Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

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Pokey
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Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Pokey » Fri May 22, 2020 1:27 pm

Has anyone else ever seen this happen?

I've driven from Colorado (CO) to California (CA), then back. When I last left CO I had the blade opening friction adjusted on my Para 3's set the way I like them. When I got to CA two days later the blades had a lot more drag. The first thing I did was to make sure the steel was lubricated. It hadn't changed in two days, so I tweaked them up a bit. In the two weeks I was in CA there was no change in the friction. I drove back to CO and two days later I had to tune them up a bit again.

I could see a big change in the temperature making a difference, but the temperature in CO and CA was nearly the same. Some knives will change by taking them out of my warm pocket, using them for a bit, then once they cool off the action is different. Thermal expansion on all the different materials in the knife and the lube will make a difference.

I'm wondering if a change in altitude is what does it. I live at about 5,400 ft, (1646 m), drive up and over the Continental Divide at 11,000+ ft, (3,383 m), and stay at about 3000 ft, (914 m), in CA. Then coming back the whole process is reversed with the same result.

Any thoughts?

Bill

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby VooDooChild » Fri May 22, 2020 1:32 pm

Youre cursed.

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Pokey » Fri May 22, 2020 2:13 pm

VooDooChild wrote:Youre cursed.
Well, yeah, but I meant for reasons other than that. :D

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Wartstein
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Wartstein » Fri May 22, 2020 2:21 pm

Interesting... and weird

I live at about just 430 m (= 1410 feet), but very frequently hike or run or climb (or partly drive) up to between 1500 and 3700 meters (= 4920 to 12140 feet). Climate can change a lot either concerning humidity and so on

Never experienced what you describe! Could be of course that I just pay less attention or don´t have your keen senses...

Generally and theoretically a change in altitude and by that in air pressure certainly can have an impact on "stuff". Water boils at lower temps, liquids expand more (which can even lead to problems if one has lets say an inflammation in the jaw, not noticed at low altitude, but painfull at high altitude) and so on

So maybe, just maybe, materials alter their dimensions a tiny bit in different altitudes and if items are built with very close tolerances, that could possibly have an impact?
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby JuPaul » Fri May 22, 2020 2:26 pm

How about changes in humidity? I used to drive from CO to Missouri a lot, and definitely noticed all kinds of wierd stuff happening once the midwest humidity hit. And going back to CO, I could practically feel the moisture being sucked from my body. Could be affecting expansion/contraction of the scale materials around the pivot, maybe?

Or maybe the constant vibration on the long drive?
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Mike Blue » Fri May 22, 2020 3:15 pm

Hygroscopic lubricant? You have the tools to adjust the action to your satisfaction at both ends and the middle. You can't be any better prepared for the trip with your knife(s) than that.

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Pokey » Fri May 22, 2020 5:46 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:21 pm
Interesting... and weird

I live at about just 430 m (= 1410 feet), but very frequently hike or run or climb (or partly drive) up to between 1500 and 3700 meters (= 4920 to 12140 feet). Climate can change a lot either concerning humidity and so on

Never experienced what you describe! Could be of course that I just pay less attention or don´t have your keen senses...

Generally and theoretically a change in altitude and by that in air pressure certainly can have an impact on "stuff". Water boils at lower temps, liquids expand more (which can even lead to problems if one has lets say an inflammation in the jaw, not noticed at low altitude, but painfull at high altitude) and so on

So maybe, just maybe, materials alter their dimensions a tiny bit in different altitudes and if items are built with very close tolerances, that could possibly have an impact?
Yes, I agree a drop in air pressure can make a difference. In addition to what you said, changes in humidity, ear drums, and sealed bags of potato chips can take place!

I wonder if Larrin Thomas, PhD might chime in about the different materials. The Para 3's I took along have G10 scales. I would think they're all inert, though.

To answer Mike Blue's question, I use Break Free CLP so I don't know if it's hydroscopic.

I know that the friction increased on the blades when I went to CA, but don't remember if after adjusting them there it increased or decreased when I got back to CO.

Hmmm.

Bill

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby JacksonKnives » Sat May 23, 2020 12:45 am

You need to eliminate some variables for us.
Which force/part of travel are you noticing this for? Opening? Free-swinging with no lock pressure? Travel with lock pressing against tang?
Which lock type?
Did you notice a change in blade play?

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby sv4 » Sat May 23, 2020 3:17 am

I live in an Equatorial climate. Inside a cool, internal air conditioned environment, my Para 3 lightweight blade drops shut perfectly all the way back into the handles. Outside in the heat & humidity, there is definitely more friction, the blade no longer drops shut all the way. So there definitely is a difference.

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Doc Dan » Sat May 23, 2020 4:54 am

I think it likely that after initial use, as the lube was spread out, that gunk from manufacturing got into the pivot area and started dragging the blade. Perhaps a good cleaning? Or, it could be that the pivot has no locktite and it worked itself tight over time and use (I have had this happen with BM's, some loose, some tighter).
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Evil D
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Evil D » Sat May 23, 2020 7:22 am

I've heard of a pivot getting looser with use but not tighter, at least not in such a short period of time. I'm inclined to say you've just lost your mind and need therapy and a strong medication?

🤷‍♂️



Ok let's be serious and break this down. Do you take your knives apart? If so, do you also use a thread locker when you put them back together? On my Caribbeans I have polished the blade tangs and if I don't reassemble them with the washers on the right side and even flipped in the right direction it will effect pivot action, but this is felt immediately after I put the knife back together and not 2 days later.


