The upcoming Salt 2 ffg: Spydercos (Mini-) Bugout alternative and more? Perfect ultralight hiking knife?

[Xformer]

Might agree with the comment above. Backpackers I know are the most anti knives person I've ever met. An opinel would be the maximum they'd carry and it would mostly be to cut cheese...

Really a shame because there are a lot of knives designed for them and many funny uses in the wild, like learning to make feather stick and safely start a camp fire.

[ladybug93]

but you don't need a knife for your homemade soda can stove.

the ul thing is cool, but i don't understand how people can want to be outdoors without the most basic survival tools. since learning about salts, i don't even swim without a knife anymore.

[u.w.]

Hey Gernot/Wartstein, (and others who'd be interested too)

51 grams / 1.798 ounces (lighter than a Bugout)






Finally got the "Hyker" model :-) I'm pretty happy and excited about this!

u.w.

I can't see your pics. I was interested in your mod. Here's mine.

Nice mod-ing!

Flickr has let me know that I have to many non-public photos, and so the majority of the photos I have there and have posted, are no longer visible.

I still have and carry my very light (51 gram, so lighter than the bugout) and very capable modded Salt 2 weekly, on all of my trail runs and hikes.
(The two exception to that being the Long Creek Ultra I did a few weeks back now ,02 April 23, which I had the UKPK Drop Point in my pocket for. Lovely time of it for sure! While "relatively" short at just over 60K/~40 mi, I was still doing a bit of the laugh/cry combo toward the end, LOL! AND the month, June or July if I remember correctly, that I carried my H1 PacSalt a year or so back now).

I'll take a few photos of my now years old, with thousands of miles under it's belt, modded into what I call the Hyker, Salt 2 and post them. It was in my pocket when I did the High Bridge Ultra this past December. I've got before/after photos of each run that I may post? While not even remotely thinking about it for the photos, the knives are clearly visible in my pocket in the photos.

I will add that, my [Salt 2] has seen extensive use and I have been completely satisfied with my green LC200N FFG Salt 2 over the years; and I am a even bit of an "edge junky"/"sharpening nerd" at that, so :-)

u.w.

[Mushroom]

Now that you mention it, it probably the best Spyderco alternative to a Bugout. You bring up some really good points.

I had kind of dedicated my Para 3 LW as my backpacking knife but thinking about it now, I think I need a FFG Salt 2 to fill that role.

Hey Nick,

happened to dig up this old thread I started once and came across your above post...

Would be interested if you then actually gave the FFG Salt 2 a try or at least a further thought?

Regrettably, I have not yet. I even tried to use fishing as an excuse to buy one but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I still reach for the Para 3 LW as a hiking knife and a Salt 1 stays in one of my tackle boxes. Maybe ill finally grab one for hiking and fishing this year.

but you don't need a knife for your homemade soda can stove.

the ul thing is cool, but i don't understand how people can want to be outdoors without the most basic survival tools. since learning about salts, i don't even swim without a knife anymore.

You don't need a knife for pretty much anything while backpacking. (At least, I generally don’t) I always bring one with me though just because I want to.

I understand the theory behind UL hiking and I’m very guilty of buying gear specifically to lighten my load, but its not a hard and fast rule I live by while hiking. I have no problem bringing luxury items like a knife with me on backpacking trips.

[ladybug93]

but you don't need a knife for your homemade soda can stove.

the ul thing is cool, but i don't understand how people can want to be outdoors without the most basic survival tools. since learning about salts, i don't even swim without a knife anymore.

You don't need a knife for pretty much anything while backpacking. (At least, I generally don’t) I always bring one with me though just because I want to.

I understand the theory behind UL hiking and I’m very guilty of buying gear specifically to lighten my load, but its not a hard and fast rule I live by while hiking. I have no problem bringing luxury items like a knife with me on backpacking trips.

same here. i find the outdoors to be the place where i find things to use a knife for though. i enjoy whittling on a stick by the fire or setting up small makeshift shelters for fun. whether i need it or not, i usually have a variety of knives on me in the wild places. that said, i don't do any real distance hiking where ul matters. if i did, i'd still carry a mora, a bahco laplander, my vic rangergrip as a backup, and probably my pac salt. that's a fairly capable lw tool kit for when nature turns on you.

