Fixing Lock Rock in Seki FRN lockbacks

[JRinFL]

Most flaws can be engineered out, but at what cost? If the lock is safe and secure already, how much more are you willing to pay to get all noticeable movement eliminated from the design?

I'm not even sure any changes could or will be made until the Seki Gen 5 molds get designed & created, if ever.

[electro-static]

I don’t have nearly the number of Spyderco knives as many here but it seems to me that it is a minor issue. I have an older Navigator II that has pretty bad lock rock but it never caused any issues in actual use. Never failed nor failed to performed. I have a fairly recent manufactured Delica and while I can still detect a small amount of lock rock it is really minor. Not a large sample size but Seki seems to have improved over the years and I don’t really see the problem. Fortunately Spyderco makes many knives with different lock design so if the lock rock bothers you then move onto a different lock design.

That’s my conclusion after installing the backspacer.

It doesn’t particularly matter, not worth taking apart my knife and installing a $30 aftermarket part and then altering the balance of the knife. If there is ever an An Endura 5, I can see it being addressed but right now it doesn’t really affect the knife in use.

[vivi]

I just got another police k390 frn and this one has much less lock rock than my other one which has a substantial amount. Guess tolerances are decently variable

As the owner of 20 something Pacific Salts, there's definitely tolerance variations.

I notice this most with boye dent lockbacks. The dent isn't the same depth across all my Pacifics of the same gen. Some I have to depress the lockbar all the way to the handle to unlock, and some only need to be pressed in half way.

Having a lock release that can be activated by barely pressing the lock release is more concerning to me than a little blade wiggle that has zero influence on performance.

[Bolster]

The criticism of those who criticize Seki lock rock is always the same: "You are demanding the perfection of absolute rigidity, you need to lower your standards, the knife is perfectly safe and useable with rock, it doesn't bother me, therefore it should not bother you."

I think that's a straw-man argument. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not asking for a back lock with zero movement (though it would be nice, and is the case for the Chaparral). I am willing to accept a little lock rock. I have many Spydercos with a little lock rock and they are very satisfactory. (I also have many Spyderco backlocks with none, at least under normal conditions--Golden models as you might guess.) But a good number of my Seki models...I'd guess a third...came new with so much rock it bothered me enough to stop buying certain models that I really liked otherwise.

While some of you are recommending "Just live with it," I'd encourage Spyderco's subcontrators to reduce the amount of rock, since we have seen it done successfully. Yes, I'd pay more for higher QC standards, or tighter fitment, or an improved back spacer, or a stop pin. There is a stop pin in the Chap and it is still an affordable knife in FRN.

This forum is filled with fanboys and I am definitely one. But I don't think fanboyism means we can't voice dissatisfaction if done logically, politely, with evidence of the problem, and with an eye to possible solutions. I'm not hostile to Spyderco just because I'm pointing to something bothersome that can be improved. Just the opposite.

[cjk]

Hey Everyone, Just an update I seem to have found a solution.

I installed an aftermarket flytanium backspacer for my endura 4 and that seems to have for the most part stopped the lock-rock issue. The action now feels more stiff so I will have to take another look.

IMHO, the backspacer is a red herring. The action of your knife is stiffer now because it's screwed together tighter now than it was before.

Changing the backspacer does make the knife feel more solid and heavier. I do this and I like it. It also noticeably changes the sound of the lock engagement. It's louder and lower in pitch. In my experience, making sure all the screws are tight will have an effect on rock lock on a lot of knives.
Changing the backspacer does not have much if any of an effect on lock rock, but re-assembling the knife snugger than it was before often does, at least in my experience.

[cjk]

The criticism of those who criticize Seki lock rock is always the same: "You are demanding the perfection of absolute rigidity, you need to lower your standards, the knife is perfectly safe and useable with rock, it doesn't bother me, therefore it should not bother you."

I think that's a straw-man argument. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not asking for a back lock with zero movement (though it would be nice, and is the case for the Chaparral). I am willing to accept a little lock rock. I have many Spydercos with a little lock rock and they are very satisfactory. (I also have many Spyderco backlocks with none, at least under normal conditions--Golden models as you might guess.) But a good number of my Seki models...I'd guess a third...came new with so much rock it bothered me enough to stop buying certain models that I really liked otherwise.

While some of you are recommending "Just live with it," I'd encourage Spyderco's subcontrators to reduce the amount of rock, since we have seen it done successfully. Yes, I'd pay more for higher QC standards, or tighter fitment, or an improved back spacer, or a stop pin. There is a stop pin in the Chap and it is still an affordable knife in FRN.

