Handle forward/lock mashup ideas

[Bemo]

I thought it might be fun to play around mashing up some knife designs using different locks and handle forward designs. Can incorporate/modify existing designs as you'd like. My entry was inspired by Vivi actually and his hand-drawn design for a modified Manix and his current infatuation with the Resilience. I thought, hmmm handle-forward Manix gets you to a Tenacious/Resilience with a CBBL almost. Looking at my Tenacious I think there's room for a CBBL and the blade length is actually longer.

What other cool handle forward/CBBl designs would folks think desireable?

There's a lot of creative folks out there with an eye for design, let's have some fun with this.

[p_atrick]

Delica. It is already a wonderful knife and the added edge would make it even better. Same thing if the Pac Salt 2 in LC200N were to be handle forward.

[Wartstein]

Delica. It is already a wonderful knife and the added edge would make it even better. Same thing if the Pac Salt 2 in LC200N were to be handle forward.

But would it actually get more edge just through the handle forward design?

Honest question, I don´t know the answer, but it could be that it would get just more HANDLE that would cover the ricasso, but the edge would remain about the same length?

I mean look at the Rock / Leaf Jumper: Great "handle forward" models, no doubt, but actually really not a good edge-to-handle ratio, and this is only partly due to the fact that the blades are not as long (= handle-filling) as they could be.

My favorite example to show what I mean:

Stretch 1 (disco´ed) vs Rockjumper:

Both with a closed length of length of about 4.44 " (actually the Stretch 1 even a bit less than the RJ) - Rockjumper handle forward design, Stretch 1 even with a choil
But: Cutting edge Stretch 1: 3.2"; cutting edge Rock Jumper: Just 2.85" (when it comes to the bladelength :Stretch 1 3.5", RJ 3.08")

This would change a bit if the RJ had a more handle filling blade, but still it could never get the ratios of the Stretch 1.

So: Handle forward in a backlock probably does not mean inherently "longer blade/edge"...?

[p_atrick]

But would it actually get more edge just through the handle forward design?

Honest question, I don´t know the answer, but it could be that it would get just more HANDLE that would cover the ricasso, but the edge would remain about the same length?

No idea, but you are probably right. I prefer a handle that is a bit larger than the blade. Comfort, to me, is more important that ratios. So let's say a handle-froward Delica has the same cutting edge but a slightly longer handle. This is still a win in my book.

UPDATE - What about the Chaparral? It doesn't rely on ricasso to protect the blade in the closed position. Perhaps the choil could be replaced with sharpened blade due to the internal stop pins.

[Wartstein]

But would it actually get more edge just through the handle forward design?

Honest question, I don´t know the answer, but it could be that it would get just more HANDLE that would cover the ricasso, but the edge would remain about the same length?

No idea, but you are probably right. I prefer a handle that is a bit larger than the blade. Comfort, to me, is more important that ratios. So let's say a handle-froward Delica has the same cutting edge but a slightly longer handle. This is still a win in my book.

UPDATE - What about the Chaparral? It doesn't rely on ricasso to protect the blade in the closed position. Perhaps the choil could be replaced with sharpened blade due to the internal stop pins.

While in a general EDC model I personally tend to look for a good edge (more than blade to handle ratio, I totally agree that generally a "roomy", generous handle is a nice thing to have .

So, even though I don´t mind at all choking up on its ricasso, a Delica with the exact same edge length would be even better for me ẃith a "handle forward" that covered that ricasso.

I have a feeling (and RJ / LJ show this) that THIS is what the handle forward design mainly does (when we´re talking backlocks!) - offering a more generous handle, much more so than an actual longer blade/edge.
Which is still a good thing of course!!

/ Chap: I figure you´re right - but if they kept the current design, but with the edge all the way to the handle: Those who like to use the "drop the blade on your forefinger" backlock closing method would probably get cut a lot?!

[Bolster]

My entry was inspired by Vivi actually and his hand-drawn design for a modified Manix and his current infatuation with the Resilience.

Did you see my Vivi-inspired sketch for a choil-less Native Chief? Lotta edge there, my friends. No you do NOT want to drop the blade on your forefinger to close it! (Not to be critical, but that's something I'd never do; I don't care how big or blunt the choil is! I have a strict no-fingers-under-the-blade closing routine and I'm sticking with it.)

[Wartstein]

My entry was inspired by Vivi actually and his hand-drawn design for a modified Manix and his current infatuation with the Resilience.

Did you see my Vivi-inspired sketch for a choil-less Native Chief? Lotta blade there, my friends.

Yes, but as long as many people do use the "drop the blade on the forefinger" closing method with backlocks, that edge all the way to the handle Chief would not be a real option I guess.. it does look great, but not like an actual "handle forward" design.

