Community Sharpening Journal

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Spyderco Fine


Spyderco Ultra Fine


I thought this was very interesting,
The difference in abrasive size is basically the same.
Both the Ultra Fine and the fine both have larger ~15μm abrasive grains with smaller 5-10μm abrasive particles in between.

However, the ultra fine has a higher volume of 5-10μm abrasives, it is a denser stone and has a smoother surface RA texture on its surface.

It would be curious to quantitatively evaluate the scratch pattern between the fine and ultra fine and measure the BESS sharpeness between them.

What is meant by RA surface exactly? I recall hearing Sal state at some point that the fine/ultra-fine is the exact same stone but one gets surface finished to a fine surface. Are you actually saying that these are in fact two distinct stones and not merely surface grinding one to ultra fine finish? Is it not possible that the surface finish could simply be changing how your microscope resolves the image to where you actually see more of the finer abrasives on the ultra-fine stone?

[ekastanis]

What is meant by RA surface exactly? I recall hearing Sal state at some point that the fine/ultra-fine is the exact same stone but one gets surface finished to a fine surface.

Ra is one of a number of metrics to quantify surface roughness, as defined in ISO 21920. Essentially it is the average of the absolute values of the surface profile heights over an evaluation length.

This is a nice summary:
https://www.mitutoyo.com/webfoo/wp-cont ... ess_PG.pdf

Surface finishing of the fine stone to ultra fine would certainly reduce Ra.

[Guts]

You're totally right about diamond plates leaving deeper scratches, I should've mentioned that. Diamond plates are definitely my go to if i want a toothy edge, however I love the CGSW resin bonded stones! Made in USA too. They almost feel like using water stones since the resin is a bit firmer compared to say, the Venev resin bonded stones, which were my previous favorites.

Anyway, I suppose I didn't mention it because the resin bonded stuff gets pretty pricy depending on which size you get, whereas you can still get a very nice edge off of diamond plates plus some Diamond emulsion or paste, for not a lot of money. They're probably more forgiving too compared to resin bonded as it's easy to cut into the resin if you're not careful with your angle. That said, resin bonded stones are my favorite type to sharpen on. I'd love to try metal bonded stones but no one seems to make full size bench stone versions, only the 6x1's from what I've found.

I forgot to mention those stones were pricey! Meant to do that when I mentioned how long they last and totally forgot! Which size CGSW do you have and what grits? I’ve got the original series or grits he did for EP, but I picked up the 450 and 950 when those came out. I’m trying to crack freehand sharpening, using a King Neo 800, but so far it’s getting the better of me. I thought freehand stropping would help me develop the feel; not so much it turns out! Gonna have to buy some cheap Kiwi’s to practice on.

I'm not sure which grit ratings they are since they were listed by micron when I bought them on gritomatic, but I have the 80-40-10-5 micron in the 8x3" size. Once I got better at freehanding, I just bought a stone here and there since they are so pricy. If I could buy them again, I think I might have gone 80-20-5, though I really like the edge that the 40 micron by itself gives.

The thing I struggled with in learning freehanding is how to hold the knife using both hands to get the most consistent angle every time. Played around with a few different styles until I found one that I liked. I think it's important to find a style that works for you and not necessarily emulate what someone else is doing. Only other advice I can give is keep your wrist locked and tilt your elbow to change the angle as you make your strokes.

[RugerNurse]

I might look into one of these stones for touching up at some point

[RugerNurse]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

[weeping minora]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

You can break a burr at any rate if you are uncareful, or otherwise clumsy. You don't really want to aim to work up a burr, but rather to work so that a burr runs the full length of the edge. The size is not really the key and shouldn't really be your aim, as it is just a guide to note when you need to switch to the opposite side, or otherwise move on. The more (or finer) stone progressions that you run, the smaller the burr will be(come). Regardless, don't treat the burr any different at any progression, in terms of respect, or you can lose your whole sharpening progress in one mistep in thinking that burr is gone. I minimize the burr on each stone before progressing on to my next stone/step, whereas some prefer to leave the burr intact and remove on their next progression.

