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Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:38 pm
by Jason Paul
Hi All,
I've sharpened a handful of knives on the sharpmaker, and they come out great for the most part. Up to now, I've been using the 40-degree slots almost exclusively - no real issues.
A week or two ago I asked here about using the 30-degree or 40-degree slots, and I went away thinking I'd like to start using the 30-degree slots now; sometimes using a 40-degree microbevel.
With that, I thought I might end up "reprofiling" some of these to 30-degrees, so I started using the marker trick to mark the edges to help.
First up was the Manix 2 LW. The marker came off pretty evenly on both sides. No issues, and it all seems fine.
Second though, was the Manix 2 G-10, and I have a question. One side seemed dead-on the 15dps setting. The rod took the full marker line off; I could "feel" the marker being removed. I'm guessing this means the factory edge is right at 15dps on that side.
However, the other side is not removing any marker at all. I used the marker a bit higher up, and it seems the rod is hitting right at the top of the bevel (shoulder?). So, the rod is currently missing the factory edge bevel, hitting right at the top of it.
So - I have a couple of questions about this.
Do I just keep keep grinding away like this, reprofiling that side to match the angle of my Sharpmaker? I'm assuming so, right? So future sharpenings will match my Sharpmaker?
I don't try to prop my Sharpmaker to try to match the factory edge, correct?
Also - if I'm supposed to just keep grinding away; do I still try to keep the number of strokes per side even/equal? Or, do I plan on working that side much more in order to get it down to where I'm working the actual edge? That would make more sense.
Another thing that's confusing me is that the bevel currently looks the same on both sides. I measured, and both sides look to be right at 1mm. So, if I "reprofile" this to match the angle of my Sharpmaker, will I make the sides uneven?
Thanks,
Jason
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:41 pm
by vivi
Jason Paul wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:38 pm
Hi All,
I've sharpened a handful of knives on the sharpmaker, and they come out great for the most part. Up to now, I've been using the 40-degree slots almost exclusively - no real issues.
A week or two ago I asked here about using the 30-degree or 40-degree slots, and I went away thinking I'd like to start using the 30-degree slots now; sometimes using a 40-degree microbevel.
With that, I thought I might end up "reprofiling" some of these to 30-degrees, so I started using the marker trick to mark the edges to help.
First up was the Manix 2 LW. The marker came off pretty evenly on both sides. No issues, and it all seems fine.
Second though, was the Manix 2 G-10, and I have a question. One side seemed dead-on the 15dps setting. The rod took the full marker line off; I could "feel" the marker being removed. I'm guessing this means the factory edge is right at 15dps on that side.
However, the other side is not removing any marker at all. I used the marker a bit higher up, and it seems the rod is hitting right at the top of the bevel (shoulder?). So, the rod is currently missing the factory edge bevel, hitting right at the top of it.
So - I have a couple of questions about this.
Do I just keep keep grinding away like this, reprofiling that side to match the angle of my Sharpmaker? I'm assuming so, right? So future sharpenings will match my Sharpmaker?
I don't try to prop my Sharpmaker to try to match the factory edge, correct?
Also - if I'm supposed to just keep grinding away; do I still try to keep the number of strokes per side even/equal? Or, do I plan on working that side much more in order to get it down to where I'm working the actual edge? That would make more sense.
Another thing that's confusing me is that the bevel currently looks the same on both sides. I measured, and both sides look to be right at 1mm. So, if I "reprofile" this to match the angle of my Sharpmaker, will I make the sides uneven?
Thanks,
Jason
1. Yes, keep grinding the side that isn't 15 degrees until it matches the side that is.
2. No need to prop the SM if you're trying to hit 15 degrees. That is for trying to hit thinner or thicker angles than the SM offers.
3. Keeping the strokes even is when you're working the apex. When you're grinding away steel behind the edge do not worry about this whatsoever.
4. Yes, your bevels may end up looking uneven. Not every blade is ground 100% perfectly - that's simply the nature of production tools.
Your knife will cut better in the end, which, in my opinion, is the most important thing:)
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:49 pm
by TkoK83Spy
What Sharpmaker rods are you using? If you're going to try and make both sides equal at 15 degrees and only have the brown rods as your most coarse grit...that will take you a LONG TIME. You may need to invest in the CBN or Diamond Sharpmaker rods for actual reprofile work. They will cut much more aggressively and save you a ton of time.