This forum is filled with fanboys and I am definitely one. But I don't think fanboyism means we can't voice dissatisfaction if done logically, politely, with evidence of the problem, and with an eye to possible solutions. I'm not hostile to Spyderco just because I'm pointing to something bothersome that can be improved. Just the opposite.

I'm a fanboy too. I would also prefer if the tolerances of the Seki knives were as good as the Taichung or Golden knives, but they aren't.
It'd be great if that could be improved. I really like a lot of the Seki knives and have a preference for back locks as I prefer folding knives to stay closed when I want them to stay closed.. I still like the products which are made in Seki and will continue to buy them even if no tolerance changes are made.

However, it's easy for me, some bozo on the interwebs, to say "increase your tolerances", but actually doing so is surely an expensive proposition. I'm sure that would require lots of machinery and other capital expenditures. Lots of money to spend only to make marginally "better" versions of what they already make. There's no additional profit to make there with that investment. It's probably more rational to expect the tolerances to get better over longer periods of time as machinery needs to be replaced.

So, I really don't think that Seki's lower tolerances is a problem which actually needs to be solved.

I do have back locks with lock rock from other manufacturers. Actually, every non-Spyderco back lock I own (honestly not a lot, so small sample size) has some noticeable lock rock. I suspect that back locks without lock rock are more of an exception than a rule (barring designs which include stop pins).

I'd sure like to see more Taichung back locks too given that the Chaparral is such a perfect thing.

I would expect that more use the powerlock instead would "solve" rock lock, however, it has a higher part count than a traditional back lock. I would like to see it get used again.

[electro-static]

The criticism of those who criticize Seki lock rock is always the same: "You are demanding the perfection of absolute rigidity, you need to lower your standards, the knife is perfectly safe and useable with rock, it doesn't bother me, therefore it should not bother you."

I think that's a straw-man argument. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not asking for a back lock with zero movement (though it would be nice, and is the case for the Chaparral). I am willing to accept a little lock rock. I have many Spydercos with a little lock rock and they are very satisfactory. (I also have many Spyderco backlocks with none, at least under normal conditions--Golden models as you might guess.) But a good number of my Seki models...I'd guess a third...came new with so much rock it bothered me enough to stop buying certain models that I really liked otherwise.

While some of you are recommending "Just live with it," I'd encourage Spyderco's subcontrators to reduce the amount of rock, since we have seen it done successfully. Yes, I'd pay more for higher QC standards, or tighter fitment, or an improved back spacer, or a stop pin. There is a stop pin in the Chap and it is still an affordable knife in FRN.

This forum is filled with fanboys and I am definitely one. But I don't think fanboyism means we can't voice dissatisfaction if done logically, politely, with evidence of the problem, and with an eye to possible solutions. I'm not hostile to Spyderco just because I'm pointing to something bothersome that can be improved. Just the opposite.

I'm a fanboy too. I would also prefer if the tolerances of the Seki knives were as good as the Taichung or Golden knives, but they aren't.
It'd be great if that could be improved. I really like a lot of the Seki knives and have a preference for back locks as I prefer folding knives to stay closed when I want them to stay closed.. I still like the products which are made in Seki and will continue to buy them even if no tolerance changes are made.

However, it's easy for me, some bozo on the interwebs, to say "increase your tolerances", but actually doing so is surely an expensive proposition. I'm sure that would require lots of machinery and other capital expenditures. Lots of money to spend only to make marginally "better" versions of what they already make. There's no additional profit to make there with that investment. It's probably more rational to expect the tolerances to get better over longer periods of time as machinery needs to be replaced.

So, I really don't think that Seki's lower tolerances is a problem which actually needs to be solved.

I do have back locks with lock rock from other manufacturers. Actually, every non-Spyderco back lock I own (honestly not a lot, so small sample size) has some noticeable lock rock. I suspect that back locks without lock rock are more of an exception than a rule (barring designs which include stop pins).

I'd sure like to see more Taichung back locks too given that the Chaparral is such a perfect thing.

I would expect that more use the powerlock instead would "solve" rock lock, however, it has a higher part count than a traditional back lock. I would like to see it get used again.

honestly the cost associated with “increasing tolerances” isn’t worth it. the Seki K390 line let us try super duper steels in fantastic designs for a fraction the cost of a custom. I would say keeping the price point is vastly more important than lock rock. Spyderco makes excellent cutting tools, not pocket jewelry.

