A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
zuludelta
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A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#1

Post by zuludelta »

For the past twelve years or so, I have almost exclusively carried and used a Spyderco as my personal and work cutting tool, though I will reach for the odd Benchmade every now and then and I have a North Arm Knives Skaha 2 that is my “classy folder”. The ongoing revolution in the knife industry—with the influx of various new brands from China and American boutique brands who outsource production exclusively to Chinese OEMs—has largely passed me by. This has been of my own accord. I have just been too satisfied and content with the value and performance I get from my Spyderco knives that I saw little need to try the offerings of newer and trendier overseas makers, opting instead to vicariously sample them through reviews posted on social media.

I happened on a very good deal on a folder from a reputable Chinese manufacturer a couple of months ago however, and was very pleasantly surprised at how well it performed given its material construction and retail cost, so much so that I purchased a number of other models from the same brand and other reputable Chinese makers, just to try them out (all the knives I purchased were licensed designs from individuals with an established history in the industry, and were not anonymous “in-house” designs). For the past five weeks, I have been using these folders at work instead of my usual complement of Spydercos, and I have come to some thoughts and observations I thought worth sharing with the forum:

  • The knives I used made by reputable Chinese manufacturers are of reasonably good quality at a price that's difficult to beat: “Made in China” has long been a pejorative among consumers in general. Whether or not this is justified is difficult to say with any real conclusiveness since so much of the world’s industrial-scale manufacturing is outsourced to China that almost every mass-produced hand tool, regardless of its ultimate quality, can be said to be made in the nation or have parts that are manufactured in China. What I can say for certain however, is that the fit and finish of the non-Spyderco knives I used was excellent for the most part. This wasn’t entirely a surprise for me, as I have had good experiences with Spyderco’s Chinese-made value folders such as the Tenacious and the Polestar as well as the Meadowlark 2 and Cara Cara 2 of Spyderco’s Byrd Knives sub-brand.
  • Spyderco’s status as an industry leader in design and materials innovation is still very much secure: One thing I noticed about the product line-up of the Chinese manufacturers whose knives I tried out was the absolute glut of models they produced. Ironically, despite the literal hundreds of products in their catalogues, there seems to be a paucity of diversity and genuine innovation in their designs (I’m sorry, releasing the same drop-point liner-lock flipper in six different handle colours and a choice of G10 or Micarta scales doesn’t count). I get it, not every knife can feature some unique design element, new technology, or high-performance steel, but so many of their products look and feel like lazy variations on an established theme or can even be called out as outright derivative.
  • There are a lot of designers out there whom I’d love to see collaborate with Spyderco in the future: While many of the Chinese manufacturers’ product line-ups are somewhat homogenous in terms of design, there exist stand-out pieces among them, designed by people I’d be interested to see collaborate with Spyderco some day. Some of these designers include Ostap Hel, Sebastian Irawan, Justin Gingrich, Michal Gavac, Matt Roach, Azo Mai, and Matt Christensen.
  • Spyderco’s real strength lies in its commitment to CQI: Most of the non-Spyderco knives I used over the past month were perfectly acceptable as work knives, with maybe a few details here and there that I think could be changed to improve the overall user experience. But these manufacturers’ market strategy seems to rely so much on flooding the market with one-offs and using novelty as a sales gimmick that I don’t know if any future designs I acquire from them will benefit from lessons learned. When I buy a Spyderco (particularly an "evergreen" model), I know that its design and manufacture has been informed by invaluable institutional knowledge gained from years of iteration, open communication with the user community, and constant quality improvement. I am certain that these Chinese makers also strive to build on their previous design successes (a modern manufacturer would be foolish not to do so), but there is less transparency to their approach, at least from where I am sitting.
  • Ethical sourcing and production still matter to me, but the practical reality is complicated: There is an Amazon advertisement currently airing on Canadian TV that really salts my apples. In it, a man mocks people who pay more for an item, saying that even a child would know that paying less for something is always the way to go. Funnily enough, I think that ad also unwittingly discredits its message. Indeed, only a child would strictly view economic transactions in such basic terms. I don’t want to conjure up the elephant in the room that is political discussion in this thread, so let me just say that I would gladly pay more (within reason, of course) to support a company that I know supports various medical research and support initiatives, values the contributions of first responders and active and retired service members, treats and compensates its employees fairly, and is headquartered in a country where consensus civil and political rights are recognized and compliance with health, safety, employment, and environmental regulations is the standard. But the modern world, with its tangled web of logistics, makes compromise—intentional or not—an inevitability for all but the most ethically resolute, and the fact that Spyderco outsources some of its production to China does make me feel some kind of way, even as I freely admit to enjoying models like the Tenacious and the Polestar. Ultimately, I'm in no position to judge how other knife enthusiasts spend their hard-earned money and all I can realistically do as a consumer is make informed buying decisions that I can live with, and in terms of my knife hobby, that means preferentially buying Spyderco over certain other brands, and choosing Golden, Seki City, Taiwan, and Italy-made models within that envelope whenever I can.