[aicolainen]

same here. i find the outdoors to be the place where i find things to use a knife for though. i enjoy whittling on a stick by the fire or setting up small makeshift shelters for fun. whether i need it or not, i usually have a variety of knives on me in the wild places. that said, i don't do any real distance hiking where ul matters. if i did, i'd still carry a mora, a bahco laplander, my vic rangergrip as a backup, and probably my pac salt. that's a fairly capable lw tool kit for when nature turns on you.

There’s a lot that can turn on you while hiking and it’s important to identify those risks and plan accordingly.
It’s also important to be realistic about risks and don’t pack your every fear.
Good research, route planning, knowing the terrain and conditions you’ll be passing through, practical and physical preparation, i.e. knowing your body and gear are all extremely useful “tools” that don’t weigh anything.
Being able to move faster and with reduced risk of injury is also an innate safety feature of UL that makes up for some of the sacrifices made to lower the weight.

While a knife is a very versatile tool, it’s not very effective. Meaning that you typically have to invest a lot of effort (time + energy) to get something back. That is sometimes worthwhile, but not always. Especially when something has turned against you, you want low effort and predictable solutions.
More clothes, more food, avalanche gear, a spare bottle of petrol for your stove or a satellite com device are all examples of gear that can be more accessible solutions to possible problems when the smelly stuff hits the fan. Not dismissing the knife (or saw), just be realistic about what it can achieve in less than ideal circumstances.

For me personally knives, saws, fishing gear etc. make the most sense when they are part of a planned activity, and less so as part of a contingency plan on longer hikes.
It’s not a conclusion I arrived at easily, as I’m not only a knife enthusiast, but I normally take great pride in being prepared for every eventuality. But when covering distance is the main objective of a hike, I have to be very deliberate with what I carry. Unless I can identify a need for a specific cutting capability I go very minimal - like SAK minimal. I wont go smaller than an alox Bantam though.

[LeDe]

I wont go smaller than an alox Bantam though.

Well that is pretty much as light as it gets in the normal size models, doesn't it?
If I recall correctly it does not even have a corkscrew... How would you open your bottle of wine?

[Wartstein]

...

...

Would be interested if you then actually gave the FFG Salt 2 a try or at least a further thought?

Regrettably, I have not yet. I even tried to use fishing as an excuse to buy one but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I still reach for the Para 3 LW as a hiking knife and a Salt 1 stays in one of my tackle boxes. Maybe ill finally grab one for hiking and fishing this year.

.....

..

I seem to recall that you like the Delica (?), that could be a reason for trying out a Salt 2 ffg.

Other than that (and if complete rustproofness is not a necessity) I don´t think that the weight saving over the Para 3 realistically ever plays a role for 99.99 of the people.

I just like and enjoy the idea and concept that a folder can be so light and still so capable... and especially when mountaineering and covering a lot of vertical distance I am just used to optimizing my gear "weightwise" (which actually makes sense of course, but not if just one single item like a pocket knife is a bit "heavier" by 20 grams or so)

[aicolainen]

I wont go smaller than an alox Bantam though.

Well that is pretty much as light as it gets in the normal size models, doesn't it?

I’m not sure what’s considered to be a normal size, the 58mm models seems to be the most popular among UL hikers. Probably the most popular, period. Personally I struggle to find the blades on 58 and 74mm models useful for anything beyond very simple tasks like opening packages, cutting threads etc. Which is fine if you carry it as a second or third knife, or keep it as a stash knife somewhere, but to me they don’t cut it as primary/only knives for anything.

If I recall correctly it does not even have a corkscrew... How would you open your bottle of wine?

Interesting question, I’ve never given any thought to how that actually works out. My sherpa always brings me my wine in a proper wine glass.

[z1r]

but you don't need a knife for your homemade soda can stove.

the ul thing is cool, but i don't understand how people can want to be outdoors without the most basic survival tools. since learning about salts, i don't even swim without a knife anymore.

