Community Sharpening Journal

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
kennbr34
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2221

Post by kennbr34 »

I got bored and decided to mirror polish this Cold Steel "Black Bear" Bowie Machete. No real reason than I thought it would be fun to mirror finish a bevel this large. The back bevel was too recurved to put on stones without a ton of reprofiling, but I kind of like it being a coarse on that side. Not that I really plan to use it, I already have one of their kukri machetes that I like to use. I just wanted a bowie-shaped-object for cheap.

It's not a perfect mirror polish, there's a few spots that I couldn't get the deeper scratches out, but I have only ever mirror polished one other bevel quite this wide, and it wasn't nearly as long. It actually came with a pretty decent grind from the factory, compared to what used to come on these Cold Steel machetes. The back bevel is pretty much the factory grind. Just needed to be deburred. Not sure if this is one of the new GSM models.

The main bevel had a slight recurve I had to grind out, but I kept the geometry, which is about 20-25 DPS. Again, I doubt I will actually use it much, but that feels appropriate for soft 1055 carbon steel and a bevel this wide. Again, it's technically a machete, so the blade is only about 1/8" with no blade grind; t's more of a scandi grind really.

Used my Baronyx Knife Co. Manticore, Atoma 140, 400 and then 1200, then Shapton Kuromakus from 2000, 5000 and 8000, then finally finished it with a Naniwa Gouken 120000.

Anyone know if the Naniwas are supposed to be soakers or splash and go? I usually just use it for my straight razors, so I never actually need to remove much material. But I just splashed water on it and started polishing and the surface loaded up almost immediately. You can see it in the drying rack still all loaded up.

The Atomas did well, but unless it's my imagination, the 400 actually cuts faster than the 140. I've done a lot of flattening with the 140 though, and the 400 is new, so I figure it will probably slow down as it breaks in. Had to hit them with some bar keepers friend after all that 1055 swarf ended up rusting on them. That was pretty revealing how inadequate just rinsing them with water is.

The Shaptons did well as usual. The only thing that's weird about them is that the edges always tend to get more loaded than the center. I think I just need to put larger chamfers on the sides

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horzuff
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2222

Post by horzuff »

Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:29 am
Not Shawn obviously, but I'd try the Atoma plates or DMT Diaflat plates for this application. If you want you could also use the bonded Diamond 'stones' like the Nano Hone/Naniwa/etc., but a perfectly flat fixed abrasive on a plate is going to get sharper in my experience than something that releases abrasives. I haven't used the bonded diamond stuff so maybe it's not enough release to matter but it's possible that it wouldn't be ideal there.
The ones You've suggested probably won't work with ceramics unless this HIC will be much more ductile than up-to-date ceramics. Even the ceramic Sandrin uses, which contains plenty of metal binder compared to usual tungsten carbide tools, chips on conventional diamond plates.
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Traditional.Sharpening
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2223

Post by Traditional.Sharpening »

horzuff wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:07 am
Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:29 am
Not Shawn obviously, but I'd try the Atoma plates or DMT Diaflat plates for this application. If you want you could also use the bonded Diamond 'stones' like the Nano Hone/Naniwa/etc., but a perfectly flat fixed abrasive on a plate is going to get sharper in my experience than something that releases abrasives. I haven't used the bonded diamond stuff so maybe it's not enough release to matter but it's possible that it wouldn't be ideal there.
The ones You've suggested probably won't work with ceramics unless this HIC will be much more ductile than up-to-date ceramics. Even the ceramic Sandrin uses, which contains plenty of metal binder compared to usual tungsten carbide tools, chips on conventional diamond plates.
If those won't work, why would anything else work and what would you recommend? I'd expect that this has a lot to do with technique in sharpening and a plate that may chip with user A may be perfectly fine with user B. What are the edge geometries involved and what grit ratings are being used? I'd expect a coarse plate to present more likelihood of chipping than a finer one.

