Cost of Steel

[Bolster]

I’m curious about the cost of “humble” blade steels vs. “super” blade steels. Let’s say a typical folder has two ounces of blade steel in it. Holding all other variables constant,* I wonder what that 2 oz of steel would cost if made in a bargain steel (maybe 8Cr13Mov) vs an uber-steel (maybe Vanax, or whatever; just mentioning Vanax since I read it was a very expensive steel). Would that steel upgrade, for 2 oz of it, represent an additional $1 of cost to the manufacturer? 10 dollars? 100 dollars? More? Does anybody know? Perhaps not, unless you’re in the business of buying steel. But I’m hoping a knife maker/steel buyer on the forum might give us an idea of how much more 2 oz of “fancy” steel costs, relative to 2 oz of “bargain” steel. Not hung up on 8Cr vs. Vanax, any similar comparison will do.

I searched the forum and found some similar threads, but nothing that quite answered the question:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67164&p=1008985
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72585&p=1121155
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9687&p=9687 (from 2003!!)

* Holding all other variables constant: Meaning, we don’t factor in such differences as: the Vanax will use up more belts to grind, or that one steel must be shipped and another not shipped, or that assembly costs vary, etc. The question is just about the cost of a few ounces of steel “in isolation,” as it were. We’re all well aware that the price of a knife has many variables contributing to it, but I’m curious about just the steel-cost variable.

[Josh Crutchley]

You can get a good idea by looking at the cost from various suppliers. Before checking prices I thought it was weird that M4 Spydies are usually cheaper than their S30V counterparts. Looking at Niagara you can see M4 comes in almost $7 cheaper than S30V for the same size piece.

https://nsm-ny.com/shop/
https://popsknife.supplies/collections/steel

Heres some uber expensive Damasteel for comparison.
https://amxinc.com/t/damasteel

[SpyderNut]

I've definitely noticed a variation in steel pricing between certain types of steel. Depending on size and thickness, certain steels (i.e. AEB-L, D2, and ATS-34) can be fairly inexpensive. However certain steels like CTS-XHP, S90V, Cruwear, MagaCut, etc., can fetch some hefty prices. For example: Last December, I purchased a 1" wide x .160" thick x 12" long piece of MagnaCut for about $60. A similarly sized piece of AEB-L or D2 would have been around maybe $20 or so. I know Carpenter's CTS-XHP is hard to source, so of course it is harder to find--which drives pricing up.

[ladybug93]

you have to remember to factor working the steel too. sal has said that maxamet is a real pain to work with. so, even if it's cost was marginally more than vg10, the abrasives probabaly cost a lot more. it probably takes more man hours to produce a blade with it. and i'm sure there are other factors i don't even know about at play too. it's not only the cost of the materials vs the cost of the materials though.

[kennbr34]

This is another good little window into pricing differences...

https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/shop/p ... -materials

Generally speaking, steels tend to fall into 3 major categories: Low-alloy steels which tend to be primarily carbon-based, high-alloy steels like stainless steels which use a lot of chromium, vanadium, etc., and tool steels which are also high-alloy but tend not to be stainless, and instead use a lot of things like tungsten and molybdenum since they're meant to be used as metal cutting tools in high-speed applications. Those categories will produce much different performance characteristics, but there's not always a direct correlation to performance and price. For example, 1095, D2 and 440C are all pretty similarly priced ($5-$10 for a .100" x 11.6" x 1.5" piece), despite having much different performance characteristics and compositions. Meanwhile, if you compare them to other ingot steels, even though they may have different compositions, they're going to be basically in the same ballpark, with some differences due to supply/demand. For example, 80CrV2 is not vastly different than 1084 (it's very similar with just a few minor alloying elements) but it's also one of the newer and trendier blade steels being used by custom makers, so that higher demand is going to be reflected in the price, as well as the fact that it's produced in Europe. Similarly, 1095 actually has lower demand than both 1084 or 80CrV2 because not a lot of custom makers want to use it because the heat treat is trickier. So there are a lot of various factors that will influence the price difference in steels, but there's one major one.