To your point, I will try taking apart an endura a d re-assembling it again to see if it improves the lock rock as you say, and if the Ti backspacer is just a red herring.

[Bolster]

...However, it's easy for me, some bozo on the interwebs, to say "increase your tolerances", but actually doing so is surely an expensive proposition. I'm sure that would require lots of machinery and other capital expenditures...

Appreciate the response, and you make good points overall, but the above excerpt sounds like conjecture to me. I have been part of a manufacturing team that outsourced to Asia (in other words, I am one of your "bozos"), and there have been times we had to increase tolerances to create a more competitive product. In our case, it took several hours of training (re-training, actually) of personnel. It did not require "new machines" as some folks in this thread are wildly imagining, LOL. It also required higher Quality Control standards, and we rejected a percentage more components that were badly formed -- they were mic'd to tighter standards, and those that didn't pass were either modified or tossed before the item was made, so it was not a major expense. Over time, the crew just got better at it, because we insisted on higher standards. Sales eventually followed. Now perhaps knife making is completely different, but then again, perhaps it's not.

The fact that the Golden lock backs consistently have little-to-no rock, and the Seki have widely acknowledged (except for a few forum deniers) hit-and-miss rock, is about as clear of an indication there is, that the issue has a fix--or more precisely, that the issue has already been fixed (at Golden).

The "no profit in it" argument is problematic if sufficient people stop buying due to an unwanted attribute. On the other hand, if people are still buying lock-rocky knives in droves, and are happy with them, then, full steam ahead, no corrections needed, and people like me will gravitate to other lock types or other options. But, speaking for myself, I'm so done with big lock rock. A little rock, that's OK. Big rock, no way.

I'd sure like to see more Taichung back locks too given that the Chaparral is such a perfect thing.

I would expect that more use the powerlock instead would "solve" rock lock, however, it has a higher part count than a traditional back lock. I would like to see it get used again.

Two reasonable ways forward. I don't think it's the location that makes the Chaparral so tight, it's the stop pin. But if it is the location, then all the more evidence that QC standards could "use some encouragement" in Seki.

[jwbnyc]

I’m not sure what is meant by lock rock here. Are people using the knife hard and noticing movement in the lock while it’s being used, or are people generating lock rock by moving the blade up and down by hand? I have always been able to tune lock rock out by adjusting at the pivot, except in one case, a Dragonfly, where it requires pressing down on the pivot at the lock bar to get it to seat completely. I expect that one will improve with use. The only other Spyderco that I own that has lock rock is an old Delica 3, which is pinned, that has some. Other than that, it’s not something I’ve run into, unless the pivot screw has loosened up and that’s been easy to fix by tightening the screw. I would expect some lock rock in a well-used knife, but right out of the box - I haven’t seen much of that and it’s always been amenable to adjustment. I’m honestly curious to know where all this lock rock is coming from. I may be misunderstanding what is meant by lock rock as it is being discussed here.

[cjk]

...
Appreciate the response, and you make good points overall, but the above excerpt sounds like conjecture to me. I have been part of a manufacturing team that outsourced to Asia (in other words, I am one of your "bozos"), and there have been times we had to increase tolerances to create a more competitive product. In our case, it took several hours of training (re-training, actually) of personnel. It did not require "new machines" as some folks in this thread are wildly imagining, LOL. It also required higher Quality Control standards, and we rejected a percentage more components that were badly formed -- they were mic'd to tighter standards, and those that didn't pass were either modified or tossed before the item was made, so it was not a major expense. Over time, the crew just got better at it, because we insisted on higher standards. Sales eventually followed. Now perhaps knife making is completely different, but then again, perhaps it's not.

The fact that the Golden lock backs consistently have little-to-no rock, and the Seki have widely acknowledged (except for a few forum deniers) hit-and-miss rock, is about as clear of an indication there is, that the issue has a fix--or more precisely, that the issue has already been fixed (at Golden).

The "no profit in it" argument is problematic if sufficient people stop buying due to an unwanted attribute. On the other hand, if people are still buying lock-rocky knives in droves, and are happy with them, then, full steam ahead, no corrections needed, and people like me will gravitate to other lock types or other options. But, speaking for myself, I'm so done with big lock rock. A little rock, that's OK. Big rock, no way.

I'd sure like to see more Taichung back locks too given that the Chaparral is such a perfect thing.

