I might be in the minority opinion here, but am I the only one who doesn't get excited when Spyderco announces a 'linerless' model? The centering woes of the Para 3 LW, and the poor action in every Native 5 LW I've handled just gives me pause for concern, particularly towards the latest Stretch XL.
I don't mind it as much in models that retain bronze washers like the G10 Native 5 or the Manix LW, but I doubt a linerless seki model is going to retain this philosophy and will instead use the integrated FRN 'washers' of the salt series.
There's just something so nice about a smooth bronze washer action, as well as the structural 'rigidity' of full steel liners. Is the weight difference that meaningful to sacrifice these things for? I've yet to handle a salt or native 5 LW that had action better than the S90V native 5 I used to own
Last edited by Harkwit on Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I mostly agree with you, however I would be agreeable to partial liners. Also, the coated blade on the White Rex-45 Native LW has a very good action on it. My other non-coated liner-less Native LWs have, at best, a "meh" action.
"...it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill
“Maybe the cheese in the mousetrap is an artificially created cheaper price?” -Sal
While I don't see the centering on the Para 3 LW as an "issue" at all, I too also prefer PB-washer actions. I actually think that the Para 3 LW offers the best total compromise as it has a partial steel liner, a PB washer and bare FRN on the other side, which allows the user to easily tune the action to be drop-shut with no play if that's what they're looking for.
Really depends on the model. I wouldn't want every knife either way. I think they do sometimes offer a false sense of added strength, I bet most things that would break a Pacific would also break an Endura.
Funny, I've been thinking about liners lately. I've wondered why the Seki line has not moved to strictly linerless models. They already have most of the moulds already made. They have years of real-world data to back up the toughness, etc. Wouldn't it also reduce production costs? Of course it isn't as strong as a version with liners.
i think the manix 2 lightweight should be the benchmark for "linerless" knives. the m2lw only has those little metal inserts that the blade rides on instead of the plastic and it's still a very solid knife, structurally speaking. if something similar had been used in the p3lw instead of having it ride on the plastic, it no doubt would've been much better received by people that prefer liners.
i use linerless salts all the time. the action isn't as pleasing, but it doesn't bother me enough to not use them. they serve a specific purpose and i can appreciate the different design philosophy behind them. given a choice though, i'd prefer the action and sturdiness afforded by the inclusion of at least partial liners.
Generally, I really like liners. I don't see the point in smaller models like the ladybug or dragonfly (as well as certain others in the salt lineup), but anything smaller than a Native really isn't for me anyway. I like the rigidity and small bit of weight that liners add, as well as the aid they'd provide in an emergency where hard use (as in, things we typically would never do with our knives) was necessary. To me liners instill confidence in the strength of the pivot, and gives the knife an appearance of exhibiting higher quality. I also don't like lightweight models much either. I skip right over any lightweight models unless they're in a new "super steel" I'd really like to get my hands on (almost got the native in Maxamet back when it dropped). The added strength and heft may not be "necessary", but some would argue carrying a knife isn't necessary to begin with. I also prefer G10 over FRN ergos. I also wish models with pakkawood (and liners) were more prevalent. Those just radiate quality to me.
I have my Stretch XL on me today and you’re right, it doesn’t have the best action. But it’s so light for it’s tremendous size that it still makes it into my pocket regularly. It plays a different role than my Military, which is similar size and ultra smooth, but doesn’t carry as nicely.
I like the models with liners but I also like and appreciate the models without liners.
Poor action on the Native 5 LWs? I have at least 6 N5 LWs and I think they're all great considering no liners or bronze washers. They're all reasonably smooth and when open I can push the lock bar and the blade drops 90°and allows me to close it the rest of the way with my thumb. My linerless G10 N5 is nice too. I still have 1 N5 with liners and it's developed a weird click when I open and close it. I still haven't figured out why it's doing that
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!
There's definitely a good feeling with full liners, rigid, safe, etc. And nothing feels quite as nice as washers, plural, when opening a spydie imo.
On the other hand, I've yet to ever feel like my FRN/linerless options weren't safe or rigid enough for my uses. I've almost used them harder just to take a peek behind this curtain, and they never even come close to making me uneasy.
The way I see it, some people get along okay in a little econo-car with a 5-speed manual and crank windows, other people prefer heated seats and more rigidity between them and the road, in this instance the road being what's uncut.
As for N5LW weirdness, those things need a LOT of open/close cycles sometimes, and I've even had them smooth out better when tightening the pivot from factory just a touch. Anecdotal though, every pivot will be tightened a little differently.
While I marvel at my unlined Spydies, I prefer lined ones.
My favorite kind are found in the Caribbean. They’re skeletonized AND nested. The weight they add is hardly consequential, but they do make the model more expensive.
I’m not surprised Spyderco is under pressure to cut costs, but talk of cost-cutting does make me nervous.
I remain a skeptic of my Stretch XL because costs have been cut along with the weight.
-Marc (pocketing an S30V Military2 today)
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
Back before the Endura 4 and Delica 4 came out, ALL FRN Spydercos were linerless.
I like both liners and linerless. The latter is better for the FRN Salt models, as there are fewer places for moisture, sand/dirt, fish guts, etc., to become trapped in.
As for Golden's G10 backlocks, I prefer them without liners. Mine are very solid, and they have smooth action and crisp "walk and talk." And again, fewer places to potentially trap moisture.
On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, I have no interest when a new model with liners is announced, but do get excited about new linerless models.
My Para 3 LW has no centering problem, all three of my Native 5s open and close smoothly, and I think my new Stretch XL is the bee's knees.
I've never found unlined FRN to be insufficiently rigid while cutting and I don't want the (in my mind) unnecessary extra weight of liners, even skeletonized ones. So, personally, I hope to see more linerless FRN in the future, and not just Salts.
Funny, I've been thinking about liners lately. I've wondered why the Seki line has not moved to strictly linerless models. They already have most of the moulds already made. They have years of real-world data to back up the toughness, etc. Wouldn't it also reduce production costs? Of course it isn't as strong as a version with liners.
There is seemingly nothing stopping them from using Salt 2 and Pacific 2 handles on the Delica and Endura. I think it would suit the "lightweight" designation much better. The Pacific comes in at 2.9oz while the Endura is advertised at 3.6oz. I sure would like to see the behind the scenes failure testing on these knives to know if that extra 0.7oz amounts to anything more than extra weight.
I sure would like to see the behind the scenes failure testing on these knives to know if that extra 0.7oz amounts to anything more than extra weight.
Me too! Something it definitely amounts to is the perception of extra strength, as this and other forum threads prove. And that's probably enough to keep those liners in the Delica and Endura forever.
Many times I've almost pulled the trigger on a Delica or Endura because of some wonderful steel, and then backed off because of those liners.
I'm in the 'prefers liners' with FRN camp. That being said, I've never had a problem with the native LW or a manix LW. I only wish the para 3 LW had a partial liner. The blade centering on my s90v teal version is so misaligned that it scrapes the scale when opening. I don't even care about blade centering but this drives me nuts. I'm a big fan of the delica, endura, and police. It's nice that my pacific salt is virtually maintenance free, but the knife does not feel as rigid as my endura. I'd love a liner (or even a partial liner) version of the stretch XL.
the weight doesn't bother me as much as corrosion concerns. ill take slightly worse action and a rust proof handle over better action in a handle that can rust. Just my priorities.
I definitely get the appeal of fully linered g10 models. They feel much nicer than the FRN lightweights. But my fully linered knives typically sit at home, while the lightweight salts see all the pocket time.
