a reply from you. I am a retired neurosurgeon, and got hospitalized for 3 weeks with COVID Jan 2021. Bedridden, I started surfing the web for my childhood hobby, pocket knives. I love the explosion of steel technology that has occurred since the 80s. So I discovered magnacut in 2021. Discovered Larrin Thomas and have corresponded with him on Youtube.

Discovered Vanax in 2022. Of course I picked up a couple of knives in both steels.

Having taken a couple of years worth of chemistry classes for pre-med, I followed Dr. Thomas´explanation pretty well. More Cr in solution instead of forming chromium carbides being the trick. I Love it!

Your insight is awesome. Thanks for the response. So I recently discovered you and 15V, but did not get the chance to buy the shaman nor the manix 2. Hopefully I´ll find one of either soon. Really excited to be corresponding with you.
Thanks.
Alex

[Fireman]

Its a great steel. Seems under appreciated. What do you guys think?

I like the steel for close to the body carry without rusting.

I also love LC200N and am learning to love Magnacut.

I would love to see a premium salt variant with this steel. I’d be happy to pay the extra. That said, I am also excited to see what Spyderco does with its ceramic offerings

[Bolster]

...Vanax is still a very nice material and will have more corrosion resistance then MagnaCut but it's peak hardness is also limited for the same reason it's more corrosion resistance; lots of Cr in solution.....

Thanks for the very lucid explanation.

[Bemo]

Alphaneuron9, good to have you on the board, I tend to be more on the "software" end of things as opposed to the "hardware" end of things that you poke around in. Stick around, great place to hang. I don't expect to see a Vanax Spydie any time soon. I think Shawn has answered that one pretty definitely. I would love to see Larrin do a comparison on just the high corrosion resistant steels. I haven't researched Vanax much and really don't know what it would have to offer over LC200N.

[RustyIron]

In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

This evening's dinner was prepared using a Chad Kelly Vanax knife. The knife is the most beautiful knife I've handled, and it is the best performing kitchen knife that I've ever used. Is the knife awesome because the blade is Vanax? Is the knife awesome because of Chad's artistry? This is a question best left to wiser men than me. But I can tell you, this knife is so good that I'm eager to buy something else in Vanax.

[alphaneuron9]

Alphaneuron9, good to have you on the board, I tend to be more on the "software" end of things as opposed to the "hardware" end of things that you poke around in. Stick around, great place to hang. I don't expect to see a Vanax Spydie any time soon. I think Shawn has answered that one pretty definitely. I would love to see Larrin do a comparison on just the high corrosion resistant steels. I haven't researched Vanax much and really don't know what it would have to offer over LC200N.

Thank you Bemo. Tell me more about "software"... Im not sure I follow the lingo. And thank you for the warm welcome.
Vanax, my friend, has much more edge retention than LC200N, and arguably more than magnacut. In fact, Larrin rates it at a 5.5 compared to magnacut's 5. of course it depends on the heat treatment, but see:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/ ... esistance/

LC has more toughness at 8, magnacut 7, and vanax is 5. But our friend, Shawn BBB has been quoted as saying its not toughness that counts (correct me if Im wrong). At any rate, apparently vanax's hardness is limited around 61 but there are always masters like Shawn that find better heat treatments to bring out the best in a steel. I am really impressed with Vanax, and that's why I brought up the question to you guys. Larrin told me (replied on a youtube comment- so cool, right?) it beat magnacut in his corrosion resistance test, something that I have noticed in daily carry of both steels.

Im no expert at sharpening, but my friend gives me his spydies with LC200N to sharpen, and Ive fixed several broken tips and chips. I have not encountered rolls in LC. No chips, rolls, or broken tips with magnacut nor vanax (yet). Albeit, I do baby the vanax. it was pricey.

For EDC Vanax is great. For hard use though, I'd rather use my magnacut. But I really want to try 15V. Especially after seeing the "short" of Shawn wacking away at the board of wood then shaving hair:
https://youtube.com/shorts/4MbyEVwNC4Q? ... gmVqT5p4-h
Totally awesome!

I love shooting the breeze about knives and steels. Im glad this forum exists.

[wrdwrght]

To the question, I have long wanted to, but with MagnaCut ready to burst forth, I don’t think we’ll see costly Vanax blades sporting an opening hole.

[cabfrank]

I'm sure Vanax would be great, but expensive. I'm sure LC200N, Magnacut and H2 are already great.
That said, I am completely happy with H1.

