Micro Serrations

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JD Spydo
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm

sal wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:43 pm
Hi Alnico,

Welcome to our forum.

The question of micro serration has been a discussion for the the past 50 years that I have been in the knife industry. Some say they don't exist and some say they do.

This should be an interesting discussion.

sal
This is an interesting subject to me because I had a guy that I was taking CNC classes from and he told me about 20 years ago that there was no such a thing as a true plain edged knife blade. He said that no matter how well honed they are they all still have "micro serrations". Even though you would need a microscope to see them I believe the guy was right.

Although I've taken a Spyderco Ultra-Fine stone and really put a super smooth edge on several knives and when you run them over your thumbnail you sure can't detect any bumps or irregularities. Also I've gotten straight razors really well honed on a super fine stone and have had the same results. And over the years I've heard a lot of guys make reference to what they call a "Toothy Edge". Which I think is what the OP is alluding to.

I'm curious as to what your take is Mr. Glesser :)

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Jazz
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Jazz » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:42 pm

You gotta love this thread. I love a polished SE, and microserrations on my plain edges.
- best wishes, Jazz.

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sal
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:15 pm

Hi JD,

I've always thought there were micro serrations. Both logical and physical.

sal

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Wartstein
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Wartstein » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm
sal wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:43 pm
This is an interesting subject to me because I had a guy that I was taking CNC classes from and he told me about 20 years ago that there was no such a thing as a true plain edged knife blade. He said that no matter how well honed they are they all still have "micro serrations". Even though you would need a microscope to see them I believe the guy was right.

.....

As a guy who has really just basic sharpening skills and - knowledge I am a bit confused tbh:

If there is a debate about if micro serrations actually do exist or not, then why not actually just TAKE a microscope and check?! Can´t imagine they are too small to be seen there?
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Evil D
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:28 am

Wartstein wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm
sal wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:43 pm
This is an interesting subject to me because I had a guy that I was taking CNC classes from and he told me about 20 years ago that there was no such a thing as a true plain edged knife blade. He said that no matter how well honed they are they all still have "micro serrations". Even though you would need a microscope to see them I believe the guy was right.

.....

As a guy who has really just basic sharpening skills and - knowledge I am a bit confused tbh:

If there is a debate about if micro serrations actually do exist or not, then why not actually just TAKE a microscope and check?! Can´t imagine they are too small to be seen there?


It has already been done. This was the first site that came up in a search for "microscope pics of a knife edge", it has lots of pics.

https://www.hertzmann.com/articles/2013/edges/
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Wartstein
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Wartstein » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:32 am

Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:28 am
Wartstein wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm
sal wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:43 pm
As a guy who has really just basic sharpening skills and - knowledge I am a bit confused tbh:

If there is a debate about if micro serrations actually do exist or not, then why not actually just TAKE a microscope and check?! Can´t imagine they are too small to be seen there?


It has already been done. This was the first site that came up in a search for "microscope pics of a knife edge", it has lots of pics.

https://www.hertzmann.com/articles/2013/edges/

Thanks David! Had a quick look just at the pics, did not read the text yet. But still: Now I wonder why there is even a deabate about if micro serrations do exist or not, seems to be pretty obvious judging from that images... ?!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Evil D
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:41 am

Wartstein wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:32 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:28 am
Wartstein wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm

As a guy who has really just basic sharpening skills and - knowledge I am a bit confused tbh:

If there is a debate about if micro serrations actually do exist or not, then why not actually just TAKE a microscope and check?! Can´t imagine they are too small to be seen there?


It has already been done. This was the first site that came up in a search for "microscope pics of a knife edge", it has lots of pics.

https://www.hertzmann.com/articles/2013/edges/

Thanks David! Had a quick look just at the pics, did not read the text yet. But still: Now I wonder why there is even a deabate about if micro serrations do exist or not, seems to be pretty obvious judging from that images... ?!

Yeah I don't get it either. Must be one of those big brain things that's just over my head.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Jazz
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Jazz » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:49 am

Wartstein wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 am
As a guy who has really just basic sharpening skills and - knowledge I am a bit confused tbh:

If there is a debate about if micro serrations actually do exist or not, then why not actually just TAKE a microscope and check?! Can´t imagine they are too small to be seen there?

The lines scratched in the blade from the stones and strops, however small, make grooves (micro serrations).
- best wishes, Jazz.

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alnico357
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby alnico357 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:42 am

Magnify any edge enough and it is no longer smooth. For the slicing I do 99% of the time with my Delica, I think a "rough edge" works better. I hesitate to buy a serrated knife due to sharpening considerations.

