Byrd with high-end steel

Discuss Spyderco's byrd knives.
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anagarika
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby anagarika » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:44 pm

Used my Cara Cara to open some boxes (mostly tape but cut into some of the cardboard wall/side). Cleaned up and touched up on UF rod, it’s back to shaving my face nicely.

8Cr is no slouch.
Chris :spyder:

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Dexturete » Sun May 03, 2020 12:38 pm

carrot wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am
sal wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am
Kizer has their own heat treating facility. We've met with them a few times and they want to work with us. We've not moved forward. However, working with Kizer will be more expensive than byrd brand prices.
The Kizer knives I've handled (and owned) are beautifully made but could really use some Spyderco design. Anything coming out of this potential partnership would easily become my favorite EDCs. I really, really hope things work out!
This would be an excellent partnership.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby GarageBoy » Tue May 12, 2020 8:55 am

sal wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:05 pm
We'll be discussing the D2 option. Most will be out for the next month for series of shows.

sal
Only if it meets your standards of HT - we don't need more D2 for the sake of D2 :) :spyder:

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Donut » Tue May 19, 2020 9:54 pm

I was wondering how much better D2 is than 8Cr13. I've been kind of on a cheap knife kick off and on recently.

It seems like a lot of made in China knives come with AUS-8 or 8Cr13 (which translates to english as 440C :) ) or D2 is usually an option.

Are the Chinese steel factories capable of making a particle version of D2? CPM's D2 seemed to be pretty nice.
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby araneae » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:29 pm

8Cr13 is closer to Aus-8 than 440c from what I recall. You've got to watch Chinese D2, there are budget brands using legit D2 and other things fraudulently labeled D2. Even different knives with the same brand name can test as real and fake. Heat treat is another concern. Luvthemknives on YouTube tests a lot of them. There are some great Chinese made knives out there right now if you do some research.

That said, if Spyderco had a maker that could do D2 properly, it could be a selling feature for a lot of people. I'm not sure it is worth the premium that some companies charge, for example, a Honey Badger medium is $37 for 8Cr13, $57 for D2. Not worth it in my opinion. Exporting cpmD2 would add a lot to the cost. Standard D2, done well, is a good steel if you don't mind a bit lower corrosion resistance.
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby chronovore » Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:24 pm

Lots of Chinese companies have been using real S35VN and M390. An important question is always whether the heat treatment is good. That's true for all of the steels though. Some companies do better than others and some do particular steels better than others.

Chinese D2 varies a lot. While almost universally a step up in edge retention from 8Cr13Mov, it rarely lives up to the reputation that fed the marketing boom. Outpost76 has done a lot of testing on Chinese D2. It's worth watching, especially in comparison to other budget steels like 9Cr18Mov, N690, and 14C28N.

Coincidentally, his testing on BD1N convinced me to try it out. I just picked up a Manix 2 in BD1N. I'm not sure where this knife fits in my EDC rotation yet but I'll definitely be spending time with it.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Josh1973 » Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:48 pm

I would not see how using high end steels on Byrd knives would keep them at a budget price. Or not compete against Spyderco's more mid and high end knives. Which I am assuming would hurt their profitability, cause a decline in sales from some of their flagship and nicer knives. And basically cutting their own throat/loss of profit. On sales of their more expensive knives.

There is no way I want to see a harder to sharpen super steel and price increase of 300% on a Byrd. Whose sole purpose is to be more affordable. Compete with other budget knife brands. And easier to sharpen/maintain for 97% of the budget knife market folk. Who in the end make up the vast segment of knife purchasers.

Byrd knives are targeted towards those who cannot afford or will not pay $100 on up for a pocket knife. The non knife nut budget market is a whole lot bigger than the few who want the next big thing in super steel. And are willing to spend $200 on up to the thousands.

One example being the fully serrated Byrd Meadowlark hawkbill that is my favorite work knife. The Harpy can go for over $100 easily even used. And right now is very hard to find. Even on the secondary market. And I do not know of another knife with the same specs that I like in a work knife as the hawkbill I own.

It just makes more sense from a business point of view to offer a higher end USA / Limited edition line. Entry Japan made line. And budget Chinese made line. Then to expect a Byrd to be a higher end pricier knife trying to compete with Rats, Cold Steel, Gerber, and 100 other manufacturers that flood the budget line market.