I would expect that more use the powerlock instead would "solve" rock lock, however, it has a higher part count than a traditional back lock. I would like to see it get used again.

Two reasonable ways forward. I don't think it's the location that makes the Chaparral so tight, it's the stop pin. But if it is the location, then all the more evidence that QC standards could "use some encouragement" in Seki.

Definitely conjecture on my part.

I did not intend to call anybody a bozo but myself.

I would question if the level of lock rock currently is "enough" to turn off enough people to stop buying those products. This is again conjecture on my part as I don't have any real data other than my own experiences. I would bet that some lock rock has always been there. My old Buck 110 has a little side to side play and lock rock. Every non-spyderco back lock I have does, but it's a small sample.

I do agree with you that I would prefer that there would be less lock rock. The minimal amount in the Native series would be an improvement. I am all for Seki QC and tolerance standards improving.

The Taichung knives just fit together slightly better. So yeah, the stop pins appear responsible for the tight lockup, but they also fit together better, just snugger.

The Powerlock has a stop pin and (I assume) similar close bias to back lock, so that's why I kinda push in that direction. But the back lock is probably good enough.

In most cases with the Seki products, I can adjust out most of the lock rock by tightening the pivot and the lock bar screw, but then sometimes the blade may not drop on my finger when I depress the lock so I have to choose one or the other. This probably further proves your point about QC because they all don't do this. My point is really that it can be adjusted out in a lot of cases.

Then again, I have one Seki backlock where the lock rock just can't be adjusted out no matter what I do. It still works. I can't get the lock to fail. I have many others which are perfectly fine.

Edit: I do have to admit that I am biased. If I "had to" make my list of my top 5 favorite Spydercos, at least 3 of the 5 are made in Seki City. If they got better, SUPER! but I find most to be pretty great as is.

[James Y]

I actually feel (in my own experience) that in more recent years, my Seki back locks have had less lock rock than ones I bought in the late ‘90s/early 2K. Maybe I’ve been lucky.

Also, when ordering through online dealers, I’ve always ordered over the phone. And I ask for them to check the knife before shipping to be free of things like lock rock (I say ‘blade play’) in the locked position; sloppy or dull edge grinds; stripped screw heads, etc. It isn’t a foolproof method, but I’ve never really gotten a lemon when ordering this way, especially when ordering through Knife Works. That could be another reason why my Seki back locks have mostly been good to very good, in terms of lockup. Sometimes there is a very tiny amount of lock rock, when really pressing into a cut. No big deal to me. I’ve posted about my ordering method from time to time, but most people (if they have a choice on how they can order) seem to ignore it, and prefer to click and hope.

Jim

[vivi]

The fact that the Golden lock backs consistently have little-to-no rock, and the Seki have widely acknowledged (except for a few forum deniers) hit-and-miss rock, is about as clear of an indication there is, that the issue has a fix--or more precisely, that the issue has already been fixed (at Golden). .

I have no idea how this apparent myth of "zero play golden backlocks" got started, but every single golden made lockback I've handled for the past two decades has had some. Everything from my first run C95 Manix to 4V Native Chief.

I don't know why this idea gets pushed so hard here. I'd love to trade someone for one of these mythical zero lock rock golden lockbacks, because after decades of looking, I haven't found one. I've handled multiple c95's, chinooks, natives, native chiefs, etc.

Seki knives definitely have lockrock, but so do my chinese and US made lockback spydercos.

I think the knives would feel better without it, but I also find it effortless to ignore.

I’m not sure what is meant by lock rock here. Are people using the knife hard and noticing movement in the lock while it’s being used, or are people generating lock rock by moving the blade up and down by hand?

I can make my lockback knives display lock rock during moderate cutting tasks (slicing a cardboard box, pointing a stick, cutting salami or cheese) - or by pinching the blade with one hand and the handle with the other and wiggling the blade up and down.

Doesn't bother me one bit and it has never been a safety issue.

But I also can't tune it out of my spyderco lockbacks.

I also see it in every model from every country.

I don't think spyderco makes zero play lockbacks aside from the chap with an internal stop pin. I'm ok with that, but I think it's weird how many people say golden lockbacks are magical zero play locks, when all mine have vertical movement.

[DavidNM]

I am curious to know if the lock rock remained after new scales and backspacers were installed? Has anyone swapped out the scales an backspacers on a Delica or Dragonfly? Was the lock rock eliminated or reduced?

[Toucan]

The only time lock rock has ever been intolerable for me has been with the Dragonfly. All the models I've owned had it something fierce. I've parted with all of my Dragonflies for various reasons, but the massive lock rock was probably 30% of the reason each time.