What really tends to make the super steels fly in price is that most of them are powder metallurgy. I wish I could find prices for CPM-M4 vs ingot M4 or CPM-D2 vs ingot D2 to demonstrate, but basically the powder metallurgy process itself adds a very large price increase to the cost because it's much more difficult. There's also differences in sources as well. CPM 20CV, CTS 204P and Bohler's M390 are all compositionally very similar, but you'll be likely to find much difference prices for 20CV and 204P than M390 if you're buying in the U.S. since Bohler is a European manufacturer and import fees and tarriffs might apply. Not to mention there's also simple things like demand... Not everyone is aware that these steels are functionally equivalent, and so there tends to be a bit higher demand for M390 than the others.

The price can be greatly affected by the varying amounts of various elements in the steel's composition, but it's not necessarily the cost of that element that causes the price increase. Take CPM's line of 3V, 4V, 10V, 15V (and S30V, S60V, S90V, and S110V) for example. Those steels have increasing levels of vanadium, and typically increasing levels of cost as well, but it's not because the vanadium is very expensive, but rather because the manufacturing process becomes more difficult the more vanadium is added. For example, to go from CPM 10V to CPM 15V, they had to make some pretty significant changes to the manufacturing process which are reflected much more in the price than the simple extra 5% of vanadium would account for. This article might interest you: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/05/24/ ... n-you-add/

So anyway, long story short, you can see that a lot of these steels will jump significantly in price for the same amount, but the biggest cost factor is ingot steel versus powder steel. Many of these "super steels" with their vast amounts of alloying elements wouldn't be that much more than their low-alloy counterparts except for the fact that most of them tend to be powder metallurgy.

[JRinFL]

Sal has commented before that the raw steel cost is only small portion of the overall cost to produce a knife. Labor and benefits being a huge chunk. These super alloys also tend to have much more involved heat treat protocols, not to mention the increased costs to grind them into a knife. I keep saying it, there is no free lunch.

[resonanzmacher]

I’m curious about the cost of “humble” blade steels vs. “super” blade steels…

* Holding all other variables constant: Meaning, we don’t factor in such differences as: the Vanax will use up more belts to grind, or that one steel must be shipped and another not shipped, or that assembly costs vary, etc. The question is just about the cost of a few ounces of steel “in isolation,” as it were. We’re all well aware that the price of a knife has many variables contributing to it, but I’m curious about just the steel-cost variable.

I see others have pointed you at supplier sites; that’s the best way to compare such costs. Rule of thumb is a delta of $20-25 or so.

Thing is, a few ounces of steel ‘in isolation’ ends up being too abstract of a concept to be wholly useful; you have to factor in the additional impact to productions cost, because they are always there once you use the steel in question. And the costs can be surprisingly high; it’s not just a matter of wearing out belts and milling equipment and other increased material costs. It’s training, and learning the little lessons on how not to industrially screw up the more challenging materials, and higher wastage because super steels can be difficult to machine and heat treat, before an actual shop can get good with the more expensive and/or advanced materials being compared.

This is a reason I often wince when I see manufacturers offering top grade steels at bargain prices; you always gotta wonder whether they’re delivering on the promise of the materials, or if they just half-assed it because a lot of ‘users’ will never know the difference. It turns out delivering full production runs of properly ground, heat and/or cryo treated super steel knives that live up to their promise, isn’t easy, and some makers half *** it, especially at first until they learn better.

[Bolster]

You can get a good idea by looking at the cost from various suppliers...

Perfect, thanks! Great comparisons available at the URLs above.

Actually, one *can* consider a single element that contributes to a larger whole, holding all other variables constant; this is commonly done in statitical analysis. And yes, it is theoretical and abstract. And that's OK. "Theory" is neither a dirty word nor a shameful concept.

So, looking at the price of a medium blade-sized chunk of steel that's 5 x 1.5 x .125, that steel would cost (according to URL above) approximately...