It's best if you reprofile each side individually to the point where you can feel a burr. Once you get a burr, switch to the other side and do the same until you no longer have a burr and have cleaned the apex (this is why I suggested a coarser stone so it can be done much quicker) Normally when I used my Sharpmaker to reprofile, once I was able to scrape shave arm hair, I'd begin to do very light, alternating passes on each side of the blade.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:55 pm
by Wartstein
- You can of course work only on the side where you don´t hit the very bevel yet till you´re there. You can´t produce a burr on the other side before that anyway. You even don´t have to use only down strokes, but can go up and down or use circular motions as long as you are in the process of reprofiling one side. Forum member Surfgringo / Lance Clinton has a vid that shows that very well (start at roughly 2:00)
https://youtu.be/DI8lTj-F8gA
Then, when you really hit the bevel on both side, you can go back to alternating strokes.
- While reprofling CBN or diamond stones are nice to have
- A lupe helps me personally a lot additionally to the marker
- Yes, I´d reprofile till both sides hit (in my case) the 15 degrees of the SM
- Don´t get confused if both sides LOOK the same. As long as you hold the blade more or less perpendicular while sharpening, I´d go by the results the marker-removing shows...
EDIT: Rick (who knows more about sharpening than I do anyway) beat me to much I said while I was typing...EDIT 2... and Vivi, as I realized right now
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:14 pm
by TkoK83Spy
Also great added points by Wartstein. Saves a lot of time keeping your blade right on the stone. Tip to heel, heel to tip. I too have had great success doing that and also adding small circular motions at the same time. A little practice and muscle memory will kick in for ya.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:32 pm
by Cambertree
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned, Jason is when you use the Sharpmaker, one side will usually actually be canted a degree or two off vertical - or more.
This is due to the natural asymmetry of the dominant human hand.
You can set up a mirror or have someone stand in front of you while you are sharpening to check this. You can also hang a white or coloured thread from the ceiling like a plumbline to use as a vertical background point.
It’s not so noticeable when doing touch up sharpening, but ‘angle slop’ will be magnified when using many passes for reprofiling.
This is one reason why coarse benchstones are better for this kind of reprofiling.
Also, you might want to check your table or base you set the Sharpmaker on is actually level too.
I’ve sharpened quite a few knives on the Sharpmaker. Even so, I was showing someone how to use it the other day, and she observed that one of my approach sides was slightly off vertical as I sharpened.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 pm
by sal
Hi Jason,
As Warstein suggested, using a good quality loupe changes everything. 10X-12X works well, It lets you SEE what you are doing while you are doing it.
sal
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:26 pm
by mikey177
Thank you, Cambertree, for the tip about using a mirror to check my approach angles and the insight about hand assymmetry.
I think this may be why the sharpening response sometimes feels different on one side compared with the other when I use the SharpMaker.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:30 pm
by TkoK83Spy
mikey177 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:26 pm
Thank you, Cambertree, for the tip about using a mirror to check my approach angles and the insight about hand assymmetry.
I think this may be why the sharpening response sometimes feels different on one side compared with the other when I use the SharpMaker.
I second that. I'm going to do the same when I touch up my 52100 Manix tomorrow night. I normally do so free hand with the rods, but maybe this is why I've struggled all along using the Sharpmaker base?? Not that I would go back to it because it feels like training wheels vs going freehand, but I'm definitely curious now!
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:49 pm
by vivi
You can definitely tell whether you're hitting the apex or backbevel by feel after some experience.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:54 pm
by TkoK83Spy
vivi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:49 pm
You can definitely tell whether you're hitting the apex or backbevel by feel after some experience.
Absolutely. Once you feel that slight bite, you know you've got that sweet spot with the apex. I like these threads because it brings me back a few years, when I had these same types of questions and yourself and a few others were extremely helpful to me. It's a good feeling to pass on the experiences and knowledge to others, especially after knowing how difficult and frustrating it can be when first starting out.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:20 pm
by vivi
TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:54 pm
vivi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:49 pm
You can definitely tell whether you're hitting the apex or backbevel by feel after some experience.