Lock rock is a bummer, but it's just an inherent quirk of the design. The Moki models have it. The Chinese models have it. Even everyone's darling back lock out of Golden has it. Seki might be the worst, but it's there in any model without a stop pin inside.

Drives me mad, but if you want a slim knife and ambidextrous knife with a bias towards close, the back lock is the only game in town. Almost all my Spydeis are Seki back locks. I dream of the day they all get a stop pin CQI, but it seems very unlikely.

If it is truly intolerable, get a Chaparral. With work gloves and a dim room you could pretend it's a Delica.

[Senfkarte]

I just got a new Pacific Salt 2, a few days ago. It had massive lock rock out of the box. But it also had very loose screws out of the box. I was able to tighten them by more than one full turn. After the screws had been tightened there still was lock rock, but way less.
I personally accepted the relative big lock rock in Seki knives. And with relative big, I mean, noticeable while cutting stuff. Clearly I would prefer less lock rock, no question. But I also appreciate, that the Seki knives generally are a little less expensive in comparison to the other Spydercos.
For me the Seki FRNs are a little bit like a racecar. Made for the maximum performance at the cost of fit and finish. Other factories produce luxury cars (Taichung) or something like upper middle class cars (Golden) if you want to stay in the same picture...

[Toucan]

I just got a new Pacific Salt 2, a few days ago. It had massive lock rock out of the box. But it also had very loose screws out of the box. I was able to tighten them by more than one full turn. After the screws had been tightened there still was lock rock, but way less.
I personally accepted the relative big lock rock in Seki knives. And with relative big, I mean, noticeable while cutting stuff. Clearly I would prefer less lock rock, no question. But I also appreciate, that the Seki knives generally are a little less expensive in comparison to the other Spydercos.
For me the Seki FRNs are a little bit like a racecar. Made for the maximum performance at the cost of fit and finish. Other factories produce luxury cars (Taichung) or something like upper middle class cars (Golden) if you want to stay in the same picture...

In many ways, good and bad, the Spyderco Delica 4 is the Nissan 350z of knives. The Dragonfly is surely a Miata The Endura... a Honda Prelude?

So, logically, that makes a Native 5 LW a Ford Ranger... right?

[DavidNM]

The Native5 LW is a Ford F150. The Lil’ Native would be the Ranger

[JRinFL]

If we are using automobiles, ALL of the FRN Seki Spydercos are some version of a Hi-lux. Tough, durable, built to do work. They were never meant to be handcrafted GT-Rs.

[Bolster]

Cop: License and registration please.
Forumite: Why, officer, what did I do?
Cop: I clocked you going 120 in the 60 mph zone.
Forumite: [looks around] See those other cars, officer? NOBODY is driving 60. They’re ALL breaking the law. [Points to car going by.] That guy has to be driving at least 65, right there. Why did you pull ME over, why not HIM?
Cop: Because you were doing 120.
Forumite: Bogus! Unfair! Police Brutality! etc etc.

That’s how the “all my back locks have lock rock” argument sounds to me. It’s a refusal to recognize there are degrees. It’s binary, all-or-nothing categorization. For the record (again!) that is NOT my issue, I’m not a lock rock absolutist. My concern is about the 120 mph knives, so to speak, the ones with undeniable and bothersome blade movement, and most of my very rocky knives were Moki made. I recently purchased a Sakai FRN Stretch and it has essentially no rock at all. Can I get my Goldens to lock rock? If I concentrate on it, a few have a little play, but unnoticeable in use. I’m not going to sell a “65” knife for a tiny amount of lock rock, but I have sold off all of my “120” knives. Hoping stop pins will be added (or some other fix will be employed) someday. I’m glad there are comp and BB lock alternatives.

[electro-static]

I am curious to know if the lock rock remained after new scales and backspacers were installed? Has anyone swapped out the scales an backspacers on a Delica or Dragonfly? Was the lock rock eliminated or reduced?

I replaced the spacer because I saw someone post a delica 4 with a Ti back spacer. He said it eliminated or greatly reduced the lock rock. So it should work for a delica. There was also a bit of flash on the original FRN backspacer so cleaning that up may help too.

It might be a red herring though as I have not tried tightening up my other enduras. Although the fitment on my re-assembly job was worse than from the factory.

I own two native 5’s from golden none of them have any lock rock whatsoever. But that could just specific to that model.