I think "handle forward" with a backlock does exactly NOT mean giving the knife more edge by turning the choil/ ricasso into cutting edge- but rather extending the HANDLE over that ricasso/choil area (which consequently does not necessarily make for more cutting edge).

[Bolster]

I think "handle forward" with a backlock does exactly NOT mean giving the knife more edge by turning the choil/ ricasso into cutting edge- but rather extending the HANDLE over that ricasso/choil area (which consequently does not necessarily make for more cutting edge).

Yeah, I read your explanation above, and if handle-forward doesn't translate into more edge, then I really don't care about it. I'm not a fan of ever-increasing handle-itis, since I put pocket knives in my pocket, where space is at a premium. If a handle is so small it creates discomfort in an hour of use, I don't care; I use a pocketed knife for maybe a minute at a time. (If a knife will be in my hand for an hour or more, I reach for a fixie or a saw.) But I do like the idea of at least some of the big blades having no choil and more edge. That's what I buy a big knife for...lots of edge, not lots of handle. On a folding knife, you're always going to have >50% handle, which means, on large handles, there's plenty of space, unless you're the Jolly Green Giant. I don't see the need for more handle on large knives. But more edge? Yes.

[Bolster]

Yes, but as long as many people do use the "drop the blade on the forefinger" closing method with backlocks, that edge all the way to the handle Chief would not be a real option I guess..

Have we gotten to the place where, since some people drop a blade onto their finger to close it, now ALL blades must have a mondo sized ricasso built in as a safety feature? Is the Barong the future, due to safety concerns? Are we looking at ever-larger ricassos with ever-smaller edges? I sure hope not, but I suppose nannies across the world would approve.

[skeeg11]

This is why God gave us finger nails. Keratin is tough stuff.

[vivi]

Part of me wonders if its possible to eliminate the kick completely on a model like the Pacific Salt and give it an internal stop pin like the chap to hold the blade in the correct closed position.

But then I'm not sure how you'd engineer a self closing bias in that case.

It's something I've been thinking about the past couple of years. How to engineer a knife like a Resilience with a lockback.

Yes, but as long as many people do use the "drop the blade on the forefinger" closing method with backlocks, that edge all the way to the handle Chief would not be a real option I guess..

Have we gotten to the place where, since some people drop a blade onto their finger to close it, now ALL blades must have a mondo sized ricasso built in as a safety feature? Is the Barong the future, due to safety concerns? Are we looking at ever-larger ricassos with ever-smaller edges? I sure hope not, but I suppose nannies across the world would approve.

I don't think designs should be restrained based on how some people choose to close their knives. There's at least 5 other ways to close these types of models.

[Wartstein]

Yes, but as long as many people do use the "drop the blade on the forefinger" closing method with backlocks, that edge all the way to the handle Chief would not be a real option I guess..

Have we gotten to the place where, since some people drop a blade onto their finger to close it, now ALL blades must have a mondo sized ricasso built in as a safety feature? Is the Barong the future, due to safety concerns? Are we looking at ever-larger ricassos with ever-smaller edges? I sure hope not, but I suppose nannies across the world would approve.

Well, when it comes to backlocks we pretty much have been at that place for a long time now as far as I can see.

Even Sal himself said that some safety area (that inevitable costs a bit of edge length, being it due to a ricasso, choil, or a longer handle that covers a ricasso) is a feature that almost has to be there in a backlock Spydie - precisely because many (most?) people use that "drop the blade on the forefinger" one handed closing method. Despite, as Vivi points out, there are several more (and imo better!) one handed closing methods for a backlock .

[im25feetup]

A lightweight Leafjumper Salt XL with a CBBL would be great knife.

[Bemo]

Thanks im25feetup, that's the spirit, I love that idea!

[Cl1ff]

I have a few designs, but I try not to daydream out loud too much. Sal has advised that posting images of designs online is not a good idea.
I think mashups would be fine though because they’re just modifications to already existing knife models.

Since we’re here…
A while ago, when I was talking a little about a design of mine, Sal suggested I submit it and told me who to contact.
Since then, I have significantly improved and refined the design and my own skills and standards. When Sal gave me the time of day, I was humbled and encouraged.

Anyway, it’s very interesting to draw locking mechanisms. One of my designs is a handle forward lockback. It’s ricasso is a little different than the Rockjumper’s to make the design work (I think). It’s a bit tricky because I want a particular handle shape and the blade is a large, choiless, Reverse-S. The edge that comes right up to the handle with no ricasso at all and it ended up with pretty good ratios. I also don’t want it to be too wide or have an overly toothy grin when closed, if you know what I mean.
I’m still tweaking and finalizing. It would be cool if convert to a digital model and 3D print it.