I'd expect more pressure in grinding to cause more chipping. I'd expect a user who sharpens daily on a finer plate to remove stressed material at the apex frequently would be less likely to encounter chipping. Use the plate dry without a lubricant, more chipping. There's a lot of variables and I can't see how it would be as simple as diamond plates I recommended will chip no matter what.
horzuff
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2224

Post by horzuff »

You try to apply steel logic to ceramic sharpening. Steel is ductile, ceramic is brittle. That's not a difference as in between a tough and brittle steel but completely different behavior. Ceramic doesn't fatigue, doesn't really deform plastically as steel does either. It just fractures.

That's why I suggested what Sandrin suggests for their tungsten carbide knives - lapping films. From that I inferred, that maybe other soft-backed abrasives might work as well, thus my mention of resing bonded stones, but only as a somewhat-informed guess. The suggested mechanism is that the pliable backing offers some give, so the diamond particles "get out of the way" instead of fracturing the edge

I've seen reports from sharpening ceramics (standard white ceramic kitchen knife and Sandrin's PTC) where standard diamond plates result in a completely micro-chipped edge.
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Traditional.Sharpening
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2225

Post by Traditional.Sharpening »

horzuff wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:49 am
You try to apply steel logic to ceramic sharpening. Steel is ductile, ceramic is brittle. That's not a difference as in between a tough and brittle steel but completely different behavior. Ceramic doesn't fatigue, doesn't really deform plastically as steel does either. It just fractures.

That's why I suggested what Sandrin suggests for their tungsten carbide knives - lapping films. From that I inferred, that maybe other soft-backed abrasives might work as well, thus my mention of resing bonded stones, but only as a somewhat-informed guess. The suggested mechanism is that the pliable backing offers some give, so the diamond particles "get out of the way" instead of fracturing the edge

I've seen reports from sharpening ceramics (standard white ceramic kitchen knife and Sandrin's PTC) where standard diamond plates result in a completely micro-chipped edge.
I don't believe that's correct since the designation 'High Impact Ceramic' is highly suggestive that this material MUST be far more ductile than other ceramic materials. You can likely say truthfully that steel in general is more ductile and ceramic in general is more brittle. Common ceramics may be brittle but the reality is they will still be subject to stress at the apex which must be removed otherwise you'll just end up with micro-cracks at the apex which propogate up into the blade leading to chips (brittle failure) rather than deformation (ductile failure).

If you are looking for a very clean apex then you (hypothetical user of HIC blade) have chosen the wrong blade and the fact that there are micro-chips at the apex will likely only serve to further extend edge retention by having those micro-chips create more micro-chips in use and give a 'self-sharpening' effect. You're also missing the fact that lapping films most likely need to be used with a stropping motion which would also reduce the pressures on the apex of the abrasive impacting it and forming chips. It's not wise to assume that it's because of the fact that the abrasive unit has a soft backing.

If the diamond particles get out of the way then they'd simply not be cutting. The abrasive has to run into the apex in order to sharpen it. There's no getting away from this reality, the only thing you can change is whether it's with the apex leading or the apex trailing. Soft back forces apex trailing passes, I'd say that's a good thing with ceramics if you're not getting burr formation like steel generally does when using edge trailing passes.
vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2226

Post by vivi »

Sharpened my new shovel.

Full grit progression:

* Belt sander with 120 grit belt

Photos:

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Do you think this will be polished enough or should I go mirror mode? Is it best to use shovel head leading or shovel head trailing strokes??? Should I throw this away if it doesn't pass the paper towel test???!!1
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RustyIron
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2227

Post by RustyIron »

vivi wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:23 pm
Do you think this will be polished enough or should I go mirror mode? Is it best to use shovel head leading or shovel head trailing strokes???

I'm afraid that a polished edge like that won't be very useful. It won't be able to cut much dirty rope in a storm. You should use a coarser stone for optimum performance. Polished edges like that are for prancing dandies trying to look flashy, or for your most intimate manscaping tasks.
vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2228

Post by vivi »

noticed some edge damage on my s7 scrapyard, which is very unusual for it. I was doing some trail clearing at night so maybe I ended up hitting some metal or a rock at some point and didn't notice.