$10.50 in 440C
$17.00 in S90V

...so, just as Sal is reported to have said:

Sal has commented before that the raw steel cost is only small portion of the overall cost to produce a knife...

And to repeat, just for super duper extra repetitive clarity (so nobody gets ruffled feathers or nose out of joint), we're all very aware that the price of a chunk of steel is just one factor in the price of a knife; and we all acknowledge and vigorously proclaim that more complex steels require more complex grinding, treating, man-hours, woman-hours, and so forth. But those are other parts of the equation.

Thanks, all! My curiosity is much sated.

[Danke]

Steel is free. Anyone can just go stake a claim & dig it out of the ground.

[kennethsime]

My only tidbit to share is that Mike Stewart from Bark River likes to say that CPM steel is at least 3x the price of a good A2 tool steel.

[Erich]

I've definitely noticed a variation in steel pricing between certain types of steel. Depending on size and thickness, certain steels (i.e. AEB-L, D2, and ATS-34) can be fairly inexpensive. However certain steels like CTS-XHP, S90V, Cruwear, MagaCut, etc., can fetch some hefty prices. For example: Last December, I purchased a 1" wide x .160" thick x 12" long piece of MagnaCut for about $60. A similarly sized piece of AEB-L or D2 would have been around maybe $20 or so. I know Carpenter's CTS-XHP is hard to source, so of course it is harder to find--which drives pricing up.

Interesting. I assumed the old AISI steels would be much cheaper. How much would AISI T15 cost compared to that AEB-L and D2 at $20.00?

[standy99]

Buying knife steel I can get D2 for $18, 1075/1085 for $22 or Magnacut for $115 for the same size piece.

CPM is a premium in Australia but worth the $$s for the ease of heat treat information and process.
But as said the working of steel in abrasives is a thought.

2oz finished blade is actually a lot different to 2oz of steel.

But look at the Ben shot glass for $50 US (probably $40 for a un-sharpened blade)

[JRinFL]

Sal has commented before that the raw steel cost is only small portion of the overall cost to produce a knife...

And to repeat, just for super duper extra repetitive clarity (so nobody gets ruffled feathers or nose out of joint), we're all very aware that the price of a chunk of steel is just one factor in the price of a knife; and we all acknowledge and vigorously proclaim that more complex steels require more complex grinding, treating, man-hours, woman-hours, and so forth. But those are other parts of the equation.

Thanks, all! My curiosity is much sated.

Sorry, I sort of thought this was well known as it has been heavily discussed over the years. My feathers were not ruffled in anyway, sorry that I seemed to have unintentionally ruffled yours.

[Josh Crutchley]

I wish I could find prices for CPM-M4 vs ingot M4 or CPM-D2 vs ingot D2 to demonstrate.

Niagara sells them both and Cpm-D2 comes in at ~26% more expensive than D2.

https://nsm-ny.com/product/cpm-d-2/
https://nsm-ny.com/product/d-2/

[Bolster]

Sorry, I sort of thought this was well known as it has been heavily discussed over the years. My feathers were not ruffled in anyway, sorry that I seemed to have unintentionally ruffled yours.

No ruffles here either; sorry, I think I overly-much underscored, bolded, and capitalized a point I was trying to make.

Steel is free. Anyone can just go stake a claim & dig it out of the ground.

I think you mean STEAL is free; owning a piece of the ground is expensive. At least those two things are true here in California. You can steal up to $1000 from Home Depot or Walmart and you only get a slap on the wrist if you are caught (everyone is instructed not to pursue or interfere with thievery, so apprehension is rare); but an acre in southwest Los Angles will set you back $12 million.

Buying knife steel I can get D2 for $18, 1075/1085 for $22 or Magnacut for $115 for the same size piece.

As Josh reports, PM D2 is about 26% more expensive than ingot D2. In the 440C/S90V comparison above, the S90V is about 60% more. But the prices you are seeing between D2 to Magnacut are considerably more magnified—Magnacut around 6x as much. Wow. I can only hope Dr. Larrin gets the lion's share and becomes as rich as Croesus.