Anyway, my apologies for getting long-winded (even more than usual), and thanks for reading this far.

[EDITED 8/9/23 for formatting]
Last edited by zuludelta on Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ChrisinHove
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#2

Post by ChrisinHove »

Great post.


As an aside, I’ve been Spyderco free for a few days. I dare not carry any blade flying or into monuments, so it’s been a bladeless SAK this week…Image
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#3

Post by James Y »

Excellent post!

I've never gotten into the trend of quality Chinese-made
knives. Some of them look great, and of very high quality. But there's just something about them that keeps me away. As you say, their strategy of flooding the market with one-offs turns me off, and to me it makes the knives seem "soulless," for lack of a better word. Which is not logical, because knives don't have souls.

There's a lot behind Spyderco's designs that gives me an impression of them being dynamic and "alive," and purpose-driven. And if they stay in the lineup long enough, likely to evolve. I don't get the impression that the flood of designs made by companies in China have that same thought process and potential behind them. Then again, I may be wrong.

I don't know; I'd best stop posting any more of my nonsense ...

Jim
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#4

Post by spydergoat »

I like how you put it: "informed by invaluable institutional knowledge gained from years of iteration, open communication with the user community, and constant quality improvement." There is real value in this. While sales obviously must drive the business, I don't think any Spyderco has been designed for the sole purpose of selling the most units. I think they are also knife nuts that are trying to get something really good into people's hands and to push the envelope.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#5

Post by Subverto »

These days it seems we have very few opportunities to buy American made products. In many market segments an American made option doesn't even exist (computers, cell phones, tvs, etc). Given the fact that I'm essentially forced to buy Chinese products in many cases, I can't in good conscious ever choose a Chinese made product when there are quality made American options.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#6

Post by ladybug93 »

i've got some really great chinese knives and their value is off the charts compared to anything from spyderco, to include the value line. something about spyderco though... i really appreciate the design elements and historical significance of the brand. i'm sure i'll always be a fan.
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ImHereForTheMilitary2
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#7

Post by ImHereForTheMilitary2 »

Excellent post. I'm a bit more finicky and prefer American steel, but I'll carry Japan or Taiwan if it's a Spyderco. Ever since I first laid hands on a Spyderco I haven't wanted to carry anything else. Only Spyderco feels natural in my hand and pocket now. They ruined me for all other knives.

Up until I discovered Spyderco a knife was just a simple tool to me. Not an object of interest. When I needed a new knife, I would find one at a decent price with decent ratings and carry it until the scales fell off. And then I held my first Spyderco. A friend had an old pm2 that I asked to borrow and it was like the scene in Harry Potter when he bought his wand (don't judge I have kids)

Of course I had seen Spyderco before then. I knew about them for years and years, but never bothered to so much as consider the weird looking expensive knives. I used to scoff and refuse to spend so much on a knife. Until I held one and that changed everything, and here I am.

That said, I havent gone even a single day of my life without carrying a knife of some kind since I was in middle school in the 80's (and yes, back then we could carry Swiss army knives to school without a problem). I used to wear my trusty victorinox ranger in a handsome leather sheath on my belt to school without fail, and would often spend time in wood shop whittling with it, with the permission and encouragement of the teacher.

It's surreal how that was so normal and natural back then and such a foreign idea today.

