Spyderco Forums

I'm pretty sure break-even would fall around the total number of Mules sold so far, but we can hope anyway. If they cover the whole tang, I'd be in for a set or twenty.

I love the idea of contoured frn scales along the lines of the Aquasalt. I don’t want to have to fit them, but it would be nice to minimize the height of exposed tang. I’d like them available in colors, specifically safety orange.

Spyderco could also consider making liners too, the end user could combine liners and scales for a personalized look. Black scales and bright liners (toxic green, yellow, orange, pink, etc.) would make a cool effect.

sal wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:46 pm

Hi Zive,

I think it's a good idea. We've been going more and more to FRN handles because of the "bang for the buck". Textures galore, lower costs, easier manufacturing, etc. I think we'll just "hide-n-watch" for a while and see reaction to the project for a while.

sal

At least there's hope!

" I think we'll just "hide-n-watch" for a while and see reaction to the project" (says Sal)

So there is the answer. Keep buying the mules and keep the interest level up and the whole thing will gain momentum and anything is possible.

Interest level increased!

On the mule scales, I am assuming that with the different number of models that use them the cost of tooling pay back is quick.
I don't know there business model but industry wide in plastics the cost is the mold base. Everything else is inserts. When we look at new product lines we ran tooling aluminum inserts to judge interest, they were good for a few thousand part runs.
If the demand was there they are replaced with hardened production inserts. With cad and the CNC machinery costs are just programming. Multable sizes simply interchange. Color change is just adding the color in the material before injection.
Just my thoughts and ramblings from 42 years building plastic injection molds.
Frederick

Hi Frederick,

Thanks for dropping some knowledge. Plastics manufacturing is not my area of expertise. When you mention “hardened production inserts” are those made of steel or another material in your experience? What is the approximate cost difference between a set of aluminum and hardened molds?

Thanks for explaining this

Is there such a thing as sheets of 1/8" or 1/4" FRN or FRCP that would allow the modifier/builder to make scales? Or are they ONLY cast? I have been looking for FRN and FRCP sheet and have come up short. (The lightest weight manufactured material I've been able to source is TeroTuf.)

There is also 3d printing scales. I've been working on some and using various different materials that may be comparable to FRN. So far I've tried PLA+ and NylonX. I have some ASA (which is waterproof) but haven't printed with it yet. I also want to to try NylonG, which is similar to the plastic that is used for cordless power tools.

Fharing45 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:18 am

On the mule scales, I am assuming that with the different number of models that use them the cost of tooling pay back is quick.
I don't know there business model but industry wide in plastics the cost is the mold base. Everything else is inserts. When we look at new product lines we ran tooling aluminum inserts to judge interest, they were good for a few thousand part runs.
If the demand was there they are replaced with hardened production inserts. With cad and the CNC machinery costs are just programming. Multable sizes simply interchange. Color change is just adding the color in the material before injection.
Just my thoughts and ramblings from 42 years building plastic injection molds.
Frederick

The problem is, although there have been a lot of different steels, there is essentially only one model, and it has been very limited in number. I know I have a bunch of naked Mules, but I don't know how many others do. If they are releasing between 1000 and 2000 Mules per year, and only 50% of the buyers opt to buy FRN scales as well, it may take a long time to pay off the investment in a new mold. That could change if Sal decides to implement one or more of the suggestions that have been tossed out here, but nothing is set in stone yet.

In the mold world we have multable mold bases that are genetic. Meaning they can use multable inserts across product lines for low cost. We use these to protype new parts.
That being said i was neither trying to advise Sal nor hijack this thread. In my world of plastic part design and development I simply make suggestions that make since to sometimes only (me). Almost all new parts i have been a part of started life in a protype stage, and if sucessful went into production stages.
With a good stp file, or even a dxf file we can manipulate to 3d. Then protyping isnt impossible.

Frederick

It is good information to have, and I am guilty of far worse "thread drift" than talking about the process of making FRN scales in a thread about FRN scales. I have no experience in that area, but I do understand a little about scale. Any way you go, temporary or full production, there is some cost to create tooling. The person working on the computer to create the file that tells the machines what to do wants to be paid. The raw materials that will become an insert have to be purchased. The electricity to power the mill isn't free, etc. It all adds up, and the fewer pieces you are going to make, the more each piece will cost.

According to Kristi's list of past Mules, a total of about 16,500 Mules have been made and sold over the last 13 years. That is only 1,270 pieces per year. How many people are going to want FRN scales for the past Mules? My guess would be, not many. So production would be based largely on speculation and future sales. What will each piece cost if you make 600 pairs as opposed to 6000 pairs? That cost difference can be the difference between "no brainer, get it" and "you've got to be kidding, no way".

Frederick, your information is not drift, it is pertinent to the discussion.

I think having well fitting and affordable handles will cause an increase in demand for the Mule releases, but it is still a gamble for Spyderco.

