Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:45 am

More thoughts on 15v.

It seems this steel shows great promise and has a range of hardness that can be selected from 64-65rc for balance and 67-68rc for maximum horsepower.
This is from a modified HT protocol and these values are not on the spec sheet.

CPM 15v with modified protocol should smoke Maxamet and is not as prone to warping and has good Stability yet not as difficult to grind as Rex 121 at full hardness. A nice sweet spot and I like the finer carbide size over Rex121 but I do love Rex 121 which is still the "king" especially at 70rc but the cost and difficulty to make Rex 121 into a thin geometry knife is unreal.

With further testing, I found that HT protocol from the industry specification sheet is best for parts not knives.

Just not as stable for edges on a thin cross section. Also following the recommended HT doesn't get as hard.
Last edited by Deadboxhero on Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
Pelagic
Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: East Coast/Nomadic

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Pelagic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:47 am

15v sounds promising!
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:25 pm
8dps is going to be sharper then 15dps.
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:15 pm

Geometry Limits of 15v

-0.005" bte 15dps, laser like, but no lateral protection for user error because of this it's for very advanced and experienced users only. Will have the Highest cutting performance. Highest hardness required to strengthen the blade. Lower dps will work better with higher matrix strength to hold and support carbides at apex. Contrary to popular belief in some circles that high carbide volume steels can't go low edge angles, they simply haven't used at high hardness and with advanced abrasives. 60rc is much too soft for low angles for a steel like this and the edge will crumble to a working edge fast

-0.010" bte 15dps, slicey with sufficient lateral strength for this steel for a wider range of users, pure cutting performance reduced for some durability, nice sweet spot. Still more slicey than almost anything on market.

0.015" bte 15dps balancing point, most will think is incredibly slicey without realizing the compromise. Advanced users will want thinner and don't need the training wheels. Will be durable for almost all users unless purposefully used as a non cutting tool in a ridiculous manner (prying, twisting)

0.020" bte 15dps. Cutting performance sacrificed. Slicing effect diminished enormously. Highly durable but not able to cut as good or as long through some materials. When apex integrity diminishes will need more force to cut and will wedge more. Difficult to break the edge in a folder. Blade is still not invincible, can break using extreme shock loads with a dull edge just like anything unless we sacrifice cutting performance more and more until left with the ultimate durablity, a soft bar of steel
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
p_atrick
Member
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:35 pm
Location: Bay Area

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby p_atrick » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:04 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:15 pm
Geometry Limits of 15v...
It's amazing that all of these measurements are (for the most part) thinner than your average production knife. And at the upper ends of the spectrum, the description of 15v at high HRC is pretty much devoid of anything special. That description sounds like you could be talking about S30V or S35Vn. These small changes seem to have big effects. I've got a lot to learn about performance and sharpening.

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:32 pm

Can't have magic steel without Geometry, it's the Geometry that cuts, yet at the same time one needs a steel that has the sufficient chemistry used as building blocks to create high strength microstructures, it is with heat treatment using time and temperature to manipulate these building blocks that the most stable structures can be created at peak hardness for a given material yet no way to HT 3v to s110v levels or vice versa.

This is why I like CPM 15v and why I'm not using M390.
That chromium volume reduces the obtainable matrix hardness, it also makes larger carbides and reduces the effectiveness of the vanadium alloy for making the finer, harder MC type, pure vanadium carbides at 81-83rc by stealing the Vanadium for M7C3 Vanadium enhanced Chromium K2 Carbide clusters which aren't as fine or as hard at that Cr volume.

M390 with special protocol can only top out to 64ish but is a lot more brittle and softer than 15v at 67-68rc and not as wear resistant. It's just that 15v is not corrison resistant. Trade off. Yet if one wants the top edge performance m390 is not it, even with a fancy protocol and hardness increase which most still haven't experienced in M390. Folks would be surprised with 15v if they only had the access and knowledge to see and use.

M390 gets a lot of fan fair but it's not the best even with a hardness bump and special protocol.

However it's so incredibly popular in the community that M390 doesn't need to be explained as much as 15v which really no one knows about except in this thread.





p_atrick wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:04 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:15 pm
Geometry Limits of 15v...
It's amazing that all of these measurements are (for the most part) thinner than your average production knife. And at the upper ends of the spectrum, the description of 15v at high HRC is pretty much devoid of anything special. That description sounds like you could be talking about S30V or S35Vn. These small changes seem to have big effects. I've got a lot to learn about performance and sharpening.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
ZrowsN1s
Member
Posts: 4411
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: San Diego, California USA

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby ZrowsN1s » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:51 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:32 pm
....... Folks would be surprised with 15v if they only had the access and knowledge to see and use.

M390 gets a lot of fan fair but it's not the best even with a hardness bump and special protocol.