Here's a before & after image of the affected area, as seen through a different loupe of mine. 10x.

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Gave it around 12 strokes per side on my 300 grit diamond stone, then 2 passes per side om the medium sharpmaker rods at 20 degrees.

more images:


both sides of the edge before touch-up:

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Both sides after touch up

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Bonus pic of the knife in my pocket (sr1 lite). 300 grit edge, one stroke per side on fine sharpmaker rods.

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horzuff
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2229

Post by horzuff »

Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:48 am
horzuff wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:49 am
You try to apply steel logic to ceramic sharpening. Steel is ductile, ceramic is brittle. That's not a difference as in between a tough and brittle steel but completely different behavior. Ceramic doesn't fatigue, doesn't really deform plastically as steel does either. It just fractures.

That's why I suggested what Sandrin suggests for their tungsten carbide knives - lapping films. From that I inferred, that maybe other soft-backed abrasives might work as well, thus my mention of resing bonded stones, but only as a somewhat-informed guess. The suggested mechanism is that the pliable backing offers some give, so the diamond particles "get out of the way" instead of fracturing the edge

I've seen reports from sharpening ceramics (standard white ceramic kitchen knife and Sandrin's PTC) where standard diamond plates result in a completely micro-chipped edge.
I don't believe that's correct since the designation 'High Impact Ceramic' is highly suggestive that this material MUST be far more ductile than other ceramic materials. You can likely say truthfully that steel in general is more ductile and ceramic in general is more brittle. Common ceramics may be brittle but the reality is they will still be subject to stress at the apex which must be removed otherwise you'll just end up with micro-cracks at the apex which propogate up into the blade leading to chips (brittle failure) rather than deformation (ductile failure).

If you are looking for a very clean apex then you (hypothetical user of HIC blade) have chosen the wrong blade and the fact that there are micro-chips at the apex will likely only serve to further extend edge retention by having those micro-chips create more micro-chips in use and give a 'self-sharpening' effect. You're also missing the fact that lapping films most likely need to be used with a stropping motion which would also reduce the pressures on the apex of the abrasive impacting it and forming chips. It's not wise to assume that it's because of the fact that the abrasive unit has a soft backing.

If the diamond particles get out of the way then they'd simply not be cutting. The abrasive has to run into the apex in order to sharpen it. There's no getting away from this reality, the only thing you can change is whether it's with the apex leading or the apex trailing. Soft back forces apex trailing passes, I'd say that's a good thing with ceramics if you're not getting burr formation like steel generally does when using edge trailing passes.
Ah, it might be the edge trailiness indeed. I was just basing it on stuff I took from https://youtu.be/IDoWZ2-2yVk . We will probably see. Or we can ask @KKnives_Switzerland ?

P.S. Is it possible to tag users here on the forum?
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Deadboxhero
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2230

Post by Deadboxhero »

Spyderco Double Stuff 2 cBN under magnification.

New, areas of exposed amber cBN and silver nickel coated cBN grains
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Used after several hundred knives, reduced abrasive grains heavy clogging with metal from cutting steel.
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Cleaned with melamine plastic abrasive and BKF
Areas of tear out, abrasive volume is reduced and some grains are duller. Single layer of coated abrasive no matter how hard will eventually will wear away and need to be replaced with a new stone/plate.
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kennethsime
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2231

Post by kennethsime »

Here are a few of my recent sharpening adventures.

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One of my employees found a Kershaw Conduit stuck in a tree on a hike. I offered to take it home and sharpen it. Man, what a bear! First I tried the CBN rods, then I realized there was serious edge damage, so I took it to the WPA with the 320 Grit diamond plate. This is after about an hour of sharpening at 17º per side. It was hard to tell what was going on with this knife - couldn't feel a burr, just kind of went for it. Got reasonably sharp, would carve paper, but still felt pretty thick.

