Why are seki city spydercos so different?

[WyoJon]

As a lover of seki city spydercos, having carried many for years, and having a drawer full of them now, i am wondering why other companies havent copied them. Spyderco doesnt even own the factory that makes them. They did not invent the materials they are made of. The seki city spyderco format of solid vg10 or h1 with an amazing frn handle is the most versatile and indestructable knife on the market, yet no other knife designs we see in this country even come close. Why is this? We see buck, kershaw, gerber, crkt all make cheap import knives in similar price range yet far inferior.

And why is it such simple lightweight knives make the best work knives? Ive carried them all over north america, for vacation and work in every environment imaginable, and never had a single failure. Even working outside in -25 deg weather many times. Why do the golden spyderco designs have such a different formula than the seki city ones? To me, an frn serrated spyderco is the perfection of what a utility knife should be.

[sal]

Hi WyoJon,

I'm not sure I understand your point. The makers in Seki City that make knives for Spyderco did not invent any of the materials they use. They use the materials that we tell them to use. They don't design the models. They build the designs that we give them to build. They build to standards that we set. Just about all of the FRN models with VG-10 were designed/created by Eric or me.

Are you suggesting that other knife companies simply copy Spyderco?

sal

[capt.carl]

I think he’s saying the seki knives are unique compared to all the other knives out there, and he is wondering why only seki makes them that way for spyderco. Am i correct, OP?

[Bolster]

At the risk of diverting the thread, is there a list somewhere of the Moki and Sakai knives? My list is I think very incomplete. Are there other makers that get grouped into "Seki City" or is it just those two?

Regards working with Asian companies, my wife did that for years, and I totally "get" how Spyderco is the brain and the Seki companies are the hands. The companies (if they're good) do as they are directed to do, they are not autonomous.

[Enactive]

At the risk of diverting the thread, is there a list somewhere of the Moki and Sakai knives? My list is I think very incomplete. Are there other makers that get grouped into "Seki City" or is it just those two?

As i understand Sakai and Moki (in smaller volumes) do folders and fixed blades including some kitchen knives. Masahiro does most of the main line kitchen knives.

[Danke]

I can see 2 parts to this.

Why are those knives as good as they are? Because Spyderco and the makers they work with have been doing this for a real long time and have the ability to use that experience day to day. They've also built the relationships with trusted makers, dealers or distributors, and consumers. I think people have started to discount the value of experience these days.

Second why can't other folks just copy this? For starters it takes time. It's simple enough to order a knife and run a trace over it and make a relatively poor copy. Lots of folks do that if you read the counterfeit thread but that's just one model. You can't translate that into another model; you have to start from scratch. To do it right means you have to invest that time. Other legit makers who have invested that time have also know that copying others isn't a satisfying way to live and run a business. They want to showcase their own vision; right or wrong.

So short answer why for Seki? Right place, right time, right people.

[mikey177]

Maybe because there is a big initial investment to make an FRN mold.

I recall Sal mentioning this as a reason why some models in the Salt line were discontinued, as the existing molds were already too worn out and having new ones made would not be cost-effective.

[James Y]

Many years back, when Cold Steel used to have their knives made in Japan, the Zytel/FRN, the back locks, the integral Zytel/FRN pocket clips, and the blades of their early Voyager folders (which were AUS-8, like several of Spyderco's blades were in the '90s) were of a similar build quality to Spyderco's '90s-era FRN models, even though the designs were different. Although those Cold Steel knives were stamped Made in Japan, I suspect they were made by G. Sakai, which also produces the 'Seki-City Japan'-stamped Spydercos. Or at least most of them.

Jim

[aicolainen]

The subject title had me intrigued, but the OP lost me somewhat as he tried to lay out his question.

Leaving the whole question about other brands and the copying issue on the sideline, it’s interesting to me that the Seki knives distinguish themselves so much even within the Spyderco brand. Given that it is mostly the same designers involved no matter where a model is made, one wouldn’t really expect to look at a knife and be able to determine where it’s made.
I’m not as into the other brands out there, so while I’m not confident about this, it’s not my impression that this is as much the case with other brands.