The name can be almost as challenging as the design. I was calling it the “Terror Byrd”, but Sal pointed out that name is not suitable, then I was going more specific by calling it “Titanis” (a kind of Terror Bird). Now I’ve settled on “Titaness” which is a slightly less direct reference to the bird and a less common version of the word which retains a similar pronunciation.

As I said, I have a few others, including a button compression lock that does not require a choil. However, I would not exactly call it “Handle Forward”.
On the larger knives, I try find a handle shape that wouldn’t feel too big/impractical for some people while still being comfortable for larger hands. I’m very particular about sharpening choils and ricassos, if any and if the design allows it.

So many sketches! I have filled multiple folders by now.

I can’t claim full authorship to many of my designs because I’m honestly going off of innovations from knifemakers like Sal, Eric, etc.
I learned how to design locks by referencing Spydercos and making them work in my drawings. In my opinion, that is more like a collaboration and I can’t claim much of any credit because I’m copying the masters.
It’s Sal’s Handle Forward concept, Sal’s Reverse-S concept, Spyderco’s opening hole, Spydercos lockback, etc.
I’m just drawing these things in my style as a hobby.

Those are some of my thoughts.

My biggest hopes for the handle forward back locks are the Salt Series, Byrd knives versions, and the likely more dreamy possibility of contoured FRN.
I recently got my best sharpness yet with my K390 Leafumper. It didn’t even need the touch up after hacking through a bunch of invasive saplings that grow like weeds in my yard. If you can get a good deal on one, I can’t praise the Jumpers enough.

[ladybug93]

you could still drop this on your finger as long as you had your finger all the way forward in the handle. it looks like the cutting edge wouldn't hit you.

[derangedhermit]

For me, every design with a half blade, half handle finger choil would be much better in use if the handle was shaped like an Endura / Delica / Rockjumper / Lil Temp 3 LW style that starts where the actual cutting edge ends.

[aicolainen]

you could still drop this on your finger as long as you had your finger all the way forward in the handle. it looks like the cutting edge wouldn't hit you.

Could work. It works on the Siren. And while the Siren does indeed have a slight ricasso, it also has a larger guard that forces your index finger further back from the pivot.

[aicolainen]

Did you see my Vivi-inspired sketch for a choil-less Native Chief? Lotta edge there, my friends. No you do NOT want to drop the blade on your forefinger to close it! (Not to be critical, but that's something I'd never do; I don't care how big or blunt the choil is! I have a strict no-fingers-under-the-blade closing routine and I'm sticking with it.)

There’s no arguing that this is the safer way, on paper at least.
One reason backlocks has become my prefered lock over time, is just how safe and consistently I can one hand operate them under all conditions. When my hands are wet, cold and I hardly feel my fingers, I appreciate how I with very little fine motor skill can keep a firm and safe grip around the handle, push my index finger all the way up against the guard and disengage the lock. It’s a really simple operation that easily becomes second nature. I realize how far fetched this scenario must be for you desert creatures, but for me this is a very likely scenario more than 6 months of the year. And it has yet to be the reason for me cutting myself.

Besides this small deviation in our routines, we seem to consistently value the same properties in folding knives. I can’t think of a circumstance where I’d choose to carry a folder, where carry comfort wouldn’t be a bigger priority than comfort during prolonged use. And yeah, as much edge as possible in any given handle is almost always better, but - and I hesitate to say this; I’d most likely want a little bit of ricasso (or choil for the smaller ones) on most of my backlocks for the reason mentioned above. But I’d still be open to, and even championing any effort to see how far the backlock design can be pushed with regards to edge/handle ratio.

[Bolster]

I have a few designs, but I try not to daydream out loud too much. Sal has advised that posting images of designs online is not a good idea.

I would guess that Sal would not attempt to shut down thought, discussion, and creativity by laying down an injunction against sketches of ideas on the forum. But I can imagine him advising an actual knife designer to keep his own designs close to the chest so they aren't stolen. The context is important here. I don't want to see creative ideas chilled, as "Sal said" is a powerful (and sometimes misused) rhetorical device on this forum.

My sketch of a choilless Nat Chief is just that, a quick thoughtless sketch, not a "knife design." Took all of 40 seconds. Not even sure the pivot/hinge would work as drawn. Presented to stimulate discussion only. Not a knife designer, and never intend to be one.

...Even Sal himself said that some safety area (that inevitable costs a bit of edge length, being it due to a ricasso, choil, or a longer handle that covers a ricasso) is a feature that almost has to be there in a backlock Spydie...

Sad, if true. Sounds like the lawyers are designing the knives. Do you recall where Sal said this?