Leave the Byrd as is. Or maybe a 9cr18 upgrade at best if it can continue to stay affordable in the budget knife market.
Last edited by Josh1973 on Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Josh1973 » Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:57 pm

Donut wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:54 pm
I was wondering how much better D2 is than 8Cr13. I've been kind of on a cheap knife kick off and on recently.

It seems like a lot of made in China knives come with AUS-8 or 8Cr13 (which translates to english as 440C :) ) or D2 is usually an option.

Are the Chinese steel factories capable of making a particle version of D2? CPM's D2 seemed to be pretty nice.
I would say yes and no. Depends on the manufacturer. Some are good. Some are shifty. And D2 in ANSI standards around the world does not have the same standards in other countries as in the USA for true D2 steel. Times change though. so take my statement with a grain of salt.

But yes China is capable of making CPM steel. Artisan Cutlery and CJRB just released AR-RPM9 powdered steel to compete with budget line super steel.

If you want more info just type in AR-RPM9 steel on an internet search. Very interesting read.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby S-3 ranch » Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:03 pm

Josh1973 wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:57 pm
Donut wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:54 pm
I was wondering how much better D2 is than 8Cr13. I've been kind of on a cheap knife kick off and on recently.

It seems like a lot of made in China knives come with AUS-8 or 8Cr13 (which translates to english as 440C :) ) or D2 is usually an option.

Are the Chinese steel factories capable of making a particle version of D2? CPM's D2 seemed to be pretty nice.
I would say yes and no. Depends on the manufacturer. Some are good. Some are shifty. And D2 in ANSI standards around the world does not have the same standards in other countries as in the USA for true D2 steel. Times change though. so take my statement with a grain of salt.

But yes China is capable of making CPM steel. Artisan Cutlery and CJRB just released AR-RPM9 powdered steel to compete with budget line super steel.

If you want more info just type in AR-RPM9 steel on an internet search. Very interesting read.
China is definitely jumping up the game with new bohler,and “ new steel factories “ imported vacuum heat treatment machinery
But here’s what I dug up about At-rpm9 , sounds like it’s garbage ( jury is still waiting on evidence) but better than 8cr13mov
“” Notes:
AR-RPM9 is a proprietary alloy by Artisan Cutlery, introduced circa mid 2020. Promoted as a PM steel for budget knives. Actual steel producer is unknown at the moment, at least to me, if you know who makes it, please share the info. If I had to guess I'd say Ahonest Changjiang is a reasonable guess, since Artisan Cutlery used 8Cr13MoV stainless steel made by Ahonest Changjiang, but who knows. From the published materials, the sentiment is, AR-RPM9 is supposed to improve over more traditional budget stainless steels from AISI 440A and AISI 440B groups. Composition remained a secret for a short while, until Artisan Cutlery posted it on their instagram page, in a short video, although still hard to find on the net. It's a stain resistant steel, which benefits from PM technology, easy to sharpen. Technically AR-RPM9 is a high carbon steel with 0.90% C in it, and 18% Cr ensures good stain resistance. Interestingly also contains trace amounts of Vanadium(V) 0.1% and Cobalt 0.3%. Silicon range is a bit strange 0.20%-0.80% and along with the Nickel specified as < 0.40% those are the only ranges mentioned in their video, the rest of the alloying elements are shows with precision to 2nd decimal place and obviously that's an average number, no way anyone can produce anything budget resembling with that accuracy. In terms of edge holding, won't compete with AISI D2 steel used in other knives form the same maker, but it is deemed an upgrade over other budget alloy used by them - 8Cr13MoV stainless steel.””

Spyderco is named in this article
https://knifenews.com/artisan-creates-p ... et-knives/
“”Think of an edge as a living thing that comes and goes, born, get's old, is reborn.””
SAL :spyder:

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Donut » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:58 am

S-3 ranch wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:03 pm
Josh1973 wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:57 pm
Donut wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:54 pm
I was wondering how much better D2 is than 8Cr13. I've been kind of on a cheap knife kick off and on recently.

It seems like a lot of made in China knives come with AUS-8 or 8Cr13 (which translates to english as 440C :) ) or D2 is usually an option.