Note there is still an area near the heel with edge damage, but it cut well enough so I moved on. I told him to use it until it was dull again, then I'd take another whack at it. Now looking at the image, I think I see a burr too. :-/

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I don't particularly love the Rock Jumper, but it is a **** of a knife. I think I just need one in green or something. Anyway, it got used on a roofing project recently and I dinged up the edge pretty good. Took it down to 15º per side on the Sharpmaker CBN until I had a clean edge, then browns, then whites. VG-10 is a LOT easier to work work. I could feel the burr with the stone, very clean apex, just a joy to sharpen. It passed the standing paper test no problem. VG-10 is very easy to get screaming sharp. Feels very fine-grained, if that makes sense.

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Finally, my Bugout. I hit some concrete the other day and need to clean up the edge. Drop points are my favorite, but I've been having a lot of trouble lately hitting the full length of the edge. Using the Sharpe trick, it took a LOT longer to clean up the sharpie at the heel and the tip of the blade. Anyway, finally took it down to 15º per side on the CBNs, then the browns, then the whites. You can see there is still some moderate edge damage, but it cuts well enough for edc. I'll carry it until it dulls some more then try to make some more progress.

Sharpening back-to-back with VG-10, S30V felt... rough. I imagine it's those vanadium carbides, but who knows. The Bugout also just feels... a bit thick behind the edge. I don't have calipers so I'm not sure, but after taking a very similar approach between the Rock Jumper and the Bugout, it was clear the Rock Jumper was significantly sharper - much less resistance felt when slicing paper.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
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olywa
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2232

Post by olywa »

Hey Vivi, I dig a sharp shovel (literally). That one looks almost too pretty to use.

Also wanted to mention that I've been using the coarse Idahone triangle rods for over a year now, typically as a progression between Sharpmaker CBN and Brown rods. They seem most useful if I'm thinning out a serrated edge.
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Ramonade
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2233

Post by Ramonade »

Well, today found a new reason to put my edge on a new knife immediately, wahoo !
That's the worst factory edge I've seen yet. I usually don't care much about asymmetry from one side to the other because I can handle that well, but I'm definitely curious as to what happened there.
I'd like to see the factory edge on another M4 Tenacious.

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:respect In the collection :respect : Lots of different steels, in lots of different (and same) Spydercos.

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u.w.
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2234

Post by u.w. »

vivi wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:44 am
https://idahoners.com/products/7-triang ... 2238502026

has anyone tried these? they look like they could be nice for applying quick toothy edges.
Hey vivi,

I bought a coarse (100-200 grit) and medium (500-ish grit) one last Sunday when I got home from my run and saw your post w/ link. They got delivered today.
I re-touched up my K390 Police 4 LW, K390 Endela, and my Salt Stretch2XL LW. They did worked just fine for it. Small enough to be easily held in hand between thumb and midle finger tip with knife in other hand. That works great for me because I sharpen stone in (one) hand (thumb &finger tip(s)) and knife in other hand.
I'll continue to use them and see how they do; and they will likely accompany me on some trips, as they are super light weight too.

The blue (medium) feels a little coarser than the Spyderco Medium, and the grey (coarse) feels much coarser, as you'd expect.

Thanks for posting the link

u.w.
vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2235

Post by vivi »

u.w. wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:24 pm
vivi wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:44 am
https://idahoners.com/products/7-triang ... 2238502026

has anyone tried these? they look like they could be nice for applying quick toothy edges.
Hey vivi,

I bought a coarse (100-200 grit) and medium (500-ish grit) one last Sunday when I got home from my run and saw your post w/ link. They got delivered today.
I re-touched up my K390 Police 4 LW, K390 Endela, and my Salt Stretch2XL LW. They did worked just fine for it. Small enough to be easily held in hand between thumb and midle finger tip with knife in other hand. That works great for me because I sharpen stone in (one) hand (thumb &finger tip(s)) and knife in other hand.
I'll continue to use them and see how they do; and they will likely accompany me on some trips, as they are super light weight too.

The blue (medium) feels a little coarser than the Spyderco Medium, and the grey (coarse) feels much coarser, as you'd expect.