[RugerNurse]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

You can break a burr at any rate if you are uncareful, or otherwise clumsy. You don't really want to aim to work up a burr, but rather to work so that a burr runs the full length of the edge. The size is not really the key and shouldn't really be your aim, as it is just a guide to note when you need to switch to the opposite side, or otherwise move on. The more (or finer) stone progressions that you run, the smaller the burr will be(come). Regardless, don't treat the burr any different at any progression, in terms of respect, or you can lose your whole sharpening progress in one mistep in thinking that burr is gone. I minimize the burr on each stone before progressing on to my next stone/step, whereas some prefer to leave the burr intact and remove on their next progression.

Thanks. I asked because I can get a burr on the edge length but it’s not large. I see these these videos where they get huge. Didn’t know if it mattered

[weeping minora]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

You can break a burr at any rate if you are uncareful, or otherwise clumsy. You don't really want to aim to work up a burr, but rather to work so that a burr runs the full length of the edge. The size is not really the key and shouldn't really be your aim, as it is just a guide to note when you need to switch to the opposite side, or otherwise move on. The more (or finer) stone progressions that you run, the smaller the burr will be(come). Regardless, don't treat the burr any different at any progression, in terms of respect, or you can lose your whole sharpening progress in one mistep in thinking that burr is gone. I minimize the burr on each stone before progressing on to my next stone/step, whereas some prefer to leave the burr intact and remove on their next progression.

Thanks. I asked because I can get a burr on the edge length but it’s not large. I see these these videos where they get huge. Didn’t know if it mattered

The smaller the better to get a cleaner edge.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

I don't need a burr at all to get a knife sharp, technically nobody else does either. In order to get an edge sharp, you simply must get the apex to a small enough thickness that it's ready to be micro-beveled with a few passes on each side at an elevated angle. This is easily achieved by grinding a very slightly visible flat or plateau on the apex and grind until it is not visible anymore along the length of the edge. This indicates you've achieved sufficient thinness to quickly apex on a micro.

That said, folks cannot accept the fact that generating a burr is a symptom of having already overground the edge. This is never desirable because several things happen at this point. First, you have to then use a special technique to actually remove the burr. Many here use strops to deburr, which works of course, but comes with a list of things that actually degrade the quality of edge. Second, it wastes steel and time on both grinding longer and taking longer to remove.

I generally just go 2x the angle on the stone that created the burr to remove it when needed. For lower quality/hardness/gummy steels I even go up to 3x or 45 degree angles. If it's really stubborn I'll lightly drag the burr over to one side on a stone by drawing the knife towards me like a draw-knife at roughly a 90 degree angle to the stone. This will make sure that when you go to cut the burr off at the 45 degree angle that it doesn't just fold out of the way/other side.

Arguing that one must generate a burr is essentially the same argument as saying the following (not my metaphor, this is from Cliff Stamp RIP). I'm paraphrasing what I recall but essentially saying that if you argue that creating a burr is a necessary step to sharpening it's the same as insisting that in order to make toast one must over cook the toast and burn the outer layer prior to removing that layer prior to consuming the toast. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I think it's insane.

When it's put like that it's quite obvious that creating a burr really should never be a goal in your sharpening. Quite the opposite, in fact as I've outlined. Does that mean that if you create a burr all is lost and you should start over from the beginning by cutting the edge off? Possibly, because if you've created a very large and prominent burr it damages the steel directly beneath that burr. If you simply remove THAT burr then you may not like how the edge performs after that.

Because you've cold-worked the steel that the apex is formed on and it behaves essentially as damaged steel of poor quality. If you've created a minimal burr and removed it gently under low grinding forces so as to minimize plastic deformation (the opposite of what most people do with strops -- ie. using high forces to break the burr off) then I see less issue especially if using a higher grit stone to create the burr. Hard stropping creates an edge on par with the lowest quality steel.