Just as the OP I like the Seki knives for the exact same reasons, and while I’m generally happy getting my Seki knives from Seki It would certainly be interesting to see some more of the Seki DNA in Golden made knives.

[elena86]

The Seki spydies are indeed ''different''. Their cutting edges(ćutting bevels) are all over the place and the lockbacks develop vertical blade play or even worse, they come with lock rock from the factory, not to mention quite a few fit and finish issues. I am sorry to say but most of my China made spydies have better fit and finish. Too bad because a few of the most iconic models are Seki made.

[JacksonKnives]

Many years back, when Cold Steel used to have their knives made in Japan, the Zytel/FRN, the back locks, the integral Zytel/FRN pocket clips, and the blades of their early Voyager folders (which were AUS-8, like several of Spyderco's blades were in the '90s) were of a similar build quality to Spyderco's '90s-era FRN models, even though the designs were different. Although those Cold Steel knives were stamped Made in Japan, I suspect they were made by G. Sakai, which also produces the 'Seki-City Japan'-stamped Spydercos. Or at least most of them.

Jim

Also remember that the "G." in G. Sakai stands for Gerber.

IIRC Sakai was introduced to Cold Steel via Sal, but that could be an exaggeration.

I think SOG is the other best-known brand to work with them. Doesn't Fallkniven use Sakai as well?

Back to the question in the OP:

Other than the in-house manufacturing at Golden, IIRC all of the partners Spyderco works with started out making knives for other brands. Sal and Eric are very careful about who they choose to work with, and which designs go to which partners.

But... G. Sakai has been through a tough time in this last era of knifemaking, as has Japanese manufacturing generally. Exchange rates, labour shortages, competition picking off contracts steadily, supply chain issues... Knives from Seki used to be a bargain, but the deck is stacked against them.

Already in the early '00s the budget-targeted "established" brands were shifting from Japan to China because of exchange rate. Those production contracts became factories, which started selling directly and now we have an entirely new landscape of design, manufacturing and distribution.

[skeeg11]

Many years back, when Cold Steel used to have their knives made in Japan, the Zytel/FRN, the back locks, the integral Zytel/FRN pocket clips, and the blades of their early Voyager folders (which were AUS-8, like several of Spyderco's blades were in the '90s) were of a similar build quality to Spyderco's '90s-era FRN models, even though the designs were different. Although those Cold Steel knives were stamped Made in Japan, I suspect they were made by G. Sakai, which also produces the 'Seki-City Japan'-stamped Spydercos. Or at least most of them.

Jim

Also remember that the "G." in G. Sakai stands for Gerber.

IIRC Sakai was introduced to Cold Steel via Sal, but that could be an exaggeration.

I think SOG is the other best-known brand to work with them. Doesn't Fallkniven use Sakai as well?

Back to the question in the OP:

Other than the in-house manufacturing at Golden, IIRC all of the partners Spyderco works with started out making knives for other brands. Sal and Eric are very careful about who they choose to work with, and which designs go to which partners.

But... G. Sakai has been through a tough time in this last era of knifemaking, as has Japanese manufacturing generally. Exchange rates, labour shortages, competition picking off contracts steadily, supply chain issues... Knives from Seki used to be a bargain, but the deck is stacked against them.

Already in the early '00s the budget-targeted "established" brands were shifting from Japan to China because of exchange rate. Those production contracts became factories, which started selling directly and now we have an entirely new landscape of design, manufacturing and distribution.

So, so very true. Most people don't know what the G. in G. Sakai stands for. When I first bought my first Gerber mid lock backs all those years ago, they were the absolute tightest lock backs I had ever seen. None better. A lot has happened over the years for the reasons you have noted. The Seki/Chinese dynamic will continue to evolve.