Yes, my Salt 2 LC200 gets plenty of pocket time in that capacity or my Salt DF2. I like the mini-bugout, but honestly feel the Salt 2 and even the H1 DF2 are more substantial and certainly better suited for use in or around water.

[LeDe]

I wont go smaller than an alox Bantam though.

Well that is pretty much as light as it gets in the normal size models, doesn't it?

I’m not sure what’s considered to be a normal size, the 58mm models seems to be the most popular among UL hikers. Probably the most popular, period. Personally I struggle to find the blades on 58 and 74mm models useful for anything beyond very simple tasks like opening packages, cutting threads etc. Which is fine if you carry it as a second or third knife, or keep it as a stash knife somewhere, but to me they don’t cut it as primary/only knives for anything.

I guess the 84/93mm range are the standard sizes. These are the original models.
I just checked and the classic is 21g vs 33g for the Bantam. For someone not into UL, that seems such a small difference.
Also based on specs, the Dragonfly Salt is only 1g heavier than the Bantam...

That reminds me I should try and pack lighter when ski touring. I am definitely not helping myself.

If I recall correctly it does not even have a corkscrew... How would you open your bottle of wine?

Interesting question, I’ve never given any thought to how that actually works out. My sherpa always brings me my wine in a proper wine glass.

I am fully reassured.

[aicolainen]

I guess the 84/93mm range are the standard sizes. These are the original models.
I just checked and the classic is 21g vs 33g for the Bantam. For someone not into UL, that seems such a small difference.
Also based on specs, the Dragonfly Salt is only 1g heavier than the Bantam...

This gets into the weeds, but here it goes. The alox Bantam is as small as I have yet to go for a backpacking knife. It's not my dedicated UL backpacking knife. I have also carried my Dragonfly salt and others. The point I was getting to in my first post yesterday is assessing the actual needs and not packing every fear and every nice to have. That's fine for some outings, but it's not the ideal priority if making big miles and/or elevation is a priority.
The DF2 is a better knife than the Bantam (IMO) and that added gram would obviously not matter if I just wanted the best knife, but this isn't about that. If I know I'll likely need a better knife, I'll probably 1UP and bring the Salt 2 FFG that this thread is about, or something else suited for the potential need I have identified.

The Bantam on the other hand, is what I'm likely to pack when no specific need is identified. It gives me a usable knife blade, a convenient flat head/pry tool and a rudimentary can opener in a very minimal package. This is where I expose myself as not being a true ultralight'er; it's my just in case item. This is what a true UL'er would have left out altogether and where the aspiring UL'ers would have carried a Classic SD instead.
I don't end up carrying my alox Bantam all that often, as I find I'm often better served by the tool combinations found on other MT's. And I wasn't totally honest in my previous post, as said Sherpa isn't very dependable and has failed me on 100% of my trips, so if wine is on the agenda I'll likely opt for my Sportsman. In fact, the Sportsman is often my choice for longer backpacking trips. Mainly for the improved can opener over the Bantam. The Norwegian Trekking Association has food depots in their self-service cabins and shelters that are spread out through the Norwegian mountains. A lot of that is canned food which can be can be part of a planned source for energy along the way, or as an emergency option. Either way I appreciate the better can opener.

In the winter, when I'm totally dependent on my skis, sled and stove, I'll carry even more implements so I'm able to maintain and repair critical equipment in the field. I used to pack a full featured Leatherman and think it could take care of everything nature and Murphy could threw at me, but with time and experience I realized it's very heavy and often not the best suited tool. I've found that a very deliberate selection of lightweight, dedicated tools, or such tools complementing a smaller MT with a minimal amount of redundant tools, is often a better option. Again, it's all about assessing the important and realistic needs, and not be married to the idea that any trip in the outdoors require a big ol' fixed blade, a wood saw or any other device we've been programmed to associate with a safe endeavor into the backcountry. I think you're probably on the same page, and that I initially expressed myself in a way that wasn't very clear. Hopefully this wall of text will clear things up, and if it doesn't - life surely goes on.

That reminds me I should try and pack lighter when ski touring. I am definitely not helping myself.

Just be reasonable about it and don't sacrifice your wine bottles to reach an arbitrary weight target. You'll be worse off for it.