Thanks for posting the link

u.w.
thanks for the feedback. sounds like I should order a set too. I don't really have a go to stone for touching up knives that's between my 300 grit diamond plate and medium bench stone / sharpmaker rods from spyderco.

I like the 300 grit finish a lot but it's not the best for touch-ups because a lot of knives I use microbevels. 300 grit plate means I have to refresh the full bevel frequently to avoid the apex getting thick. but the medium rods are a bit finer of a finish than I prefer.

the blues might be the ticket.

I use a similar method as you with the sharpmaker stones. Hold one between my thumb and middle finger, with my knife I'm sharpening in my dominant hand. I could get by with one of those four sided harbor freight stones and a single sharpmaker rod for the majority of my sharpening.
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barnaclesonaboat
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2236

Post by barnaclesonaboat »

All of my spydies have been holding their edges so well that I managed to make it 24 days into 2024 without putting steel to stones. Since I hadn't reprofiled anything since mid-December, I brought one of our kitchen parers to the temple of sharp (just the kitchen table ;) ) to have a fresh edge.

The knife is made of a steel I hadn't heard of before: X50CrMoV15. A little bit of internet-ing tells me it is very similar, if not equivalent to 1.4116. Nominal composition seems to be:
C 0.45-0.55%
Cr 14-15%
Mo 0.5-0.8%
V 0.1-0.2%
Mn 1.00
Si 0.5-1.0
P 0-0.04
S 0-0.015

I have been looking forward to sharpening this knife since we got it last year, mainly because I liked the design and favored it over other parers, but also because of how it performed: it held it's edge considerably better than some other similarly-priced kitchen blades we use. Photos are below, but I'll try to paraphrase: the factory edge was around 17-19 degrees/side. I reprofiled at ~14 degrees with Atoma 400, then apexed with a Jende 600 plate, followed by Jende diamond resin at 15, 9, and then 3 um. Stroped with 1um Gunny juice. It's sharp now, and it was very easy to get there with this steel. With the thin distal taper on this particular knife it's just melting laser lines through tomatoes now (also whittles U-Line catalog paper, my new qualitative front-end sharpness test that doesn't bald my forearms).

The stamp:
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Factory edge. Slices computer paper, but hiccups on U-line catalog paper:
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The new ~28 degree inclusive edge:
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Proof is in the pudding, or in this case the U-line catalog:
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vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2237

Post by vivi »

Here is the $50 sander I used

Cold Steel Voyager XL has been one of my favorite EDC knives this winter. Mine gets used hard, being brought out to the woods to assist with building fires and clearing trails, etc. It's no stranger to chopping and batoning, along with more typical use.

This is an older one in CTSBD1.

before:


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after:

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Chip isn't quite sharpened out, but getting closer as it gets sharpened down more.

https://dubz.live/c/c6eec6
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kennethsime
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2238

Post by kennethsime »

vivi wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:07 pm
Chip isn't quite sharpened out, but getting closer as it gets sharpened down more.
Glad I'm not the only one with a "let it ride" approach.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2239

Post by vivi »

kennethsime wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:13 pm
vivi wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:07 pm
Chip isn't quite sharpened out, but getting closer as it gets sharpened down more.
Glad I'm not the only one with a "let it ride" approach.
I figure with a good 4-4.5" of edge before I get to the chip, I can slice most things withiut it getting in the way. I don't want to waste a bunch of steel getting it out.
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vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

#2240

Post by vivi »

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Finally stopped putting this one off. S35VN Recon 1.

Took the shoulders off the bevel on my sander with a 120 grit belt without hitting the apex. Finished up on the 200 grit side of the harbor freight stone I'm always mentioning.

That's it. No stropping or single strokes on a fine ceramic sharpmaker rod.

paper towel slicing - https://dubz.live/c/62c02d (it sounds so different than a polished edge!)

shaving pretty cleanly - https://dubz.live/c/21ec21

I like how their S35VN sharpens up. Makes me want to find a spydie run in it to compare to it.
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