[SchoonerBum]

I'd love to see it but with Magnacut coming down the pipeline for less money it seems unlikely. It would be pretty neat to see a Vanax Mule or a Sprint though! :-)

[kirilpetkov]

I have used Vanax, but I prefer Nitrobe-77, a very good stainless steel that sharpens extremely easily and is very sharp. I sharpened this knife on a fixed sharpener a long time ago. The last abrasive I think was 1000 diamond and I then went through it on a strop. Yesterday I decided not to put it on a fixed rolling pin at all, just on a strop - 16 micron, 8 micron, 1 micron and finally with 0.125 micron. And that happened in the clip. That's the good thing about this Nitrobe 77 steel that it sharpens extremely easily and sharply.

https://youtu.be/skfSOeuA6bY?si=aq3JRW5DwY69yScd

[alphaneuron9]

Its a great steel. Seems under appreciated. What do you guys think?

It's not underappreciated, its just it's growth was stunted by extreme cost per pound for the material. It is difficult to get that much nitrogen in steel. So a special and very expensive step is added to achieve the high amounts of nitrogen.

The problem for Vanax though is years later MagnaCut came out and shows superior toughness and hardness, finer carbonitirdes, lower cost and also provides extreme corrosion resistance. The way MagnaCut achieved this is through brilliant design and efficiency rather than just blasting the steel with nitrogen.

Vanax is still a very nice material and will have more corrosion resistance then MagnaCut but it's peak hardness is also limited for the same reason it's more corrosion resistance; lots of Cr in solution.

We'll see what Spyderco does.


In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

Do you use alpha knife supply for the steel? I found it looking up prices for vanax. I did get a sense that the premium steels come in more expensive. But since Im new to the knife making side of things I may be missing all kinds of things, like the steel seemed to be sold in blanks for lack of a better word - rectangles that are already flat grounded. not by the pound. well, they don't have vanax in stock. I hope you saw my original response to your first message. Im just figuring out the whole quote system. BTW, I looked up Chad Kelly and Vanax on the web and found the collaboration fillet knife with Lance of "spyderco waterway/siren" fame. Exactly what Ive been looking for: a fillet knife in Vanax... you go fishing on a boat and fillet up the fish at the dock your knife stays wet until you get home. Rust is inevitable. Im pretty stoked... now where do I get one of those... lol.

so you guys see what Im talking about:
https://www.assab.com/app/uploads/sites ... cle_EN.pdf

[alphaneuron9]

In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

This evening's dinner was prepared using a Chad Kelly Vanax knife. The knife is the most beautiful knife I've handled, and it is the best performing kitchen knife that I've ever used. Is the knife awesome because the blade is Vanax? Is the knife awesome because of Chad's artistry? This is a question best left to wiser men than me. But I can tell you, this knife is so good that I'm eager to buy something else in Vanax.

Let's see a pic of that CKelly Vanax kitchen knife!

[alphaneuron9]

I have used Vanax, but I prefer Nitrobe-77, a very good stainless steel that sharpens extremely easily and is very sharp. I sharpened this knife on a fixed sharpener a long time ago. The last abrasive I think was 1000 diamond and I then went through it on a strop. Yesterday I decided not to put it on a fixed rolling pin at all, just on a strop - 16 micron, 8 micron, 1 micron and finally with 0.125 micron. And that happened in the clip. That's the good thing about this Nitrobe 77 steel that it sharpens extremely easily and sharply.

https://youtu.be/skfSOeuA6bY?si=aq3JRW5DwY69yScd

So I had to look up Nitrobe-77 at least in the rankings... where did you get it, is it still available?

Here's a quote from Larrin's website:

"Ranking the Steels

To estimate corrosion resistance I used the following equations which were derived as described above, giving a “chromium equivalent” based on chromium, molybdenum, and tungsten in solution:

Acetic acid = Cr + 0.45(Mo + 0.5W)

Aqua-Regia = Cr + 0.79(Mo + 0.5W)

Pitting potential = Cr + 2.6(Mo+0.5W)"

so they are all calculated not measured (just to get all on the same page). And where pitting potential is calculated using a 1% Salt solution, I think that's what Im going to use as the best we have for predicting rust.


This list is pretty impressive. He seems to have done a lot of legwork to generate it. Pretty cool, L.T. (Just in case he reads this - you never know)

[kirilpetkov]

I have used Vanax, but I prefer Nitrobe-77, a very good stainless steel that sharpens extremely easily and is very sharp. I sharpened this knife on a fixed sharpener a long time ago. The last abrasive I think was 1000 diamond and I then went through it on a strop. Yesterday I decided not to put it on a fixed rolling pin at all, just on a strop - 16 micron, 8 micron, 1 micron and finally with 0.125 micron. And that happened in the clip. That's the good thing about this Nitrobe 77 steel that it sharpens extremely easily and sharply.

https://youtu.be/skfSOeuA6bY?si=aq3JRW5DwY69yScd

So I had to look up Nitrobe-77 at least in the rankings... where did you get it, is it still available?

