Spyderco Forums

I'm seeing the new shaman in the reaveal with Z-wear PM steel. In Larrin's article Z-max steel is the in the upper tier. Could someone help me understand the difference between z-wear and z-max?
thanks

From what I hear, Z-Wear is akin to CPM Cru-Wear. (Others will be along with much greater insight.)

Z-max is completely different from Z-wear/Cruwear.

Z-max is roughly similar to Maxamet in composition.

Z-Wear is very similar to CruWear. Z-Max is a high carbide tool steel in the same class as Maxamet, 15V, etc.

Here's the compositions with some others as well

Z-Wear
Carbon: 1.15
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.60
Tungsten: 1.00
Vanadium: 2.40

CPM Cru-wear
Carbon: 1.15
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.60
Tungsten: 1.15
Vanadium: 2.40

CPM-3V
Carbon: 0.80
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.30
Vanadium: 2.75

CPM-4V
Carbon: 1.35
Chromium: 5.00
Manganese: 0.40
Molybdenum: 2.95
Silicon: 0.80
Vanadium: 3.85

Z-Max
Carbon: 2.00
Chromium: 4.00
Vanadium: 5.00
Molybdenum: 5.00
Tungsten: 10.00
Cobalt: 9.00

Maxamet
Carbon: 2.15
Chromium: 4.75
Cobalt: 10
Manganese: 0.30
Sillicon: 0.25
Sulfur: 0.07
Tungsten: 13.00
Vanadium: 6.00

Great feedback, thanks all. Is Z-wear noticeably different from PD#1?

Micromelt PD#1

Carbon: 1.10
Chromium: 7.75
Manganese: 0.25
Molybdenum: 1.60
Silicon: 1.20
Tungsten: 1.10
Vanadium: 2.35

On Knifesteelnerds.com Larrin has an article about the history of these steels

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/03/ ... uff-steel/

For me the question is: what's the difference between Z-Wear and CPM Cru-wear?

Compositionally they're almost identical. Almost... what does that 0.15 percent difference in Tungsten do?

Even if the two steels were exactly identical, they're each produced by different companies.

If you were to cook two of the same thing, using the same ingredients, but different brands of ingredients, typically you'd expect the results to taste different. So M390 versus CTS-204P for example or 10V vs A11 as another. They're the same... kind of.

Beyond that, subtle variations in cook temp/time has noticable diferences in the result, such as with a heat treat/tempur... those differences can further be amplified with subtle variations in the ingredients... such as 0.15 Tungsten.

All of this becomes more interesting when my own wishful thinking causes me to hope that the result will mean that Z-Wear will land at a higher Rockwell hardness than CPM Cru-wear. But then could it cause it to run softer?

I don’t know why the datasheet lists that small difference in tungsten. Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.

Ok, 8th grade algebra was traumatic for me. My understanding of the transitive property brings up issues. What I am understanding is Z-wear+PD#1=CPMCruwear. Z-max=Maxamet.

Skidoosh wrote: ↑

Wed May 06, 2020 6:11 pm

Ok, 8th grade algebra was traumatic for me. My understanding of the transitive property brings up issues. What I am understanding is Z-wear+PD#1=CPMCruwear. Z-max=Maxamet.

You’ve got the right idea

Z-wear = CPM Cru-wear

PD#1 ≈ CPM Cru-wear

Z-max has less C, Cr, Co, W, and V than Maxamet.
Z-max also has 5% Mo while Maxamet has none. They’ll be similar, but Maxamet may edge Z-Max out in the raw wear resistance category.

Yes we are making a category equivalence between Z-Max and Maxamet not saying they are identical. Can’t help with all the same names for the same steel though.

Thanks Larrin! This gets me a lot more excited about that Shaman sprint!

This is another great Spyderco move. So many complaints about the CruCarta, and Sal comes through with another version for us. :)

Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.

I really didn't know this and I have done a bunch of reading about Z wear on Zapp sites and even bought some Z wear sheets though I don't recall from whom. I knew it was a good steel though, as is PD#1. I used to have some old ingot Vascowear or Cruwear laying around though I don't know where it went. I liked that before they made CPM Cruwear. I first ran into Vascowear on a Gerber Sportsman 2 back when even D2 was still rare and exotic in production cutlery. :)

Joe

The Mastiff wrote: ↑

Thu May 07, 2020 4:48 am

Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.

I really didn't know this and I have done a bunch of reading about Z wear on Zapp sites and even bought some Z wear sheets though I don't recall from whom. I knew it was a good steel though, as is PD#1. I used to have some old ingot Vascowear or Cruwear laying around though I don't know where it went. I liked that before they made CPM Cruwear. I first ran into Vascowear on a Gerber Sportsman 2 back when even D2 was still rare and exotic in production cutlery. :)

Joe

Crucible even shows this publicly in the 3V datasheet where it is listed as "CPM CruWear/Z-Wear." http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... 202015.pdf

I think you can still buy ingot CruWear though it isn't sold directly to knifemakers often. Vascowear was an underrated steel in its day for sure.

Larrin wrote: ↑

Wed May 06, 2020 5:49 pm

I don’t know why the datasheet lists that small difference in tungsten. Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.

Thats really good info. I was starting to feel as if I was chasing my tail in circles trying to figure out the difference.

Larrin wrote: ↑

Wed May 06, 2020 5:49 pm

I don’t know why the datasheet lists that small difference in tungsten. Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.

This needs to be a sticky once the Z-wear is released to save us from the 20+ threads that will surely come, asking how it compares to Cruwear.

TomAiello wrote: ↑

Wed May 06, 2020 9:48 pm

This is another great Spyderco move. So many complaints about the CruCarta, and Sal comes through with another version for us. :)

Yes, really cool!! Technically the "same" knife, but still.. not. So another sprint is possible without violating the "rules" for sprint runs..

And if they´ll really produce a greater number this time, many who want to experience the properties of this model in use will get one finally, while true collectors still have their rare, "real cruwear" model of the original Crucarta sprint run...

Clever!

Poor me, not, but the reality is that I have a few months left so is it possible to preorder this so if I don't make production one goes to my son as a practical memento?