[ladybug93]

i guess i just have a different motivation for going into the outdoors than most ul hikers do. i'm not interested in hiking great distances as quickly as possible. i'm not trying to race in the wilderness. i know someone that thru hiked the at in less than five months and also did the tour divide i just over twenty days. to me, that's just too fast. i want to take it all in. i want to explore and take my time. i want to experience it instead of seeing how fast i can get past it. so my version of minimalism in the woods will look different because i have different goals. i'd prefer more of a nessmuk approach to minimalism as opposed to the ul hiker approach.

[olywa]

Agreed. It's the journey, not the destination. Keep on truckin'...

[LeDe]

I guess the 84/93mm range are the standard sizes. These are the original models.
I just checked and the classic is 21g vs 33g for the Bantam. For someone not into UL, that seems such a small difference.
Also based on specs, the Dragonfly Salt is only 1g heavier than the Bantam...

This gets into the weeds, but here it goes. The alox Bantam is as small as I have yet to go for a backpacking knife. It's not my dedicated UL backpacking knife. I have also carried my Dragonfly salt and others. The point I was getting to in my first post yesterday is assessing the actual needs and not packing every fear and every nice to have. That's fine for some outings, but it's not the ideal priority if making big miles and/or elevation is a priority.
The DF2 is a better knife than the Bantam (IMO) and that added gram would obviously not matter if I just wanted the best knife, but this isn't about that. If I know I'll likely need a better knife, I'll probably 1UP and bring the Salt 2 FFG that this thread is about, or something else suited for the potential need I have identified.

The Bantam on the other hand, is what I'm likely to pack when no specific need is identified. It gives me a usable knife blade, a convenient flat head/pry tool and a rudimentary can opener in a very minimal package. This is where I expose myself as not being a true ultralight'er; it's my just in case item. This is what a true UL'er would have left out altogether and where the aspiring UL'ers would have carried a Classic SD instead.
I don't end up carrying my alox Bantam all that often, as I find I'm often better served by the tool combinations found on other MT's. And I wasn't totally honest in my previous post, as said Sherpa isn't very dependable and has failed me on 100% of my trips, so if wine is on the agenda I'll likely opt for my Sportsman. In fact, the Sportsman is often my choice for longer backpacking trips. Mainly for the improved can opener over the Bantam. The Norwegian Trekking Association has food depots in their self-service cabins and shelters that are spread out through the Norwegian mountains. A lot of that is canned food which can be can be part of a planned source for energy along the way, or as an emergency option. Either way I appreciate the better can opener.

In the winter, when I'm totally dependent on my skis, sled and stove, I'll carry even more implements so I'm able to maintain and repair critical equipment in the field. I used to pack a full featured Leatherman and think it could take care of everything nature and Murphy could threw at me, but with time and experience I realized it's very heavy and often not the best suited tool. I've found that a very deliberate selection of lightweight, dedicated tools, or such tools complementing a smaller MT with a minimal amount of redundant tools, is often a better option. Again, it's all about assessing the important and realistic needs, and not be married to the idea that any trip in the outdoors require a big ol' fixed blade, a wood saw or any other device we've been programmed to associate with a safe endeavor into the backcountry. I think you're probably on the same page, and that I initially expressed myself in a way that wasn't very clear. Hopefully this wall of text will clear things up, and if it doesn't - life surely goes on.

Thanks a lot for the long reply.
I dont think you were being unclear and I definitely understand the concerns.
I just was pointing out that for someone not regularly into those efforts (only get the chance to ski tour a couple of time a year), it is hard to realize how this small weight gains matters. I tend to be city bound and I carry a Victorinox Classic/Rambler + a medium sized model (and/or a Spyderco) a lot, and in this lifestyle I would not even notice that something is in my pocket.

But it opens the mind to read that and I will definitely pack lighter in the future for high effort adventures.

That reminds me I should try and pack lighter when ski touring. I am definitely not helping myself.

Just be reasonable about it and don't sacrifice your wine bottles to reach an arbitrary weight target. You'll be worse off for it.

Just when I thought you had shared all your wisdom. This advice will superseed the previous ones.

Best,