In summary, if you need the visual stimuli of seeing you've reached an apex then use a lightly visible burr. If you do not, I highly recommend trying plateau sharpening as Cliff called it. If you've done the first step (preparing the edge to proper thickness) then the final step (setting apex) is a snap and literally easy enough that even a child can be taught to do this properly in short order. It's the first step that gives the most trouble, which is merely aimed at shaping the edge bevel.

If you don't grind far enough then setting the apex on a micro-bevel will take a very long time. This is how I know I need to re-work the edge bevel on my working knives actually. When I sharpen I simply use a micro-bevel first and if it responds promptly to this by getting hair popping sharp in a few passes per side under very light force/pressure, I put the knife back into service. If it doesn't I'll then re-work the edge bevel ideally rather than taking more passes on the micro-bevel.

If you over grind the edge bevel and make a burr then you've obviously gone too far in getting the shaping step done. This actually causes time spent sharpening to really ramp up because the whole process should take about a minute with even an extremely dull edge. I've fiddled with more knives than I'd prefer to admit trying to get a clean apex that have been overground to a large burr and it's so tedious that often the best thing is to start over and cut the apex off.

[Sharp24/7]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

I don't need a burr at all to get a knife sharp, technically nobody else does either. In order to get an edge sharp, you simply must get the apex to a small enough thickness that it's ready to be micro-beveled with a few passes on each side at an elevated angle. This is easily achieved by grinding a very slightly visible flat or plateau on the apex and grind until it is not visible anymore along the length of the edge. This indicates you've achieved sufficient thinness to quickly apex on a micro.

That said, folks cannot accept the fact that generating a burr is a symptom of having already overground the edge. This is never desirable because several things happen at this point. First, you have to then use a special technique to actually remove the burr. Many here use strops to deburr, which works of course, but comes with a list of things that actually degrade the quality of edge. Second, it wastes steel and time on both grinding longer and taking longer to remove.

I generally just go 2x the angle on the stone that created the burr to remove it when needed. For lower quality/hardness/gummy steels I even go up to 3x or 45 degree angles. If it's really stubborn I'll lightly drag the burr over to one side on a stone by drawing the knife towards me like a draw-knife at roughly a 90 degree angle to the stone. This will make sure that when you go to cut the burr off at the 45 degree angle that it doesn't just fold out of the way/other side.

Arguing that one must generate a burr is essentially the same argument as saying the following (not my metaphor, this is from Cliff Stamp RIP). I'm paraphrasing what I recall but essentially saying that if you argue that creating a burr is a necessary step to sharpening it's the same as insisting that in order to make toast one must over cook the toast and burn the outer layer prior to removing that layer prior to consuming the toast. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I think it's insane.

When it's put like that it's quite obvious that creating a burr really should never be a goal in your sharpening. Quite the opposite, in fact as I've outlined. Does that mean that if you create a burr all is lost and you should start over from the beginning by cutting the edge off? Possibly, because if you've created a very large and prominent burr it damages the steel directly beneath that burr. If you simply remove THAT burr then you may not like how the edge performs after that.

Because you've cold-worked the steel that the apex is formed on and it behaves essentially as damaged steel of poor quality. If you've created a minimal burr and removed it gently under low grinding forces so as to minimize plastic deformation (the opposite of what most people do with strops -- ie. using high forces to break the burr off) then I see less issue especially if using a higher grit stone to create the burr. Hard stropping creates an edge on par with the lowest quality steel.

In summary, if you need the visual stimuli of seeing you've reached an apex then use a lightly visible burr. If you do not, I highly recommend trying plateau sharpening as Cliff called it. If you've done the first step (preparing the edge to proper thickness) then the final step (setting apex) is a snap and literally easy enough that even a child can be taught to do this properly in short order. It's the first step that gives the most trouble, which is merely aimed at shaping the edge bevel.

