Spyderco Forums

Quick and practically speaking totally irrelevant question:

- Does the phosphor bronze alloy of (Spydercos) washers technically count as a metal or not?

- Bronze alone IS a metal of course
- Phosphor alone is NOT
- But what about the alloy of the two?

Why am I asking?

Got a stainless steel handled Endura, and wondered if this knife is actually made 100% out of one single basic material ("metal").
The washers are the only part I can think of where I am not sure.

(I do hope Dr. Larrin will read this and reply... )

PB washers are over 99% copper and tin.

^ exactly. The amount of Phosphorus is 0.01% - 0.35%. It's basically just copper and tin.

PB is metal alloy, similar to steel (that also contains nonmetal - carbon).

Accutron wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:03 am

PB washers are over 99% copper and tin.

Xplorer wrote: ^ exactly. The amount of Phosphorus is 0.01% - 0.35%. It's basically just copper and tin.

cali wrote: PB is metal alloy, similar to steel (that also contains nonmetal - carbon).

Thanks, guys, did not know that!

As said, practically speaking of no relevance at all, but still a knife made of basically just one single "material" ("metal", that´s very broadly speaking of course) is somehow cool and fascinating...

If there is 1% carbon in VG10, and .35% phosphorous in the washers, there is more non-metallic stuff in the blade itself than in the washers.

Some good reading just grab a nice drink. Don't lay down when you read this.

https://www.copper.org/publications/new ... ronze.html

https://www.copper.org/resources/proper ... ronze.html

I am way out of my league here, but probably the same as saying adding Nitrogen to BD1. BD1N is still fully steel. The Nitrogen addition just allows for higher hardness.

CTS BD1N steel is made up of 0.85-0.95 Carbon, 1.0 Manganese, 0.30 Phosphorus, 0.01 Sulfur, 1.0 Silicon, 15.0-17.0 Chromium, 0.5 Molybdenum, and 0.10-0.15% Nitrogen.

JSumm wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:35 am

Some good reading just grab a nice drink. Don't lay down when you read this.

https://www.copper.org/publications/new ... ronze.html

https://www.copper.org/resources/proper ... ronze.html

I am way out of my league here, but probably the same as saying adding Nitrogen to BD1. BD1N is still fully steel. The Nitrogen addition just allows for higher hardness.

CTS BD1N steel is made up of 0.85-0.95 Carbon, 1.0 Manganese, 0.30 Phosphorus, 0.01 Sulfur, 1.0 Silicon, 15.0-17.0 Chromium, 0.5 Molybdenum, and 0.10-0.15% Nitrogen.

Thanks for the infos and the links!

In a hurry right now, but will read them later!

/ As said: Somehow the concept of a folder made of - very broadly taken - exclusively just "one material" ("metal") is cool, though of no practical relevance.
Even cooler would be "exclusively made out of steel", but this is were phosphor-bronce can´t be squeezed in anymore...

The word order tells the story. The phosphor acts as an adjective describing the bronze. It is bronze metal with a bit of phosphor.

An all-steel folding knife with steel washers instead of bronze could be made to function, but why? Bronze on steel is inherently more slippery than steel on steel is. For a pivot washer, slippery is what you want. Another benefit is that the bronze washer, being softer than the steel, will take more of the wear where they touch. A washer is much cheaper to replace than a blade or a handle.

Bill1170 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:14 am

An all-steel folding knife with steel washers instead of bronze could be made to function, but why? Bronze on steel is inherently more slippery than steel on steel is. For a pivot washer, slippery is what you want. Another benefit is that the bronze washer, being softer than the steel, will take more of the wear where they touch. A washer is much cheaper to replace than a blade or a handle.

100% agreed!

As said from the beginning: This has no practical background or implication!

It´s just when I got my stainless steel Endura I suddenly realized that this is probably as close as it get´s too "folder made of only one single "material" ".
I found the idea and concept of this fascinating in a way, but am actually glad of course that my Endura has phosphor bronze and not steel washers, no matter if it was a "knife wholly made out of steel" then...

Do FRN Endura 4s have pivot washers? I thought they did not, or at least IIRC my Pac Salt II did not.

The Pac Salt does not have washers or liners. The Endura/Endela/Delica line does have washers and liners.

derangedhermit wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:12 pm

Do FRN Endura 4s have pivot washers? I thought they did not, or at least IIRC my Pac Salt II did not.

I think the stainless steel Endura has.. (not 100% sure though: This one is impossible to disassemble)

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:29 pm

derangedhermit wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:12 pm

Do FRN Endura 4s have pivot washers? I thought they did not, or at least IIRC my Pac Salt II did not.

I think the stainless steel Endura has.. (not 100% sure though: This one is impossible to disassemble)

I think the trend is that metal-on-metal pivots get washers and metal-on-FRN pivots do not. Metal-on-G10 - I could check my Native Chief, but I think it has washers. I guess the thinking is the FRN is pretty low friction, so it works OK, and the knife blade will wear out before the FRN around the pivot does. I don't know how often that will be prove to be correct.

I can't help feeling that making a recessed space for "real" pivot bushings in the FRN would show an emphasis on purposeful longevity (as well as smooth operation) for Spyderco knives, even ones with linerless FRN grip panels.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:29 pm

derangedhermit wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:12 pm

Do FRN Endura 4s have pivot washers? I thought they did not, or at least IIRC my Pac Salt II did not.

I think the stainless steel Endura has.. (not 100% sure though: This one is impossible to disassemble)

Not impossible to disassemble, but reassembly requires considerable skill.

I was under the impression that stainless handles knives don't use washers, otherwise you'd see the gaps between the blade and handle slabs.

JSumm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:23 pm

The Pac Salt does not have washers or liners. The Endura/Endela/Delica line does have washers and liners.

So, too, the non-XL Stretches.

I do wish the XL had been linered and washered like its overbuilt brethren, but I guess saltwater is in its future (as is, the Pac Salt is my go-to for that environment).

JSumm wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:35 am

Some good reading just grab a nice drink. Don't lay down when you read this.

https://www.copper.org/publications/new ... ronze.html

https://www.copper.org/resources/proper ... ronze.html

I am way out of my league here, but probably the same as saying adding Nitrogen to BD1. BD1N is still fully steel. The Nitrogen addition just allows for higher hardness.

CTS BD1N steel is made up of 0.85-0.95 Carbon, 1.0 Manganese, 0.30 Phosphorus, 0.01 Sulfur, 1.0 Silicon, 15.0-17.0 Chromium, 0.5 Molybdenum, and 0.10-0.15% Nitrogen.

Great links. I love that nerd stuff

wrdwrght wrote: ↑

Wed May 18, 2022 9:18 am

JSumm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:23 pm

The Pac Salt does not have washers or liners. The Endura/Endela/Delica line does have washers and liners.

So, too, the non-XL Stretches.

I do wish the XL had been linered and washered like its overbuilt brethren, but I guess saltwater is in its future (as is, the Pac Salt is my go-to for that environment).

Why do you say that? I’m only asking as I was wondering about replacing my frn P4 with a Stretch XL.