Absolutely. Once you feel that slight bite, you know you've got that sweet spot with the apex. I like these threads because it brings me back a few years, when I had these same types of questions and yourself and a few others were extremely helpful to me. It's a good feeling to pass on the experiences and knowledge to others, especially after knowing how difficult and frustrating it can be when first starting out.
Man when I bought my first Spyderco, the first time I tried sharpening it all I did was make it more dull swiping it across my kitchen steel. Everyone has to learn at some point.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:41 pm
by sal
Hi Vivi,
I think the learning thing just goes on and on. At least it does for me.
sal
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:15 pm
by vivi
sal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Hi Vivi,
I think the learning thing just goes on and on. At least it does for me.
sal
Wise words Sal. I've re-learned everything I know after 20+ years of sharpening these past 2 or 3 years.
If you're not willing to change and adapt, you're willing to be left behind.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:07 pm
by Bill1170
vivi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:15 pm
sal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Hi Vivi,
I think the learning thing just goes on and on. At least it does for me.
sal
Wise words Sal. I've re-learned everything I know after 20+ years of sharpening these past 2 or 3 years.
If you're not willing to change and adapt, you're willing to be left behind.
As the great Bob Dylan said, "He who is not busy being born is busy dying."
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:43 am
by Pokey
Jason Paul wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:38 pm
Second though, was the Manix 2 G-10, and I have a question. One side seemed dead-on the 15dps setting. The rod took the full marker line off;
I could "feel" the marker being removed. I'm guessing this means the factory edge is right at 15dps on that side.
Another thing that's confusing me is that the bevel currently looks the same on both sides. I measured, and both sides look to be right at 1mm. So, if I "reprofile" this to match the angle of my Sharpmaker,
will I make the sides uneven?
Thanks,
Jason
When you felt the marker coming off was it a dragging, gummy feel? I've noticed when that happens I'm matching the angle of the bevel.
I've found that when the bevel on the two sides aren't even, and I try to even them up, ultimately, the bevel will look wider, or taller, (depending on how you hold the blade,) on one side than the other. As Vivi said, it's the nature of the beast.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:16 am
by bearfacedkiller
Bill1170 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:07 pm
vivi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:15 pm
sal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Hi Vivi,
I think the learning thing just goes on and on. At least it does for me.
sal
Wise words Sal. I've re-learned everything I know after 20+ years of sharpening these past 2 or 3 years.
If you're not willing to change and adapt, you're willing to be left behind.
As the great Bob Dylan said, "He who is not busy being born is busy dying."
I like to say that if you are not moving forwards then you are moving backwards.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:20 am
by bearfacedkiller
It could be you as much as the knife or sharpener. Quite often when one blames equipment it is intact operator error. I am guilty of that at times.
Some people like to try to stand a little further back to get a perspective on how vertical they are. I prefer to use a lower surface and stand more over the sharpener than behind it. My kitchen table is lower than my kitchen counters and I find that I maintain vertical better on the table. That could just be my muscle memory though.
I would use the sharpie to tell you when you are hitting the bevel and then try to use some temporary muscle memory to maintain that angle.
Re: Using a marker when sharpening (Sharpmaker)
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:23 am
by Jason Paul
Thanks for the replies - very helpful as usual.
I do plan to get a loupe and the CBN rods before too long. I'm currently using the medium rods; specifically the corners right now for the Manix. I've seen that video by Lance about keeping the blade on the stone for both up/down strokes, and moving in the circular motion. I've been doing the up/down thing, not so much the circular.
@Pokey - yes, it was a draggy, gummy feeling; so I assumed that meant I was right on the bevel for that side. The other side is hitting higher than the bevel, so I guess that side may end up with a larger bevel. But as you guys are saying, it is what it is.
As for getting the angle right - I'm basically doing what bearfacedkiller says. I've been using a surface that's fairly low, so I'm able to stand over the sharpmaker and look down over the knife. I think this makes it easier to keep the angle right, but of course it's still probably not exactly perpendicular. In addition, I'm the one who posted a little while back about my sharpmaker's angles being 1-2 degrees off.
Thanks again!
Jason