Anyway I digress. The point is I would feel naked without some kind of knife on me. And since I met Golden, I need to carry at least one Spyder even if it's a supplement to another knife.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#8

Post by ImHereForTheMilitary2 »

Dammit now I'm getting nostalgic and fell the need to buy a ranger (to supplement golden, of course)
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#9

Post by mikey177 »

There's some nice stuff coming out of Chinese knife factories these days, but I have limited my purchases of these to a handful of designs that I really like, because of the geopolitical situation that my country is in with China. I won't say more than this as I know it's against forum rules.

I would be interested in Spyderco collabs with more designers, and will continue to patronize this company because I like the values and intergity that its owners have shown over the years.

I hope that Spyderco continues to thrive in the increasingly competitive cutlery market, and I wish everyone at Golden all the best.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#10

Post by zuludelta »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:25 pm
Great post.
Thanks, I appreciate the positive feedback!
James Y wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:47 pm
There's a lot behind Spyderco's designs that gives me an impression of them being dynamic and "alive," and purpose-driven. And if they stay in the lineup long enough, likely to evolve. I don't get the impression that the flood of designs made by companies in China have that same thought process and potential behind them. Then again, I may be wrong.
spydergoat wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:52 pm
I like how you put it: "informed by invaluable institutional knowledge gained from years of iteration, open communication with the user community, and constant quality improvement." There is real value in this. While sales obviously must drive the business, I don't think any Spyderco has been designed for the sole purpose of selling the most units. I think they are also knife nuts that are trying to get something really good into people's hands and to push the envelope.
How I would explain it is that there seems to be less stringent of a filter when it comes to what designs are actually put into production by the major Chinese manufacturers. There are outstanding models to be found in their product line-ups to be sure, but more often than not they are buried in a morass of affordable but absolutely generic and uninspired knife "products", borderline clones/knock-offs, and the latest in fidget pocket jewelry.
Subverto wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:07 pm
These days it seems we have very few opportunities to buy American made products. In many market segments an American made option doesn't even exist (computers, cell phones, tvs, etc). Given the fact that I'm essentially forced to buy Chinese products in many cases, I can't in good conscious ever choose a Chinese made product when there are quality made American options.
mikey177 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:44 pm
There's some nice stuff coming out of Chinese knife factories these days, but I have limited my purchases of these to a handful of designs that I really like, because of the geopolitical situation that my country is in with China. I won't say more than this as I know it's against forum rules.
As Nick Shabazz is fond of saying, quality is about effort and not geography. I broadly agree with this sentiment, in that I try my best to maintain consistent standards for what I consider to be a good work knife, regardless of whether a knife is made in the United States, Canada, Japan, Taiwan, Italy, Sweden, Germany, Russia, the Czech Republic, or China. At the same time, I would be lying if I said that I never allow considerations of geography (or more accurately, geopolitics) to play a role in my purchase decisions. I try to be a conscientious and responsible consumer insofar as my personal economics allow me to do so.
ImHereForTheMilitary2 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 7:17 pm
Up until I discovered Spyderco a knife was just a simple tool to me. Not an object of interest.
This mirrors my experience as well. Before I got my first Spyderco, I never thought to carry a folding knife for work apart from the one that already came with my Leatherman multitool. Or if I did carry one, it would be some budget model that offered only marginally better performance (if that) compared to a basic multitool knife.
ladybug93 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:32 pm
i've got some really great chinese knives and their value is off the charts compared to anything from spyderco, to include the value line. something about spyderco though... i really appreciate the design elements and historical significance of the brand. i'm sure i'll always be a fan.
The major Chinese makers definitely offer an outsanding value proposition with regards to the materials and execution of their best models, and this is a positive to the extent that it lowers the barrier of entry for knife enthusiasts with less means to get their hands on high-quality knives. Given China's low labour costs, competitive currency practices, and documented history of regulatory non-compliance, I doubt that Spyderco can realistically compete at the price brackets dominated by the major Chinese manufacturers. But I don't think it's in Spyderco's best interest to engage in a race to the bottom, anyway. It's a race they don't have a hope of winning without serious compromises that would be detrimental to Spyderco's brand equity. What Spyderco needs to focus on, instead, is consistently demonstrating to consumers that its models are worth the premium because of its continuing innovations in designs and materials and its unflagging commitment to CQI, quality control, and customer relations.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#11