If you don't grind far enough then setting the apex on a micro-bevel will take a very long time. This is how I know I need to re-work the edge bevel on my working knives actually. When I sharpen I simply use a micro-bevel first and if it responds promptly to this by getting hair popping sharp in a few passes per side under very light force/pressure, I put the knife back into service. If it doesn't I'll then re-work the edge bevel ideally rather than taking more passes on the micro-bevel.

If you over grind the edge bevel and make a burr then you've obviously gone too far in getting the shaping step done. This actually causes time spent sharpening to really ramp up because the whole process should take about a minute with even an extremely dull edge. I've fiddled with more knives than I'd prefer to admit trying to get a clean apex that have been overground to a large burr and it's so tedious that often the best thing is to start over and cut the apex off.

I seem to remember Cliff saying to use a very muddy water stone as well, to prevent the burr from forming in the first place. Like a Bester 700 or a Sigma Power II.

[RugerNurse]

What is plateau sharpening? Just alternating sides? How can you tell that you’ve apexed the edge?

[ejames13]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

I don't need a burr at all to get a knife sharp, technically nobody else does either. In order to get an edge sharp, you simply must get the apex to a small enough thickness that it's ready to be micro-beveled with a few passes on each side at an elevated angle. This is easily achieved by grinding a very slightly visible flat or plateau on the apex and grind until it is not visible anymore along the length of the edge. This indicates you've achieved sufficient thinness to quickly apex on a micro.

That said, folks cannot accept the fact that generating a burr is a symptom of having already overground the edge. This is never desirable because several things happen at this point. First, you have to then use a special technique to actually remove the burr. Many here use strops to deburr, which works of course, but comes with a list of things that actually degrade the quality of edge. Second, it wastes steel and time on both grinding longer and taking longer to remove.

I generally just go 2x the angle on the stone that created the burr to remove it when needed. For lower quality/hardness/gummy steels I even go up to 3x or 45 degree angles. If it's really stubborn I'll lightly drag the burr over to one side on a stone by drawing the knife towards me like a draw-knife at roughly a 90 degree angle to the stone. This will make sure that when you go to cut the burr off at the 45 degree angle that it doesn't just fold out of the way/other side.

Arguing that one must generate a burr is essentially the same argument as saying the following (not my metaphor, this is from Cliff Stamp RIP). I'm paraphrasing what I recall but essentially saying that if you argue that creating a burr is a necessary step to sharpening it's the same as insisting that in order to make toast one must over cook the toast and burn the outer layer prior to removing that layer prior to consuming the toast. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I think it's insane.

When it's put like that it's quite obvious that creating a burr really should never be a goal in your sharpening. Quite the opposite, in fact as I've outlined. Does that mean that if you create a burr all is lost and you should start over from the beginning by cutting the edge off? Possibly, because if you've created a very large and prominent burr it damages the steel directly beneath that burr. If you simply remove THAT burr then you may not like how the edge performs after that.

Because you've cold-worked the steel that the apex is formed on and it behaves essentially as damaged steel of poor quality. If you've created a minimal burr and removed it gently under low grinding forces so as to minimize plastic deformation (the opposite of what most people do with strops -- ie. using high forces to break the burr off) then I see less issue especially if using a higher grit stone to create the burr. Hard stropping creates an edge on par with the lowest quality steel.

In summary, if you need the visual stimuli of seeing you've reached an apex then use a lightly visible burr. If you do not, I highly recommend trying plateau sharpening as Cliff called it. If you've done the first step (preparing the edge to proper thickness) then the final step (setting apex) is a snap and literally easy enough that even a child can be taught to do this properly in short order. It's the first step that gives the most trouble, which is merely aimed at shaping the edge bevel.

If you don't grind far enough then setting the apex on a micro-bevel will take a very long time. This is how I know I need to re-work the edge bevel on my working knives actually. When I sharpen I simply use a micro-bevel first and if it responds promptly to this by getting hair popping sharp in a few passes per side under very light force/pressure, I put the knife back into service. If it doesn't I'll then re-work the edge bevel ideally rather than taking more passes on the micro-bevel.