Here's a quote from Larrin's website:

"Ranking the Steels

To estimate corrosion resistance I used the following equations which were derived as described above, giving a “chromium equivalent” based on chromium, molybdenum, and tungsten in solution:

Acetic acid = Cr + 0.45(Mo + 0.5W)

Aqua-Regia = Cr + 0.79(Mo + 0.5W)

Pitting potential = Cr + 2.6(Mo+0.5W)"

so they are all calculated not measured (just to get all on the same page). And where pitting potential is calculated using a 1% Salt solution, I think that's what Im going to use as the best we have for predicting rust.


This list is pretty impressive. He seems to have done a lot of legwork to generate it. Pretty cool, L.T. (Just in case he reads this - you never know)

I ordered the knife and took it directly from Des Horn.

[alphaneuron9]

I have used Vanax, but I prefer Nitrobe-77, a very good stainless steel that sharpens extremely easily and is very sharp. I sharpened this knife on a fixed sharpener a long time ago. The last abrasive I think was 1000 diamond and I then went through it on a strop. Yesterday I decided not to put it on a fixed rolling pin at all, just on a strop - 16 micron, 8 micron, 1 micron and finally with 0.125 micron. And that happened in the clip. That's the good thing about this Nitrobe 77 steel that it sharpens extremely easily and sharply.

https://youtu.be/skfSOeuA6bY?si=aq3JRW5DwY69yScd

kirilpetkov, Nice! I further looked up Nitrobe 77 and found this very interesting post by Shawn BBB Houston from blade forum:

"Jul 7, 2019

Add bookmark
#1

Thought it would be nice to update the community on the current happenings of Nitrogen steels In 2019.

I am a custom knife maker and I have been personally exploring, testing and utilizing these different nitrogen steels.

The list of Nitrogen steels has grown a bit


Cast ingot "blow by" 0.10-0.15% wt N
H1
4116n
14c28n
Nitro V
BD1N

PESR (Pressurized ESR) ~0.5%wt N
LC200N/Zfinit

PM Nitrided 0.9-1.8% wt N
Nitrobe77
Vanax 37/Superclean
Damasteel DC18N pattern with N11x core
NEW 2019 Vancron Superclean


Most of these steels considered Nitrogen steels don't really have a lot of Nitrogen.

Nitrogen works just like carbon but is not as soluble in the iron and has an affinity for the chromium.

0.10-0.15% is just "blow by" nitrogen over the melt if in cast ingot steels with chromium helping pull it in. Most of the benefits dissolve in solution giving only sight additions/advantages acting like a "carbon booster" for hardness and slight boost in corrosion resistance in some cases. 0.10-0.15%wt is the limit of nitrogen in the steel unless more exotic methods are used.

H1, BD1N, Nitro V, 14c28n, 4116N, etc

Even steels like S125v, S110v and S90V can have this amount of Nitrogen in them.
@nsm
This is due to being atomized with nitrogen gas when making the steel from melt to powder and the Chromium helping pull the Nitrogen in, however the benefits are mostly minuscule in those steels due to the low volume and presence of other alloys taking dominance in the structures formed with time and heat.

Makes one wonder, what IS a nitrogen steel. :D

To get the huge volume of ~0.5% in lc200n they have to pressurize the melt and pump it in using PESR

It's at that level nitrogen level and alloy balance we get Nitrogen dominant martensite rather than carbon rich martensite we see in the 0.10-0.15% wt range "Nitrogen" steels, However the nitrogen is not as effective as carbon in hardness which might give it a sweet spot in sharpening yet also cap the hardness especially when combined with other factors.

However, the Cr2N chromium nitrides are harder than the Cr7C3 chromium carbides.

LC200N happens to not fully dissolve the Cr2N leaving some behind to help boost wear resistance, yet LC200N is also basically capped at 59-60rc due to too much Cr in solution preventing higher matrix hardness when quenching and especially with vacuum furnace quenching speeds combined with softer Nitrogen martensite compared to Carbon rich martensite.

High Nitrogen steels are more prone to "de-nitriding" than carbon steels are to decarbing at Austenizing temps before quenching. Especially in vacuum without increased partial pressure of nitrogen added.

So it's hard to get in the steel and it's easy for it to leave :D

The Nitrided PM steels are the most expensive steels on the market because of an exotic step added.
A quick recap, all PM steels are made by atomizing the molten steel with inert gas (nitrogen/argon) from the molten melt to fine powder collected in a canister andthen re solidified with Hot Isostatic pressing and cut and rolled out to sheets.