Are the Chinese steel factories capable of making a particle version of D2? CPM's D2 seemed to be pretty nice.
I would say yes and no. Depends on the manufacturer. Some are good. Some are shifty. And D2 in ANSI standards around the world does not have the same standards in other countries as in the USA for true D2 steel. Times change though. so take my statement with a grain of salt.

But yes China is capable of making CPM steel. Artisan Cutlery and CJRB just released AR-RPM9 powdered steel to compete with budget line super steel.

If you want more info just type in AR-RPM9 steel on an internet search. Very interesting read.
China is definitely jumping up the game with new bohler,and “ new steel factories “ imported vacuum heat treatment machinery
But here’s what I dug up about At-rpm9 , sounds like it’s garbage ( jury is still waiting on evidence) but better than 8cr13mov
“” Notes:
AR-RPM9 is a proprietary alloy by Artisan Cutlery, introduced circa mid 2020. Promoted as a PM steel for budget knives. Actual steel producer is unknown at the moment, at least to me, if you know who makes it, please share the info. If I had to guess I'd say Ahonest Changjiang is a reasonable guess, since Artisan Cutlery used 8Cr13MoV stainless steel made by Ahonest Changjiang, but who knows. From the published materials, the sentiment is, AR-RPM9 is supposed to improve over more traditional budget stainless steels from AISI 440A and AISI 440B groups. Composition remained a secret for a short while, until Artisan Cutlery posted it on their instagram page, in a short video, although still hard to find on the net. It's a stain resistant steel, which benefits from PM technology, easy to sharpen. Technically AR-RPM9 is a high carbon steel with 0.90% C in it, and 18% Cr ensures good stain resistance. Interestingly also contains trace amounts of Vanadium(V) 0.1% and Cobalt 0.3%. Silicon range is a bit strange 0.20%-0.80% and along with the Nickel specified as < 0.40% those are the only ranges mentioned in their video, the rest of the alloying elements are shows with precision to 2nd decimal place and obviously that's an average number, no way anyone can produce anything budget resembling with that accuracy. In terms of edge holding, won't compete with AISI D2 steel used in other knives form the same maker, but it is deemed an upgrade over other budget alloy used by them - 8Cr13MoV stainless steel.””

Spyderco is named in this article
https://knifenews.com/artisan-creates-p ... et-knives/
Yeah, I read about that steel and it didn't seem too ground shaking. I wouldn't mind trying it and I have a CJRB in D2, which is a pretty well performing knife because it is ground pretty thin behind the edge.
-Brian
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chronovore
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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby chronovore » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:52 pm

Donut wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:58 am
S-3 ranch wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:03 pm
Josh1973 wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:57 pm
... Artisan Cutlery and CJRB just released AR-RPM9 powdered steel to compete with budget line super steel. ...
... But here’s what I dug up about At-rpm9 , sounds like it’s garbage ( jury is still waiting on evidence) but better than 8cr13mov ...
Yeah, I read about that steel and it didn't seem too ground shaking. I wouldn't mind trying it and I have a CJRB in D2, which is a pretty well performing knife because it is ground pretty thin behind the edge.
I got some of the initial run of AR-RPM9 over to Outpost76 for testing. Under his test conditions, overall edge retention was on par with ordinary 9Cr18Mov. That's a let-down for two reasons. First, wasn't the goal of making a PM steel based on 9Cr18Mov to get an improvement over 9Cr18Mov? Second, it joined ordinary 9Cr18Mov in getting blown away by 9Cr18Mov with a good heat treatment from Civivi.

Now, it's possible that Artisan just hadn't gotten an optimal heat treatment figured out for their first commercial batch. (Have they yet?) I have seen claims that AR-RPM9 strops up better. I haven't tested that claim. (At least in theory, AR-RPM9 should be a little tougher.) I've also seen claims that the corrosion resistance is better. I haven't seen those claims tested either.

All that said, 9Cr18Mov is a decent budget steel. Even with a middle-of-the-road heat treatment, edge retention is decent and corrosion resistance is very good. That level of performance might be okay at the price level Artisan wants for AR-RPM9. It just feels a little silly. Given what we've seen from Civivi's 9Cr18Mov, I wonder what AR-RPM9 could do with a better heat treatment.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby araneae » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:18 am

I have the CJRB Maileah from the first run and recently added a 2nd as they were running a 20% sale on Amazon. Sharpens up nicely and works fine for me.