If you over grind the edge bevel and make a burr then you've obviously gone too far in getting the shaping step done. This actually causes time spent sharpening to really ramp up because the whole process should take about a minute with even an extremely dull edge. I've fiddled with more knives than I'd prefer to admit trying to get a clean apex that have been overground to a large burr and it's so tedious that often the best thing is to start over and cut the apex off.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Doesn't this technically mean you are never grinding a completely fresh apex?

How do you deal with edges that have any kind of damage?

Have you tested edge retention using one method vs the other, all other things being equal?

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

I don't need a burr at all to get a knife sharp, technically nobody else does either. In order to get an edge sharp, you simply must get the apex to a small enough thickness that it's ready to be micro-beveled with a few passes on each side at an elevated angle. This is easily achieved by grinding a very slightly visible flat or plateau on the apex and grind until it is not visible anymore along the length of the edge. This indicates you've achieved sufficient thinness to quickly apex on a micro.

That said, folks cannot accept the fact that generating a burr is a symptom of having already overground the edge. This is never desirable because several things happen at this point. First, you have to then use a special technique to actually remove the burr. Many here use strops to deburr, which works of course, but comes with a list of things that actually degrade the quality of edge. Second, it wastes steel and time on both grinding longer and taking longer to remove.

I generally just go 2x the angle on the stone that created the burr to remove it when needed. For lower quality/hardness/gummy steels I even go up to 3x or 45 degree angles. If it's really stubborn I'll lightly drag the burr over to one side on a stone by drawing the knife towards me like a draw-knife at roughly a 90 degree angle to the stone. This will make sure that when you go to cut the burr off at the 45 degree angle that it doesn't just fold out of the way/other side.

Arguing that one must generate a burr is essentially the same argument as saying the following (not my metaphor, this is from Cliff Stamp RIP). I'm paraphrasing what I recall but essentially saying that if you argue that creating a burr is a necessary step to sharpening it's the same as insisting that in order to make toast one must over cook the toast and burn the outer layer prior to removing that layer prior to consuming the toast. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I think it's insane.

When it's put like that it's quite obvious that creating a burr really should never be a goal in your sharpening. Quite the opposite, in fact as I've outlined. Does that mean that if you create a burr all is lost and you should start over from the beginning by cutting the edge off? Possibly, because if you've created a very large and prominent burr it damages the steel directly beneath that burr. If you simply remove THAT burr then you may not like how the edge performs after that.

Because you've cold-worked the steel that the apex is formed on and it behaves essentially as damaged steel of poor quality. If you've created a minimal burr and removed it gently under low grinding forces so as to minimize plastic deformation (the opposite of what most people do with strops -- ie. using high forces to break the burr off) then I see less issue especially if using a higher grit stone to create the burr. Hard stropping creates an edge on par with the lowest quality steel.

In summary, if you need the visual stimuli of seeing you've reached an apex then use a lightly visible burr. If you do not, I highly recommend trying plateau sharpening as Cliff called it. If you've done the first step (preparing the edge to proper thickness) then the final step (setting apex) is a snap and literally easy enough that even a child can be taught to do this properly in short order. It's the first step that gives the most trouble, which is merely aimed at shaping the edge bevel.

If you don't grind far enough then setting the apex on a micro-bevel will take a very long time. This is how I know I need to re-work the edge bevel on my working knives actually. When I sharpen I simply use a micro-bevel first and if it responds promptly to this by getting hair popping sharp in a few passes per side under very light force/pressure, I put the knife back into service. If it doesn't I'll then re-work the edge bevel ideally rather than taking more passes on the micro-bevel.

If you over grind the edge bevel and make a burr then you've obviously gone too far in getting the shaping step done. This actually causes time spent sharpening to really ramp up because the whole process should take about a minute with even an extremely dull edge. I've fiddled with more knives than I'd prefer to admit trying to get a clean apex that have been overground to a large burr and it's so tedious that often the best thing is to start over and cut the apex off.

I seem to remember Cliff saying to use a very muddy water stone as well, to prevent the burr from forming in the first place. Like a Bester 700 or a Sigma Power II.

