Spyderco Forums

Can someone refresh my memory on why we have not had any Seki or Moki Spyderco blades in White steel? It’s prized for its purity and taking a keen edge. Laminated is just fine. I’m guessing there are a few that want a knife that takes a very keen edge with out the fuss of the high wearing alloys.

What kind of knife would they put this on? Blue super performed pretty poorly in Larrin's CATRA testing and white has less carbon so it would probably do worse. It could work on a chef's knife where you don't cut through abrasive materials and want a really fine edge, but I don't really see that working too well on a pocket knife.

I've heard the claim that a number of carbon steel alloys take on a super fine edge, but I'm a little skeptical that they'd do it more easily than something like LC200N.

I have White #1 (higher edge retention than White #2) steel in a handmade Gyuto kitchen knife. It is very corrosion prone and does not have great edge retention. Doesn't seem to hold aggressive edges well, at least not in the kitchen where it is exposed to lots of acidic ingredients. It is however very easy to get sharp, and will stay sharp without too much trouble if you strop it on some diamond past every day or two, and strop quickly on a stone every week or two. At least that is what's working for me.

As a carbon lover you would think I would be into the idea of a White #1 Spydie, but to be honest I'm not sure if I'd be too interested. I guess on a Seki model it might be logical to use White steel since it is Japanese made, but I guess I would rather see something in 52100, which I suppose would probably be on an American model. Maybe what I want is a 52100 Native or Para 3.

Super Blue is a carbon steel that I think is cool, but I am surprised it didn't fair to well in CATRA testing. I know of pro chefs who have used Aogami Super (Japanese for Super Blue) for 6 months straight in a high volume kitchen without needing to resharpen. Just a fun steel whatever the case.

My opinion really shouldn't mean much, but Aogami Super is interesting to me, White steel, probably not so much, and 52100 in a small American folder would be cool.

I was thinking Endura in White Steel #1. Good heat treat being the big difference. Most who have the 52100 from Golden are very pleased with the results.

Scandi Grind wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:01 pm

Super Blue is a carbon steel that I think is cool, but I am surprised it didn't fair to well in CATRA testing. I know of pro chefs who have used Aogami Super (Japanese for Super Blue) for 6 months straight in a high volume kitchen without needing to resharpen. Just a fun steel whatever the case.

CATRA testing is cutting into silica infused paper. A kitchen knife is mostly cutting into soft foods and wood, so the result isn't necessarily going to be comparable. That's not to say that kitchen knives don't need a good steel. I've had a couple of cheap X50CrMoV and X30CrMoV knives and they lose the razor edge quickly.

I haven't tried blue super, so I'm not sure about the performance. It's possible that blue super holds up for a long time just cutting into a cutting board. It's also possible that the knives had such a thin edge that it was hard to notice edge damage. Blue super knives tend to be high end and delicate. It's possible honing (especially with ceramic) could have restored the edge between use too.

I would like to remind our folks that CATRA is not a sensitive test. It is pretty or ugly, fast or slow, creative or stable, big or little. It is a good test, but incomplete for a total picture.

CATRA does not measure the "feel" in making the cut. the "eye" in seeing the cut. It measures how long it will make the cut.

Will the Patina affect the cut? Will you emotion make a difference?

sal

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:35 am

I would like to remind our folks that CATRA is not a sensitive test. It is pretty or ugly, fast or slow, creative or stable, big or little. It is a good test, but incomplete for a total picture.

CATRA does not measure the "feel" in making the cut. the "eye" in seeing the cut. It measures how long it will make the cut.

Will the Patina affect the cut? Will you emotion make a difference?

sal

Huh?

Is this kind of like saying measuring fuel expended over distance driven will provide fuel economy, but not give information on the quality of the drive?

If you're interested in understanding the nuances of Blue and White Steels, this summary on the ZKnives website is excellent: http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/ ... SHIROGAMI2. It provides a simple, easy-to-understand assessment of each grade and mentions that they are also made in two versions--one for smiths and one for stock-removal makers.

Stay safe,

Mike

kennbr34 wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:41 am

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:35 am

I would like to remind our folks that CATRA is not a sensitive test. It is pretty or ugly, fast or slow, creative or stable, big or little. It is a good test, but incomplete for a total picture.

CATRA does not measure the "feel" in making the cut. the "eye" in seeing the cut. It measures how long it will make the cut.

Will the Patina affect the cut? Will you emotion make a difference?

sal

Huh?

Is this kind of like saying measuring fuel expended over distance driven will provide fuel economy, but not give information on the quality of the drive?

A good analogy. Fuel measurement v. Quality of driving.

You have a paradox from an artist.

In art/some things we divorce ourselves from numbers and measurements, and just feel it and experience it.

I guess I could say that I’m thinking more 100% toward the quality of the cut and 0% CATRA or other edge wearing measurements. We have Maxamet and 15V now, they are edge retention beasts. 15V with BBB heat treat is such and enhancement to standard 15V.

I’m thinking of going to quality of edge and ease of maintaining that first cut superiority. Laminated White steel should help in maintenance. I was hoping for a 52100 Native for regular EDC. That has not happened so I thought the Seki models would be an option with laminated White steel.

I've found that CATRA's a decent ballpark measurement for pocket knife tasks (cutting through tons of cardboard, plastic, wood, etc.)
Other tasks might wear the blade a lot less or require tougher steel, but that's not what I tend to think of when I buy a pocket knife.

In terms of low carbide steels, I'd imagine ease of sharpening is more down to deburring than anything. Back when I used aluminum oxide stones, I didn't notice much of a difference when grinding 1095, LC200N, X50CrMoV, etc. Getting them to a really nice final edge could be tricky though (X50CrMoV was tricky, LC200N was effortless). I suspect that was just soft steel deburring. I didn't notice much of a difference restoring the edge on a strop unless the steel chipped or deformed (X50CrMoV chipped like crazy, LC200N never did).

I'm not familiar with super high hardness carbon steels, so maybe White deburrs really well and resist chipping. I've never seen a good scientific test on chipping in steels. Larrin has those charpy tests but Rex45 did poorly there while appearing to do well in real-world knife use.
In any case, I still think LC200N would be better for the low effort maintenance use case (unless you want to buy diamond plates and go with K390). For cool factor, high carbon japanese steels that patina do get some points though.

It’s a nice boring high carbon steel. The Japanese mystique helps though.

Larrin wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:25 pm

It’s a nice boring high carbon steel. The Japanese mystique helps though.

I think the mystique is a draw. I get that Hitachi White is not exciting from advancing the state of the art. Advancements are happening with new steels and production. This is more about nuance within our hobby.

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:52 pm

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

Mules are always good Sal. Variety is the spice of life. Something new, something very different, I would pick one up.

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:52 pm

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

Absolutely!

A color micrographs I made of 26C3 "Spicy White"
A swedish high carbon steel similar to Hitachi "white paper" Shirogami 1, but has a "dash" of 0.30% chromium for improved hardening response with quenching.




The white dots are the iron carbides, they are harder than the surrounding tempered martensite matrix.

I refined the iron carbides with thermal cycling, the majority of the carbides are sub-micron in size.

Iron carbides are the softest carbides in steel.

Overall hardness on this sample is 66-67rc after tempering.

Endura is my weekend carry and Manbug is my weekday EDC.

Caly 3.5 or 3.5 lightweight would get some of the old guard excited. That includes me.

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:52 pm

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

Um… loved the 52100 military… Stretch XL light wt makes the most sense for cool diversity/practicality.

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:52 pm

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

OK, that would be fun, but unfortunately I probably wouldn't have a good excuse to get one.