[James Y]

Many years back, when Cold Steel used to have their knives made in Japan, the Zytel/FRN, the back locks, the integral Zytel/FRN pocket clips, and the blades of their early Voyager folders (which were AUS-8, like several of Spyderco's blades were in the '90s) were of a similar build quality to Spyderco's '90s-era FRN models, even though the designs were different. Although those Cold Steel knives were stamped Made in Japan, I suspect they were made by G. Sakai, which also produces the 'Seki-City Japan'-stamped Spydercos. Or at least most of them.

Jim

Also remember that the "G." in G. Sakai stands for Gerber.

IIRC Sakai was introduced to Cold Steel via Sal, but that could be an exaggeration.

I think SOG is the other best-known brand to work with them. Doesn't Fallkniven use Sakai as well?

Back to the question in the OP:

Other than the in-house manufacturing at Golden, IIRC all of the partners Spyderco works with started out making knives for other brands. Sal and Eric are very careful about who they choose to work with, and which designs go to which partners.

But... G. Sakai has been through a tough time in this last era of knifemaking, as has Japanese manufacturing generally. Exchange rates, labour shortages, competition picking off contracts steadily, supply chain issues... Knives from Seki used to be a bargain, but the deck is stacked against them.

Already in the early '00s the budget-targeted "established" brands were shifting from Japan to China because of exchange rate. Those production contracts became factories, which started selling directly and now we have an entirely new landscape of design, manufacturing and distribution.

Yes! Gerber used to have their Silver Knight (and I'm sure many others) made by them. I read about that in a Japanese knife magazine that featured an article on Gerber-Sakai. The article in question showed pics of workers making early Spyderco Salt knives.

Another company that probably used G. Sakai was Emerson. For a very short while, Emerson had a line of Japan-made back locks.

I read somewhere that the younger generation in Seki (for the most part) are not interested in entering the knife-making industry, instead preferring to enter other, more conventional types of careers. Sadly, that is only one of the reasons I can foresee a time where the only knives coming out of Seki are from the companies that specialize in kitchen cutlery.

If or when that ever happens, I don't know if the Delica, Endura, or any of the knives that have always been made in Seki, will continue to be offered. I remember Sal saying something about due to loyalty to the Seki makers, Spyderco would never bring production of the Seki models to Golden, or anywhere else.

From all I've heard, there isn't much of a knife-carrying culture in Japan. Which might surprise some people. Partly due to the extremely strict knife carry laws there, especially in the cities. Also, maybe because most simply don't feel they have much use in carrying a knife. I've heard that ones who do carry a knife, mostly carry only a mini-sized SAK, like a SAK Classic.

Jim

[awa54]

Many years back, when Cold Steel used to have their knives made in Japan, the Zytel/FRN, the back locks, the integral Zytel/FRN pocket clips, and the blades of their early Voyager folders (which were AUS-8, like several of Spyderco's blades were in the '90s) were of a similar build quality to Spyderco's '90s-era FRN models, even though the designs were different. Although those Cold Steel knives were stamped Made in Japan, I suspect they were made by G. Sakai, which also produces the 'Seki-City Japan'-stamped Spydercos. Or at least most of them.

Jim

I was going to mention this too, as well as the fact that you could often be fairly certain of which Seki City maker produced a knife by looking at the pivot and handle rivets, kick shape and blade stamp, as the two big makers had distinct "tells" in the look and design of those details.

I agree though, that Spyderco seems to have made excellent use of the capabilities of these two makers over the years, especially when it comes to the "step-up utility" category.

That said, many in-house designs and a good few high-end third party designs made in those factories have been of excellent quality (and design), so Spyderco isn't unique in that respect... I think what *is* unique about Spyderco Seki City product is that "good" hasn't been good enough and CQI has evolved the original designs into *even better* knives, which have always either pushed, or taken advantage of increasing quality capabilities from Sakai and Moki.