That is correct, a stone that releases a thick colloidal type slurry is going to be the best choice for shaping edges prior to apexing. If you try to use a stone like this for setting the apex, it's not going to work well at all because the same loose grit rolling around on the surface is going to dull the apex as you are grinding it unless you use edge trailing strokes. To be clear, it's not entirely necessary for the purposes of plateau sharpening that you use a muddy stone for step one.

You can also still use a hard bond or plated stone but you must check frequently to catch the edge at the proper apex thickness so as to not over-grind. With a muddy slurry type stone in the neighborhood of a King 1000 you can simply grind away like a madman and a burr with pretty much never form.

It's extremely wasteful to keep going beyond the light stopping reflecting but as you say it does save you in the end if you've overground the edge to some degree. You also want to use a stone like this after doing any sort of coarse edge work with a coarse stone as it will get rid of the heavy damage/burr formation from the coarse stone and better prepare for apexing.

You want to use a hard bonded stone such as Crystolon, India, Spyderco Ceramic, CBN/Diamond plate, etc., when applying the apex step for this reason. If you reverse the stones and use a hard bond stone for shaping and a soft bond for apexing then you've essentially chosen the worst tool in both cases and life will be very painful for you in all likelihood.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Not to be annoying: but how large of a burr do you need? I saw some YouTube videos where the burr is so big they can break it off with their fingers. Mine never gets that large, no matter how much I sharpen on one side

I don't need a burr at all to get a knife sharp, technically nobody else does either. In order to get an edge sharp, you simply must get the apex to a small enough thickness that it's ready to be micro-beveled with a few passes on each side at an elevated angle. This is easily achieved by grinding a very slightly visible flat or plateau on the apex and grind until it is not visible anymore along the length of the edge. This indicates you've achieved sufficient thinness to quickly apex on a micro.

That said, folks cannot accept the fact that generating a burr is a symptom of having already overground the edge. This is never desirable because several things happen at this point. First, you have to then use a special technique to actually remove the burr. Many here use strops to deburr, which works of course, but comes with a list of things that actually degrade the quality of edge. Second, it wastes steel and time on both grinding longer and taking longer to remove.

I generally just go 2x the angle on the stone that created the burr to remove it when needed. For lower quality/hardness/gummy steels I even go up to 3x or 45 degree angles. If it's really stubborn I'll lightly drag the burr over to one side on a stone by drawing the knife towards me like a draw-knife at roughly a 90 degree angle to the stone. This will make sure that when you go to cut the burr off at the 45 degree angle that it doesn't just fold out of the way/other side.

Arguing that one must generate a burr is essentially the same argument as saying the following (not my metaphor, this is from Cliff Stamp RIP). I'm paraphrasing what I recall but essentially saying that if you argue that creating a burr is a necessary step to sharpening it's the same as insisting that in order to make toast one must over cook the toast and burn the outer layer prior to removing that layer prior to consuming the toast. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I think it's insane.

When it's put like that it's quite obvious that creating a burr really should never be a goal in your sharpening. Quite the opposite, in fact as I've outlined. Does that mean that if you create a burr all is lost and you should start over from the beginning by cutting the edge off? Possibly, because if you've created a very large and prominent burr it damages the steel directly beneath that burr. If you simply remove THAT burr then you may not like how the edge performs after that.

Because you've cold-worked the steel that the apex is formed on and it behaves essentially as damaged steel of poor quality. If you've created a minimal burr and removed it gently under low grinding forces so as to minimize plastic deformation (the opposite of what most people do with strops -- ie. using high forces to break the burr off) then I see less issue especially if using a higher grit stone to create the burr. Hard stropping creates an edge on par with the lowest quality steel.

In summary, if you need the visual stimuli of seeing you've reached an apex then use a lightly visible burr. If you do not, I highly recommend trying plateau sharpening as Cliff called it. If you've done the first step (preparing the edge to proper thickness) then the final step (setting apex) is a snap and literally easy enough that even a child can be taught to do this properly in short order. It's the first step that gives the most trouble, which is merely aimed at shaping the edge bevel.