Nitrogen steels have the powder Nitrided Before HIP.
They Nitride coat the powder in a vacuum which is a lot more difficult and expensive than it sounds.

After HIP it is rolled out to sheets like other Non PM and PM steels.

This is how they achieve the high volume of Nitrogen in the steel with Vanax, Vancron and Nitrobe77 that is not possible with the other methods.

Which is why Lc200N is caped at ~0.5%wt Nitrogen

Nitrobe77 has 0.9% wt N which it uses some of to make nitrogen martensite like lc200n. Some of that nitrogen total is locked up as Cr2N that dissolves at the temperatures N77 requires to harden. That nitrogen put in solution will become nitrogen martensite when quenched. The nitrogen that did not dissolve stayed behind in a nice, small compliment of Niobium rich nitrides (MN type/NbN) which don't dissolve in the Chromium and Austenite as readily as the Vanadium at the temperatures required to harden Hence why we have Nb dominant MN type. These Nitrides are just not at enough volume to make this steel a "rope killer"

The Nitrobe 77 is unique thanks to it's ability to get harder than the other Nitrogen martensite rich steels like Lc200n thanks to being designed for precipitation strengthening. Using liquid nitrogen cryogenics and multiple high tempers after quenching allows the steel to raise up in HRC each cycle after hardening thanks to converting retained austenite that didn't transform from quenching to hard martensite and also the nitrides precipitating from the martensite and coarsening to the necessary sizes to strengthen the steel to resist displacement and make up for the shrinking of martensite.

It is possibly the best sharpening steel in the world and can operate at 62-64rc, The Nitriding process combined with this chemistry and volume makes a fine structured steel. The wear resistance is not super high however.

Nitrobe77 is one of my favorite steels but unfortunately due to cost, difficulty making at the steel mill and it not being cost effective to heat treat mass production. It has finally been discontinued by Damasteel as of 2018, they kept it alive for a long while.

I feel Des Horn has done some amazing work with Nitrobe 77 and had helped the steel persist for a long time @Deshorn

The Vanax 37/Superclean
(used by Damasteel under the name "N11x" as the core steel for there "San Mai" damacus DC18N)

Vanax is most corrosion resistant steel thanks to the dynamics that allow most of that HUGE chromium content (18% total volume) to be IN solution(15-17%) with a boost of the nitrogen also strengthening the chromium oxide film. We also have higher wear resistance than Lc200n and N77 thanks to the large amount of Vanadium 3.50% and Nitrogen 1.55% (very high)
It creates a mix of nitrogen and carbon martensite.
With carbon being more dominant since most of the Nitrogen is locked up with the Vanadium.

Update 3/4/20 ** there are Complex Multi element Cr2N Chromium Nitrides "M2N" present in the steel after HT. 10% M2N and 4% MN type Vanadium Nitrides. Updated from recent EDS and ThremoCalc work by PhD Larrin Thomas.

Vanax enough nitride volume to boost the wear resistance to S30V/ Elmax levels versus LC200N and Nitrobe77 being lower.


Because of the high amount of chromium in solution the Vanax is also basically capped at 59-60rc. Some heat treatments can boost to 61-62rc but perhaps not worth the effort and trade offs.

My current favorite,
Vancron Superclean is a Non stainless, Nitrided, A11 class, 10v type tool steel. with the carbon reduced and replaced with Nitrogen.

It has the highest amount of Nitrogen of the nitrogen steels at 1.8% wt N




It is the 2019 upgrade over Vancron 40/PUD 167 with the alloy composition redesigned to dissolve all the softer, larger M6C Moly/tungsten rich carbides like the ones found in CPM M4 and have it totally replaced with more of the finer, harder Vanadium Carbonitrdes.


The Chromium volume is low, it is not as stainless steel but designed to be a air hardening tool steel, so it will rust like 10v and K390 but we can also achieve insane matrix hardness 65+HRC since we are not being held back by Chromium in solution.

The martensite is carbon rich unlike LC200N and N77 thanks to the M6C and M23C6 carbides dissolving at lower temperature while austenizing. The nitrogen in Vancron is basically all going towards making Vanadium Nitrides which are not being dissolved and we have all the necessary carbon in solution from the carbides that did. We should also note that the remaining carbon not put in solution is also locked up in Vanadium carbides that are not dissolved just like the nitrides.

Hence why they are called Vanadium Carbonitrdes MX type with the "X" meaning either (C,N)

These Carbonitrdes are richer in Nitrogen however.