I think Spyderco would be trusted to do 9Cr18 as best as it can be on a production basis. I think we will see something down the line, I know Sal is listening.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick

Just got: pink/black D'fly

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby skeeg11 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:13 am

Times are a changin'. The bar for steel in budget knives is being raised and I'm sure that Sal is paying attention.

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby sal » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:23 pm

Yes, we're listening and we're currently making adjustments.

sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby Joshcrutchley1 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:16 pm

sal wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:23 pm
Yes, we're listening and we're currently making adjustments.

sal
Can't believe I missed this! Thank you Sal!!!

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby pantagana23 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:17 pm

I certainly hope backlocks get 9Cr18 upgrade.

They have been left behind during the upgrades so far (except for Starling).

Really would love to see Robin in 9Cr18 or BD1

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby araneae » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:00 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am


We have no problem with using higher end steels on byrd brand. But we have to know that the steel is good (clean) and that the maker can work with it. We are trying this with the Polestar and the Alcyone (CTS-BD1). The maker has his own modern heat treating ovens and he's a knife afi. But sales results have not shown that the market is responding to the higher end steel, we think because of the price difference.

Kizer has their own heat treating facility. We've met with them a few times and they want to work with us. We've not moved forward. However, working with Kizer will be more expensive than byrd brand prices.

sal
Sal, I'd like to highly recommend connecting with Kizer, whether it's for a few higher level Byrds or some actual Spydie models. I've got over a dozen now and I'm super impressed with what they put out. For around $60 I'm getting incredibly well finished knives with n690 or 154cm. At $100 I'm getting s35vn and interesting handle materials and finishes.

The company is clearly run by knife afi's. Their designers solicit input on social media and it is incorporated into new variants regularly. They CQI they're designs and put out improved generations of their mainstays. Sound familiar?

They are playing with m390, 3v and other top steels. I've interacted with one of their marketing people and find her to be pleasant, knowledgeable and generous. She's also the designer of an upcoming model. They are knife people and I would love to see what they could make with a Spydie hole in it. Just my 2 cents.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick

Just got: pink/black D'fly

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

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Re: Byrd with high-end steel

Postby chronovore » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:35 pm

araneae wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:00 pm
sal wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am


We have no problem with using higher end steels on byrd brand. But we have to know that the steel is good (clean) and that the maker can work with it. We are trying this with the Polestar and the Alcyone (CTS-BD1). The maker has his own modern heat treating ovens and he's a knife afi. But sales results have not shown that the market is responding to the higher end steel, we think because of the price difference.

Kizer has their own heat treating facility. We've met with them a few times and they want to work with us. We've not moved forward. However, working with Kizer will be more expensive than byrd brand prices.

sal
Sal, I'd like to highly recommend connecting with Kizer, whether it's for a few higher level Byrds or some actual Spydie models. I've got over a dozen now and I'm super impressed with what they put out. For around $60 I'm getting incredibly well finished knives with n690 or 154cm. At $100 I'm getting s35vn and interesting handle materials and finishes.

The company is clearly run by knife afi's. Their designers solicit input on social media and it is incorporated into new variants regularly. They CQI they're designs and put out improved generations of their mainstays. Sound familiar?

They are playing with m390, 3v and other top steels. I've interacted with one of their marketing people and find her to be pleasant, knowledgeable and generous. She's also the designer of an upcoming model. They are knife people and I would love to see what they could make with a Spydie hole in it. Just my 2 cents.
I still think an across-the-board upgrade to 9Cr18Mov would be best for the budget line. Even with an average heat treatment, it is a substantial performance upgrade from 8Cr13Mov and shouldn't cost much more. Lots of Chinese manufacturers seem to use it. WE takes it to a higher level with a superior heat treatment but I'm guessing a WE-made Spyderco is still a pipe dream. :smiling-halo

I have a bunch of Kizer knives. Overall quality is decent but not as good as WE. I've been happy with their N690 as a budget steel. The big deal there, which cuts to the heart of the issue, is that they use it in $50-60 knives. N690 is okay at the $70-100 level where it makes a decent alternative to VG-10. At the $50-60 level, or less during sales, N690 is a solid performer. It puts similarly priced knives in 8Cr13Mov to shame.


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