If you don't grind far enough then setting the apex on a micro-bevel will take a very long time. This is how I know I need to re-work the edge bevel on my working knives actually. When I sharpen I simply use a micro-bevel first and if it responds promptly to this by getting hair popping sharp in a few passes per side under very light force/pressure, I put the knife back into service. If it doesn't I'll then re-work the edge bevel ideally rather than taking more passes on the micro-bevel.

If you over grind the edge bevel and make a burr then you've obviously gone too far in getting the shaping step done. This actually causes time spent sharpening to really ramp up because the whole process should take about a minute with even an extremely dull edge. I've fiddled with more knives than I'd prefer to admit trying to get a clean apex that have been overground to a large burr and it's so tedious that often the best thing is to start over and cut the apex off.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Doesn't this technically mean you are never grinding a completely fresh apex?

How do you deal with edges that have any kind of damage?

Have you tested edge retention using one method vs the other, all other things being equal?

Not entirely, every time you grind the micro-bevel you are removing a small bit of apex steel to reduce the apex thickness. This is a frequent thing for me as I simply won't use a knife that isn't both very sharp and very acute at the edge. That said, as soon as I see cutting drop off then I'm removing fatigued steel off the apex and thinning it simultaneously via micro.

I generally don't see much in the way of damage when doing this in my limited uses. I run edges often around 10 DPS or lower and 15 DPS apex and the only way to meaningfully damage that with a reasonably strong/tough steel is to impact some sort of inclusion or very hard material (metals, rocks, etc.). If that happens then I would work the edge bevel first.

If I notice a pattern of very short intervals of the sharpness dropping off then I will assume the apex has become fatigued and needs to have the edge bevel planed back a bit and reset the apex with a full plateau sharpening process. This usually yields a big improvement I've observed in both sharpness and edge retention, so it is the best practice if you have time.

As a wise man once said, "safety first". This means that I really do not get hung up on edge retention because I value keeping my body intact above all else. Therefore, I take edges down to the point of taking some damage and slightly thicken. Low force cutting requires excellent cutting geometry, less force equals less chance of slipping off of cuts, etc.

When you're grinding edges this way then touchups are very fast in the micro, so it's really a trivial matter. I have not tested the differences but Cliff Stamp had an insisted that plateau sharpening produced a superior longevity. I'm not going to dig up the source but I'm sure a quick search will find something along those lines. He felt this was the ideal way to sharpen.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

What is plateau sharpening? Just alternating sides? How can you tell that you’ve apexed the edge?

This video explains the basic process in simple way, start here...

[MacLaren]

Jason ^^^^^^ is the best I've ever seen at sharpening a knife. And, I'm talkin Free Hand!
He's sharpened several for me & they've all cut and sliced better than anything I could ever turn out.
The man has an amazing talent.
Send him a knife or 3 and see.....

[p_atrick]

This video explains the basic process in simple way, start here...

Would you say that plateau sharpening is harder than raising a burr? I feel like a burr is definitive proof that you have reached the apex--or gone too far according to some. I like the feedback, even though it is wasteful. I really should put in the time to learn how to plateau sharpening.

I've seen that video before several times, but I have a few questions. How does grit progression play into plateau sharpening? Let's say I want to go 400 => 1000. If I shape the apex with the 400 and light no longer reflects, so I just put a micro bevel on with the 1000 grit stone? Or do I continue to shape (but not form a burr) with the 1000 and then put on a micro bevel after getting rid of the 400-grit scratch pattern?

Towards the end of the video, Cliff talks about how he almost (but not quite) push cut. How would you remedy this? Would you spend some more time on the micro bevel? Go back to shaping the apex? Both?

[Traditional.Sharpening]

This video explains the basic process in simple way, start here...