Carbonitride volume in the range between Vanadis 8 and K390/10v

The advantages to such an expensive steel is that the Carbonitrdes are much finer ranging at 1um at the largest down to submicron. While these Carbonitrdes are not as hard as pure MC type Vanadium carbides they offer a great sweet spot in between the second hardest carbides and the hardest MC type vanadium carbides.
So technically Vancron Superclean is not as wear resistant as 10v but wear resistance is only one piece of the puzzle.

The MX type Carbonitrdes are finer than carbides just like the nitrides in Vanax and Nitrobe77, this is not purely due to being nitrogen or volume but the Nitriding process forming the Nitrides at lower temps further preventing segregation. From my conversations with Larrin it sounds like if one could "graphize" a steel by adding carbon to an iron rich non carbon powder rich in carbide formers before HIP a simliar effect would happen.

So it's not just the inherit quality of nitrogen itself however nitrogen may provide a good sweet spot for sharpenablity. Currently there are no graphized pm steels available at this time and the cost would be even more insane.

The benefits to Vancron Superclean are that it has the finest carbides at high volume and it can create a very hard matrix making it perfect for thin ,wear resistant edges that will resist deforming yet have improved apex shaping also thanks to Carbonitrde size and Hardnesses compared to steels like 10v.

It's something of a perfect storm for 10-12 dps edges at under 0.010" bte and 65+ HRC for knives designed to cut.

It's the Geometry that does the cutting at the end of the day and the Vancron would provide more edge stability over 10v range steel. We shall see.

I'd like to thank PhD Larrin at "Knife Steel Nerds" for sharing in most of this information in articles and conversations.
His contributions and work are invaluable.

I have been knife testing and applying this knowledge first hand in my custom knife work.


Look forward to sharing more when time allows


BBB
Shawn"

fascinating stuff. This is from 2019 and the current iteration of vanax was just coming out, I think. note he makes referrence to vanax 37. back then there was also vanax 75, both discontinued after the current iteration came out.

Ive been reading up on the nitrogen steels, as corrosion resistance is important to me (I live on an island). At any rate, both Shawn and Larrin made a video together that discusses such steels. Funny, through out my readings, and youtube videos, Larrin seems to prefer high carbon steels over stainless over nitrogen steels, saying N makes the steel softer...

which in and of itself is a complicated point as Shawn argues the other nuance where N can make a steel harder. LOL

Its a fun nuance to observe as each of these titans of knife making/knife knowledge reveal in the most subtle of ways their preferrences. :+)

[RustyIron]

Let's see a pic of that CKelly Vanax kitchen knife!

I can do that. But I first and to go down to the kitchen and make some good light. I didn't bother polishing it up because this is a real kitchen knife. You're seeing the way she is in her native environment.

The handle is desert ironwood, titanium, and G10. The saya is maple, nickel, and copper. She's as beautiful to use as she is to look at.

[alphaneuron9]

Let's see a pic of that CKelly Vanax kitchen knife!

I can do that. But I first and to go down to the kitchen and make some good light. I didn't bother polishing it up because this is a real kitchen knife. You're seeing the way she is in her native environment.

The handle is desert ironwood, titanium, and G10. The saya is maple, nickel, and copper. She's as beautiful to use as she is to look at.




IMG_2427.jpeg

So beautiful. I love ironwood and the design is eye catching. Very very nice. Im glad I asked.

IMG_2428.jpeg


IMG_2432.jpeg

[alphaneuron9]

I haven't seen this written out on the web, so I am writing it here: A comparison of the current super corrosion resistant knife steels or rust proof* knife steels in the market today**.

1. Vanax 2. H1 3. LC200N 4. Magnacut (in order of corrosion resistance).

1.Vanax 2. Magnacut 3. LC200N 4. H1 (in order of edge retention).

1.H1 2.LC200N 3.Magnacut 4. Vanax (in order of toughness).

Sources:
1. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/ ... esistance/
2. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/14/ ... esistance/
3. https://www.bladehq.com/blog/knife-steel-guide/

*none are rust proof per se. But the top 2 may be rust proof to ocean water in at least in the order of months of exposure based on anecdotal accounts throughout the web and personal experience. the most corrosion resistant steels. rust proof steels.
**that I know of based on the sources provided. Please feel free to add any I may have left out.

I am not sure how they compare to marine stainless steels of which there are many. My understanding is that those do not hold an edge.

Important edit: I know H2 is now available in the market, and H1 has been discontinued, however, not much data is available on H2, H1 is still available as the residual stocks at various dealers/outlets remain, and H2 was designed to replace H1 and may end up "interchangeable" pending further testing with regards to the rankings.