Also the Delica family knives occupy a narrow market segment, with many similar *looking* designs being made to a lower price/quality point and many similar *priced* designs having a more upscale look (G10, frame lock, flipper, assisted opening, etc.).
This is obviously intentional, as Spyderco created the budget line to capture the lower priced market segment, rather than moving the Delica-esque knives to Chinese production in 8Cr/9Cr, etc. , or D2.

[Evil D]

And why is it such simple lightweight knives make the best work knives? Ive carried them all over north america, for vacation and work in every environment imaginable, and never had a single failure. Even working outside in -25 deg weather many times. Why do the golden spyderco designs have such a different formula than the seki city ones? To me, an frn serrated spyderco is the perfection of what a utility knife should be.

I can't answer all your questions but I believe this question is "all in your head", and has a lot to do with what you pay for these knives and your willingness to use them.

An example of what I mean might be...

Spyderco Delica - $88.20

Vs

CRK Small Sebenza 21 - $375.00

Is the Delica a better knife in use because it costs less, or do you just feel less guilty about really using that knife as a tool because it cost a quarter of the price of the Sebenza? You may have preferences towards handle texture or weight, we could pretend both knives have the same steel, but when it comes down to it both are very usable knives and will handle real use, it's just the willingness to use the less expensive one vs what some might call "pocket jewelry".

[aicolainen]

Can’t answer for the OP, but for me it’s a little bit of both.

I’m not so much afraid to use my Sebenza, if it can’t handle the stuff I carry it for, I don’t need it. It’s more the fact that I tend to loose stuff that sometimes make the price a part of the equation.

Mainly though, I prefer the way Seki knives handles and carry over most knives. Titanium frame locks with thumb studs are most fun under ideal conditions when you’re not cold, greasy or stressed out.
Back when I got into knives I did somewhat fall for the Hinderer marketing, like I knew what was going on in my head wasn’t rational, but their background/history still made my search and rescue heart a little warm and fuzzy. After waiting some time for the right version to become available at Lamnia I started to think a bit more rationally about it and realized a Salt 2 had almost the same blade shape, was much lighter, totally maintenance free, easy to replace AND way more affordable. I ordered a Salt 2 (H1 at the time) and a Benchmade rescue hook. I keep the knife in my uniforms vest and the rescue hook on the belt of my pants. So for less weight and money than the Hinderer I got redundancy and more capability. I’ve never looked back.

ETA: I’ve since added a pair of Leatherman rescue shears to my SAR backpack and replaced my Salt 2 once, and I wouldn’t be surprised if I still have money to spare compared to the Hinderer I had in mind.

[Bolster]

So...since we're on the topic, does anyone know of a list that specifies which models were made by Moki and which by Sakai (both "Seki City")? I'll publish my partial list if no better one exists, but I'm sure that there must be a comprehensive list somewhere.

Elena 86 above makes a valid point above. My experience with Seki knives has been hit and miss. I would not classify them as across-the-board superior. I find considerable variation.

[AverageKCGuy]

Maybe because there is a big initial investment to make an FRN mold.

I recall Sal mentioning this as a reason why some models in the Salt line were discontinued, as the existing molds were already too worn out and having new ones made would not be cost-effective.

I've read this several times on here. What is it that makes FRN molds so expensive? An how expensive exactly is expensive?

Is it something like $10k for a 1000 piece mold and we can use them for 20 years? Or $100k for a 100 piece mold and they wear out in 5 years?

[cjk]

So...since we're on the topic, does anyone know of a list that specifies which models were made by Moki and which by Sakai (both "Seki City")? I'll publish my partial list if no better one exists, but I'm sure that there must be a comprehensive list somewhere.
....

I don't know if there is any list. I do know that I can usually tell which was made where just by looking at them. The fastener hardware is usually quite different.

[JRinFL]

For those wondering about up front costs for injection molds, here a couple links with nice simple break downs of the costs associated. For the record, I know nothing about these companies, I cannot endorse nor condemn them, I only know that they have nice publicly available information on their websites. There are plenty of others as well.

https://formlabs.com/blog/injection-molding-cost/

https://rexplastics.com/plastic-injecti ... molds-cost