Would you say that plateau sharpening is harder than raising a burr? I feel like a burr is definitive proof that you have reached the apex--or gone too far according to some. I like the feedback, even though it is wasteful. I really should put in the time to learn how to plateau sharpening.

I've seen that video before several times, but I have a few questions. How does grit progression play into plateau sharpening? Let's say I want to go 400 => 1000. If I shape the apex with the 400 and light no longer reflects, so I just put a micro bevel on with the 1000 grit stone? Or do I continue to shape (but not form a burr) with the 1000 and then put on a micro bevel after getting rid of the 400-grit scratch pattern?

Towards the end of the video, Cliff talks about how he almost (but not quite) push cut. How would you remedy this? Would you spend some more time on the micro bevel? Go back to shaping the apex? Both?

I don't find it harder to plateau sharpening in general but there are times it may be, low light would make this difficult if you can't see the destressed 'plateau' reflecting light in the first place. A burr is a very easy way to teach a beginner when they've apexed, they may not understand the plateau concept. Some folks may have poor vision and it would be easier to feel a burr. If you feel the need, then go for what you prefer. It's not wrong, just a different pro/con balance overall.

What Cliff was trying to demonstrate is that sharpening is really an extremely basic concept and can be accomplished to a very high level (by most people's standards) with minimal equipment. Having one single stone is truly all you need but it's better to have at least a couple as I've mentioned a couple posts back here. It goes both ways though because the tendency I have seen is for many people to overcomplicate the process so much that if it gets sharp, they have no idea what did it.

If you can't get a knife as sharp as he demonstrates with a single coarse grit stone then you need more practice as it's really not that hard to accomplish IMO. Ideally you would only apex with the actual finishing grit, in your example the 1000 would be used to micro-bevel and 400 for shaping previously. In some cases such as very high carbide or brittle steels, you'd need to use the 1000 grit stone to clean up the edge bevel after the 400 grit stone, then apex with the 1000.

I wouldn't say you actually need to remedy the fact that the knife will not push cut newsprint. That's a very unnecessary level of sharpness for basic utility. If you're doing a lot of wood cutting or other push cuts then it's good to go for more refinement at the apex. The best way to do this would simply be to use a very fine stone to set the apex rather than how Cliff used the same coarse stone to apex. You would not want to apex with that stone, then 1k, 5k, etc. as is quite common.

[Scandi Grind]

This video explains the basic process in simple way, start here...

I've seen that video before several times, but I have a few questions. How does grit progression play into plateau sharpening? Let's say I want to go 400 => 1000. If I shape the apex with the 400 and light no longer reflects, so I just put a micro bevel on with the 1000 grit stone? Or do I continue to shape (but not form a burr) with the 1000 and then put on a micro bevel after getting rid of the 400-grit scratch pattern?

Towards the end of the video, Cliff talks about how he almost (but not quite) push cut. How would you remedy this? Would you spend some more time on the micro bevel? Go back to shaping the apex? Both?

The very edge is virtually the only thing that matters in terms of how your progression effects cutting, anything behind the very edge is just how the metal that isn't your actual edge is textured. That is to say if you micro bevel your edge at 1000, then you have a 1000 grit edge, regardless of the scratch size behind your edge. However a situation that is an exception to this for example, is if you used a very coarse 220 stone and fully apexed the edge, let's say you formed a burr and reduced it, then you micro bevel very lightly and not very steeply on a 3000 grit stone, it is quite possible that you might not work out all the coarseness, basically microchips, from the 220. You end up with a sort of smoothed out coarse edge in this case, which is actually something I have done intentionally on cheapy kitchen knives that benefit from very toothy edges. Still experimenting with it but had very good results recently.

And yes, as Traditional.Sharpening said, going to a finer grit would probably remedy the lack of push cuttiness.

[vivi]

Yep, if you use a microbevel you can do large jumps between grits. I often go straight from a belt sander to a fine ceramic spyderco stone.

I agree with regards to raising a burr. There's no reason to intentionally do it once you have some practice under your belt. I never raise one on purpose when I touch up knives.