Post by vandelay »

zuludelta wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:21 pm
Ironically, despite the literal hundreds of products in their catalogues, there seems to be a paucity of diversity and genuine innovation in their designs (I’m sorry, releasing the same drop-point liner-lock flipper in six different handle colours and a choice of G10 or Micarta scales doesn’t count). I get it, not every knife can feature some unique design element, new technology, or high-performance steel, but so many of their products look and feel like lazy variations on an established theme or can even be called out as outright derivative.
Yeah, this is something I've felt when I've looked through knife catalogs. I usually look through the new items being added to the knife store I frequent and I see a ton of new knives coming in all the time from chinese manufaturers, but I have only once have actually put one of their products on the maybe list. Most of the designs I see are fine and come in a decent grade of steel, but they don't offer anything special that would make me want to use it over my current knife. I have a bunch of spydercos because they all offer unusual ergonomics and/or an unusual steel. I really don't see a lot of that elsewhere.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#12

Post by Matus »

Excellent post, I personally see it pretty much the same way.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#13

Post by RamZar »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:25 pm
I dare not carry any blade flying or into monuments, so it’s been a bladeless SAK this week…

Bladeless SAK!?

SAK was my introduction to folding knives and I’ve lost many throughout the years and still have many.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#14

Post by RamZar »

There are many great American knife manufacturers which dedicate their design, labor and all materials to be made in the US.

One is the US made Spyderco knives. Other top notch ones are Benchmade, Kershaw/ZT, Hogue, etc.

Spyderco does have knives which are also made in China, Japan, Taiwan and Italy.

There are certain designs where reputable Chinese knife manufacturers shine in materials and quality like WE and Reate. The higher end models mostly use US steels like 20CV and S35VN. If those designs were made in the US by any of the aforementioned US companies I’d buy from them within reason.
  • I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
  • You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#15

Post by ImHereForTheMilitary2 »

ladybug93 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:32 pm
i've got some really great chinese knives and their value is off the charts compared to anything from spyderco, to include the value line. something about spyderco though... i really appreciate the design elements and historical significance of the brand. i'm sure i'll always be a fan.
Heresy. Nothing beats Spyderco! :rofl
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#16

Post by Albertaboyscott »

I don't touch Chinese made knives or anything else if I can help it. I don't have anything against the people, I just am making a conscious effort to try and keep my spending more north american.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#17

Post by Dnwrghtsr »

I went and priced Reate. No thanks I’ll stay with Spyderco.
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Bob L.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#18

Post by Bob L. »

I see lots of nice designs and great steel made in China; but for me it's the heat treatment. I can always trust Spyderco to get the heat treatment right whereas I'm not that confident in Chinese heat treatment.
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#19

Post by zuludelta »

Bob L. wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:17 am
I see lots of nice designs and great steel made in China; but for me it's the heat treatment. I can always trust Spyderco to get the heat treatment right whereas I'm not that confident in Chinese heat treatment.
The two biggest Chinese makers (one whose name rhymes with "miser", the other whose name rhymes with "me") are pretty consistent with their heat treats from what I've read in other forums & seen on social media. But yeah, the smaller ones have had incidents where they've been called out for inconsistent heat treats, the most notable one I remember from a few years back was when Pete from the Cedric & Ada YouTube channel had a D2 knife from some maker tested for hardness after it severely underperformed in his (in)famous sisal rope cutting trial & it came back with an hRC in the mid-50s.

Italian factories have a reputation for running their steels pretty soft as well. There was this kerfuffle 3 or 4 years ago when a prominent Italian company's premium traditional pattern folder in M390 tested out with an hRC of 56 or 57, I think. And I have personal anecdotal circumstantial evidence of this, too. I was reprofiling a premium Italian-made knife in N690 and it was just impossible to deburr: the burr just kept getting knocked back & forth, a clear indication of a less-than-optimal hardness (I'm not a professional sharpener, but I've successfully reprofiled N690 multiple times before with relative ease).

An American company had its heat treat consistency questioned recently as well. A YouTube channel that regularly tests knives for composition and hardness had one of the company's 20CV folders test out with a hardness of 57 or thereabouts.

That said, I always take reports like this with a grain of salt, as it's not always clear who is doing the testing: are these actual labs doing the testing, or is it just some guy in his garage, you know?
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Re: A Month Without Spyderco: Thoughts & Observations

#20

Post by kennethsime »

Great report, thanks Zulu.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
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