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sal
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby sal » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:54 am

The "Scratch pattern' is the reult of what strokes are ued to sharpen the eddge. If you sharpen in a circular motion, the "Micro serrations" will be less obvious.

Hi Almic,

Serrations are pretty easy on a Sharpmaker and will actually be improved by the sharpening.

sal

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alnico357
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby alnico357 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:05 am

sal wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:54 am
Hi Almic,

Serrations are pretty easy on a Sharpmaker and will actually be improved by the sharpening. sal
I am considering a serrated Delica or Salt 1!

James Y
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby James Y » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:06 am

No blade edge, no matter how smooth it may appear, is without some type of micro-serrations. Obviously, nothing is perfectly smooth or perfectly straight at the micro level. You can also feel it in the “grabbiness” of a properly sharpened edge.

Jim

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alnico357
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby alnico357 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am

It seems like the FFG plain rules the day since the Delica serrated only comes with black scales.

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Evil D
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:21 am

alnico357 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:42 am
I hesitate to buy a serrated knife due to sharpening considerations.

If you have a Sharpmaker you're good to go. Do a couple searches, there are a couple recent threads talking all about sharpening them. SE is all I carry now.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Jazz
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Jazz » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:26 am

Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:21 am
alnico357 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:42 am
I hesitate to buy a serrated knife due to sharpening considerations.

If you have a Sharpmaker you're good to go. Do a couple searches, there are a couple recent threads talking all about sharpening them. SE is all I carry now.

I'm in the same boat as Dave, here, except I like PE and SE. Once we realized how easy the serrated edge is to sharpen, and that they work better nice and sharp, we completely changed our minds about them.
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Wartstein
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Wartstein » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:35 am

alnico357 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am
It seems like the FFG plain rules the day since the Delica serrated only comes with black scales.

The serrated Delica also only comes in sabre grind (exept the Wharnie).. for "normal" EDC tasks the current serrations Spyderco does on ffg blades (like the Endela) work even better,
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Evil D
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:56 am

Jazz wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:26 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:21 am
alnico357 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:42 am
I hesitate to buy a serrated knife due to sharpening considerations.

If you have a Sharpmaker you're good to go. Do a couple searches, there are a couple recent threads talking all about sharpening them. SE is all I carry now.

I'm in the same boat as Dave, here, except I like PE and SE. Once we realized how easy the serrated edge is to sharpen, and that they work better nice and sharp, we completely changed our minds about them.


Oh I definitely still have and use PE, but mostly because of the specific models I have that I really like but aren't available in SE (Cruwear Shaman, Sliverax). For work days I literally don't even carry PE anymore unless you count my multitool blade.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby GarageBoy » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:35 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:26 am
There is talk from Spyderco about a galvanic bonded "COATED" CBN benchstone that should be interesting for those that want to play with "microserrated" edges

Much like the DMT stone, the abrasive grains are more exposed allowing them to cut deeper into the bevel and make a more aggressive finish.

They'll have to be used with a lighter touch to keep the grains from tearing out of the bond and it's just a single layer of abrasive but it should be interesting for us edge junkies to play with more CBN in that format.
What's the bonding type on the current cbn rods?

Baron Mind
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Baron Mind » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:49 pm

I'd say microserrations do not exist in the form most people imagine them to. 14 micron abrasives do not create 14 micron teeth, or 14 micron tooth spacing. The abrasives appear to microchip the apex and scratch into the edge bevel, but not at a size equal to the abrasive size. The abrasive does not fully penetrate the steel, only the peaks of the particle, depending on how much pressure is used.

I do think edge finish has real tangible effects on apex characteristics and performance, but they are a lot more complicated than initially thought, and are yet to be fully understood.

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Stuart Ackerman
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Stuart Ackerman » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:53 pm

Still searching for my scope.

When I first got the scope, I took an old razor, sharpening it to 2000 grit, and then a light stropping with leather and Dialux blue.
Looked at a few places along the edge at 250x, I could see a faint scratch pattern, I think?

I shaved with it, stropped it, and then cut 1/2 inch hemp cord/rope, just once, ricasso to tip.

I looked at the edge again, and there where little chunks missing, about 20 in about 3mm.

With a slicing motion, the edge tore typing paper, but would slice a tomato cleanly enough.

So, looks like carbides or such-like were being knocked out by the abuse?

Thereby "creating" teeth? Micro serrations?

What thinkest thou?


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