I don't think you're seeing a drastic enough change in temp to expand the metals enough to change the tolerances...for starters the tolerances just aren't that precise, even if you went from 120+ degrees in the Mojave desert to -50 degrees in Antarctica, I don't think the tolerances are tight enough to see a difference and you said yourself you really didn't move from one climate to a drastically different one. If pocket warmth was enough then we would all experience this (ok I'm really leaning towards the "you're crazy" hypothesis).

I'm thinking there's either a perception thing going on, you've reassembled them wrong, you have crud in the pivot, or I guess you're just psycho and need electroshock therapy. You maybe shouldn't be around sharp instruments to begin with ;)
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Doc Dan » Sat May 23, 2020 7:46 am

Evil D wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:22 am
I've heard of a pivot getting looser with use but not tighter, at least not in such a short period of time. I'm inclined to say you've just lost your mind and need therapy and a strong medication?

🤷‍♂️



My wife has been telling me that for years! Hahahaha! :D


I do agree with crud in the pivot.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)

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sal
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby sal » Sat May 23, 2020 9:26 am

We've found that humidity makes a big difference,

sal

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby James Y » Sat May 23, 2020 11:03 am

I’ve had that experience with knives. Varying levels of humidity seem to affect some of my knives more than others. In my Spydercos, I’ve had that happen with some (not all) of my compression locks and back locks mostly. I’ve experienced it even more significantly with some Benchmade axis locks, and a couple of my CRK knives (frame locks) as well.

Jim

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Bill1170 » Sat May 23, 2020 10:33 pm

I lived in CO for 22years, then moved to coastal SOCAL in 2000. It has to be the humidity difference. It affects everything that moves or spoils. When my wife and I visit CO now, we get nosebleeds. We aren’t adapted like we were back when we lived there.

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Wartstein
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Wartstein » Sat May 23, 2020 10:47 pm

Bill1170 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:33 pm
I lived in CO for 22years, then moved to coastal SOCAL in 2000. It has to be the humidity difference. It affects everything that moves or spoils. When my wife and I visit CO now, we get nosebleeds. We aren’t adapted like we were back when we lived there.
Nose bleed certainly sounds a lot more like due to changes in altitude than in humidity to me...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Wartstein » Sat May 23, 2020 10:52 pm

sal wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:26 am
We've found that humidity makes a big difference,

sal
James Y wrote: I’ve had that experience with knives. Varying levels of humidity seem to affect some of my knives more than others. In my Spydercos, I’ve had that happen with some (not all) of my compression locks and back locks mostly. I’ve experienced it even more significantly with some Benchmade axis locks, and a couple of my CRK knives (frame locks) as well.

Jim
Interesting! Even more so, since changes in humidity are much more likely to being experienced for most people than real changes in altitude (lets say going from a dry office-climate to a hike in a forest on a rainy day).

In my life both (changes in humidity and altitude) happen a lot, but I never experienced changes in how my folders behave. And the vast majority are Spyderco backlocks.
But again, maybe I just did not pay attention or my senses are not keen enough.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby prndltech » Sat May 23, 2020 10:53 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 1:32 pm
Youre cursed.
Aahahahaha

That was great
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Pokey
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Pokey » Sat May 23, 2020 11:29 pm

sal wrote: We've found that humidity makes a big difference,

sal
I'm going to test that theory, Sal. I'm out east in Thornton and as you know we've had dry, windy weather lately. Tomorrow we're having T-storms with rain. I'm going to take the Para 3's out of the relatively dry safe and see if something changes in the next couple of days.
Doc Dan wrote: I think it likely that after initial use, as the lube was spread out, that gunk from manufacturing got into the pivot area and started dragging the blade. Perhaps a good cleaning? Or, it could be that the pivot has no locktite and it worked itself tight over time and use (I have had this happen with BM's, some loose, some tighter).
The thing was Dan they were tuned up just fine prior to leaving for CA. When I did re-tune them the pivot screws were still snug enough to stay put. I know what you mean about the BM's. I've got some I've tried to adjust and when you get them where you like the action the screw is just on the hairy edge of breaking free.
Evil D wrote: Ok let's be serious and break this down. Do you take your knives apart? If so, do you also use a thread locker when you put them back together? On my Caribbeans I have polished the blade tangs and if I don't reassemble them with the washers on the right side and even flipped in the right direction it will effect pivot action, but this is felt immediately after I put the knife back together and not 2 days later.
Nope, I've never taken these apart. I have noticed that over a long period of time here at home the action may need a tweak, but this was pretty sudden.
JacksonKnives wrote: You need to eliminate some variables for us.
Which force/part of travel are you noticing this for? Opening? Free-swinging with no lock pressure? Travel with lock pressing against tang?
Which lock type?
Did you notice a change in blade play?
Yes, instead of free-swinging when closing these would come to a stop with the same amount of body english applied, and I had to apply a little more force to flick the blades open. So, free swinging and with lock pressure. No additional wobble in the blade, though.

Bill

Pokey
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Re: Force To Open/Close A Blade Changes

Postby Pokey » Wed May 27, 2020 11:04 am

Well, after a few days where the weather has gone from warm and dry to cool and rainy, then back again, there’s no real change in the Para 3’s.
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