Tough and Economical Carbon Steel for the Value Folder Lineup?

[Toucan]

We're lucky enough that the Value Folders from China have joined the Golden Lineup and the Seki City Endura Family in getting their own high performance variants. It's great that our favorite standbys from our favorite factories across the world can come with blue handles and S110V, K390, or S35VN.

BUT

Part of me wishes the Value Folder variants went in a different direction. Something that would keep costs down and maybe offer superior performance in different parameters besides edge retention. In an affordable work knife, I really like a little extra toughness. I imagine an alternate reality where the Tenacious variant is 52100 instead of S35VN. The cost is $45 instead of $100+.

Some might say "Why not something like a Cru-Wear variant instead?" It's true that Cru-Wear is plenty tough, and a more wear resistant steel than 52100, but I have the same problem with it that I do S35VN; it would at least double the cost of the knife. It could be argued that it is still a good value relative to comparable models, but it still puts the variant out of reach for many. An economical and novel steel would be very good for getting folks into variants and exploring steel properties while not breaking the bank. This would fuse the ethos of the Value Lineup with the ethos of offering afi variants.

Plus, whether this is a legitimate critique or not, S35VN is ubiquitous to the point of fatigue. Even though 52100 is over a 100 years old at this point, it still has some mystique as an uncommon and old school steel used by makers like Wayne Goddard and Ed Fowler.

I'd like to reiterate that I am still happy that the S35VN Value Lineup exists. I'm hoping that an S35VN Astute variant comes out soon. I just also wish there was a budget carbon steel variant as well.

[Coastal]

I agree 100%. I would buy a 52100 or comparable value folder in a heartbeat.

[Danke]

The vast majority of the people buying the value folders would rush carbon steels to death in short order and then complain about it.

Knives for people like that have to adhere to K.I.S.S.

[VooDooChild]

I have said a few times that I would like to see another run of 52100.

[Toucan]

The vast majority of the people buying the value folders would rush carbon steels to death in short order and then complain about it.

Knives for people like that have to adhere to K.I.S.S.

I could see this if it were a $14-$20 knife sold at a big box store. People tend to treat that sort of knife as disposable.

I still think there is a decent contingency of cost-conscious consumers that would be interested and be aware of special maintenance needs. All Spyderco knives made with carbon steel come with a warning as far as I can tell anyways.

Plenty of people still buy cheap carbon steel Opinels, Douk-Douks, Higonokamis, and Mercators.

[Danke]

Not a big instructions guy myself.

[TkoK83Spy]

I know where you can find some 52100 on the swap page

[Toucan]

I know where you can find some 52100 on the swap page

Hahah, don't get me wrong, I really do want some Spydie 52100. But for the kinda cash they demand on the secondary market, I would probably look into some custom knives or a bargain bin Cold Steel.

[Fireman]

An apocalypse fixed knife in 52100 from Spyderco would be rad. I have some designs if you like

[Toucan]

An apocalypse fixed knife in 52100 from Spyderco would be rad. I have some designs if you like

Always down to see people's designs!

[Fireman]

I have a super secret project that is in the works. You can probably get one by the end of the year.

[Toucan]

Sounds mysterious. Lemme know when it's available. I didn't realize you were a knife maker.

[zhyla]

I used to think carbon steel had some advantages. Larrin’s summary of edge retention of all those steels has really made me question that.

There is some advantages — I can buy 1095 and O-1 easily, and I can heat treat it in my garage. And it’s cheap. But in a production knife I don’t see it except as a cost savings on large fixed blades.

52100 has worse edge retention than 8CrMoV13. Why would we want that in a budget knife? Most owners won’t ever sharpen it and will let it rust, worsening the edge retention even further.

[Bemo]

My question is do we really know the toughness of 8CrMov13? I've not seen Larrin test it. I can tell you from my experiences with a Spyderco Efficient (great knife btw) that it bends long before it breaks and the edge rolls long before it chips. But this is purely anecdotal of one sample of an abused knife. And I'm by no means a fan of 8CrMov13, would take BDN1 any day over it. But really when looking at balanced steels.... is it all that bad?

[sal]

Hi Toucan,

Using a carbon steel is not going to make a big difference in cost. To think that you can go from $100 to $45 by using carbon steel is not realistic. Also 52100 is a PITA to make in production because of how easily it rusts. It could cost more.

Most of the cost in making a knife is in labor. Turning raw materials into a good quality knife requires knowledge, equipment and skill. All of those processes will be the same. Some steels might cost more to process because they be more complex, harder to grind, etc.

sal

[Wartstein]

I´d actually go all the way and make it in a really "basic" tool steel like O1. Just for the "real tool steel looks" coming only from use (see pic below - not a Spyderco) and extreme ease and fun of sharpening...

[curlyhairedboy]

The vast majority of the people buying the value folders would rush carbon steels to death in short order and then complain about it.

Knives for people like that have to adhere to K.I.S.S.

This. Budget knives that have a good reputation are the ones that can be driven hard, cleaned never, and come back for more.

Rusted shut because it got left out during a rainy week is not a good look. Not to mention the galvanic corrosion factors...

[Toucan]

Hi Toucan,

Using a carbon steel is not going to make a big difference in cost. To think that you can go from $100 to $45 by using carbon steel is not realistic. Also 52100 is a PITA to make in production because of how easily it rusts. It could cost more.

Most of the cost in making a knife is in labor. Turning raw materials into a good quality knife requires knowledge, equipment and skill. All of those processes will be the same. Some steels might cost more to process because they be more complex, harder to grind, etc.

sal

Thanks for the reply Sal! I was definitely guessing on the costs, sorry if I caused offence. I was mostly basing my assumptions comparing the $50 Tenacious LW in 8CR13MOV to the $100 Tenacious LW in S35VN. I assumed the increase in cost was mostly from novel materials, not extra labor.

[sal]

Hi Toucan,

No offense taken. I just thought to share information.

S35VN needs to get to China ( extra cost), it's more expensive than locally made 8Cr, and there is limited equipment for heat treating equipment. (also extra cost).

sal

[Toucan]

Hi Toucan,

No offense taken. I just thought to share information.

S35VN needs to get to China ( extra cost), it's more expensive than locally made 8Cr, and there is limited equipment for heat treating equipment. (also extra cost).

sal

Gotcha. I had hoped a ball bearing steel like 52100 or an analogue there of could be readily sourced in China and relativity easy to heat treat, but it seems like the supplies, processes, and equipment to make everything work are very fine-tuned. I hadn't even thought of the rust issues and stuff. Thanks for sharing a little bit of the behind the scenes logistics.