That's part of the problem. If we go by the last Mule alone, demand has left supply in the dust, and Mule quantities are locked in way in advance. Readily available FRN scales may well increase that demand, so the next release could cause an even worse feeding frenzy than the last one. And let us not forget, there is very little profit in the Mules for Spyderco. If Sal should decide to make one or more Mules a part of the regular line, having those scales available would make financial sense, and it *might* take the pressure off the new releases. But if being put into the regular line means additional markup and distribution through the normal channels, the price could kill interest in the whole project, or at least result in a slow seller that gets cut in a year or two.

As much as I personally would like to see them, I don't know if the volume of sales could ever cover the cost of tooling up to make them, even with temporary/prototyping inserts.

yablanowitz wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:25 am

That's part of the problem. If we go by the last Mule alone, demand has left supply in the dust, and Mule quantities are locked in way in advance. Readily available FRN scales may well increase that demand, so the next release could cause an even worse feeding frenzy than the last one.

So Spyderco shouldn’t offer FRN scales because that would increase interest/demand in future Mule releases?

I get the financial considerations for offering these or not, which only those within the company can truly know, but I don’t see the point of not offering FRN in addition to G10 because it would make their product too attractive to customers.

We'll soon know. If the next one is sold out at 10:05 on the 22nd, I'd say a new plan is called for. If the Mules were part of the regular line, getting normal markup and generating normal profits for the company, then by all means increase the demand. As it is, this is a labor of love and a gift from Sal to us. Cranking up demand for that just sounds...demanding...to me, something I strive not to be.

Fharing45 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:21 pm

In the mold world we have multable mold bases that are genetic...

Thanks for the info Frederick. Question: Does such a thing as flat sheets of 1/8 or 1/4" FRN or FRCP or other similar lighweight material exist? I think many of us would be capable of bandsawing scales and then rounding the corners...no custom molding necessarily needed from Spyderco, if flat sheet were available...

...but it may not be, I can't find it. If you can find it, I'll award you the honorary title of Hero of Muledom.

Regards supply and demand issues, everyone hates on me when I propose this solution (and yes I understand why) but to get supply and demand roughly equivalent, S-co could increase the price of mules. I don't think S-co should be in the business of 'distributing' to steel junkies at no profit. Personally I think the SPY27 mules were way under market value at $50. OK, go ahead and yell at me. Sal doesn't listen to me anyway (he stopped producing Caly 3, didn't he?) so who cares what I think.

OTOH, S-co has an opportunity here to sell a range of aftermarket items for the Mules (provided they produce Mules in sufficient numbers). I bet they'd sell more FRN scales at higher markup than Lil Native Rocks Glasses.

I really like Spyderco as a company and I want them to succeed, so I hope they charge a sustainable amount. Sal doesn't have a private jet, does he?

I would also prefer FRN to other scales just put that out there.

Bolster wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:49 pm

Does such a thing as flat sheets of 1/8 or 1/4" FRN or FRCP or other similar lighweight material exist?

Sure... with the caveat that we don't really know exactly what Spyderco's FRN and FRCP are. It's as if I told you my truck had steel connecting rods and aluminum pistons. You'll know a little bit about the engine, but not really anything useful.

With that said, there are a bazillion flavors of plastic sheets available. If I needed something, my first stop would be McMaster-Carr. They have everything under the sun. Their prices aren't the cheapest, but they're a no-nonsense company that's been around forever. I just did a quick search, and found many flavors of nylon, delrin, copolymer, monopolymer, glass-filled, kevlar filled, carbon fiber, etc. Just a tip... McMaster caters to the professional who knows what he wants. If you need to ask questions, they might not be for you. But their online catalog should be able to get you started.

Now you have me curious. Browsing around, I found G10 sheets in a couple colors. It's CHEAP. Also, there's some stuff called vulcanized fiber, made out of cotton fabric.

www.mcmaster.com

Hi Frederick,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for your input.

To those that been following our company for a while know that we've been moving more and more to injection molded handles and scales. There are several advantages to FRN: Lower cost, not counting tooling. Very tough material, Intricate texturing. etc.

As Jack mentioned, the Mule Team is not part of the normal "business" model so plans deviate. At any given time, we may have 5 or 6 molds being made somewhere. If the demand is there, it will certainly be considered. Right now we're trying to stabilize the volume to make. The Mule Team project has certainly become more popular recently. We disco'd the project a few years ago due to lack of interest so we must watch closely.

Currently we're trying to sort the volume to make of each steel in the future. The way to distribute Larrin's new MagnaCut, which will not doubt be high in demand. The way to get product to our overseas customers with interest. That in addition to negotiating with foundries to make small runs of steel that they generally don't keep in stock.

We are planning to make a steady run of Mule Team 2 pieces of SPY27 as a standard to be available regularly. It has a slightly different shape to distinguish it from regular Mule Teams. If the demand is there, we will more than likely make an FRN mold with our bi-directional texture so parts can be available. Maybe even with colors?

CQI (Constand Quality Improvement) demands that we pay attention. For example, we tooled up for the "Enuff" model scales. The Enuff with the shorter thicker blade has not been popular enough to maintain inventory (except in the serrated H1 version). We've retooled a blade to fit the current scales. 4" long and thinner blade stock with a new FRN sheath also being tooled. As the market develops and our particular market grows, The future is always challenging for which to prepare.

sal