However it's so incredibly popular in the community that M390 doesn't need to be explained as much as 15v which really no one knows about except in this thread.
One of the reasons I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. You could be making knives and money instead of taking the time to educate us on the subject. You don't even need Spyderco to make a 15V knife for you. Thanks for taking the time to move the ball forward for the rest of us. Truly a community service.
Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal :D
-Matt

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:01 pm

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:51 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:32 pm
....... Folks would be surprised with 15v if they only had the access and knowledge to see and use.

M390 gets a lot of fan fair but it's not the best even with a hardness bump and special protocol.

However it's so incredibly popular in the community that M390 doesn't need to be explained as much as 15v which really no one knows about except in this thread.
One of the reasons I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. You could be making knives and money instead of taking the time to educate us on the subject. You don't even need Spyderco to make a 15V knife for you. Thanks for taking the time to move the ball forward for the rest of us. Truly a community service.
Haha thanks, hope we get a spydie we can buy with this dope steel.

Yeah gots to share. I had a customer purchase a knife at 67rc and his buddies didn't understand "why didn't he temper the steel" :D

There just isn't enough good information out there about what steels can do in 2019.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
Woodpuppy
Member
Posts: 1198
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Woodpuppy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:19 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:01 pm
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:51 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:32 pm
....... Folks would be surprised with 15v if they only had the access and knowledge to see and use.

M390 gets a lot of fan fair but it's not the best even with a hardness bump and special protocol.

However it's so incredibly popular in the community that M390 doesn't need to be explained as much as 15v which really no one knows about except in this thread.
One of the reasons I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. You could be making knives and money instead of taking the time to educate us on the subject. You don't even need Spyderco to make a 15V knife for you. Thanks for taking the time to move the ball forward for the rest of us. Truly a community service.
Haha thanks, hope we get a spydie we can buy with this dope steel.

Yeah gots to share. I had a customer purchase a knife at 67rc and his buddies didn't understand "why didn't he temper the steel" :D

There just isn't enough good information out there about what steels can do in 2019.
I have to wonder... do his buddies mistake annealing for tempering?
:spyder: AUS8, M4, H1, VG10, 52100, HAP40, REX45, N690Co, CTS-BD1, CRUWEAR, AEB-L :spyder:

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:39 pm

Woodpuppy wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:19 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:01 pm
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:51 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:32 pm
....... Folks would be surprised with 15v if they only had the access and knowledge to see and use.

M390 gets a lot of fan fair but it's not the best even with a hardness bump and special protocol.

However it's so incredibly popular in the community that M390 doesn't need to be explained as much as 15v which really no one knows about except in this thread.
One of the reasons I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. You could be making knives and money instead of taking the time to educate us on the subject. You don't even need Spyderco to make a 15V knife for you. Thanks for taking the time to move the ball forward for the rest of us. Truly a community service.
Haha thanks, hope we get a spydie we can buy with this dope steel.

Yeah gots to share. I had a customer purchase a knife at 67rc and his buddies didn't understand "why didn't he temper the steel" :D

There just isn't enough good information out there about what steels can do in 2019.
I have to wonder... do his buddies mistake annealing for tempering?
Nah, it was a fair assumption
67rc is really dang hard.
That's the AQ for a lot of steels *so it was a fair assumption* these ARE tempered however.
Last edited by Deadboxhero on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
Woodpuppy
Member
Posts: 1198
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Woodpuppy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:45 pm

AQ?
:spyder: AUS8, M4, H1, VG10, 52100, HAP40, REX45, N690Co, CTS-BD1, CRUWEAR, AEB-L :spyder:

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Woodpuppy wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:45 pm
AQ?
"As Quenched" AQ Hardness, not tempered.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
Woodpuppy
Member
Posts: 1198
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Woodpuppy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:18 pm

Ah! I hadn’t learned that on Forged in Fire :p
:spyder: AUS8, M4, H1, VG10, 52100, HAP40, REX45, N690Co, CTS-BD1, CRUWEAR, AEB-L :spyder:

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 11901
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby sal » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:27 pm

Shawn,

You are not tempering at all?

sal

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:21 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:27 pm
Shawn,

You are not tempering at all?

sal
No, I am tempering, steel is not usable without tempering, what confuses folks is the high HRC, some don't understand how it's so high especially when they are only familiar with basic carbon steels and stainless steels

These high alloy PM tool steels can have increased solid solution strengthing thanks to the carbides size and volume that can help prevent the movement of dislocations in the steel helping resist deforming under stress, this meaning they are simply harder after Austenizing, quenching, and tempering.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 11901
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby sal » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:27 pm

Thanx Shawn,

Would you please email your exact tempering method? We're expecting a sample of 15V and we'd like to try to see if we can do that in production.

sal

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:35 pm

Woodpuppy wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:18 pm
Ah! I hadn’t learned that on Forged in Fire :p
They don't show the tempering in the show. The contests have to quench the blades and one of the judges J.Neilson tempers them off screen before the next challenge.

Tempering is usually down twice for two hours each time for a set temperture.

It's done usually for two hours because we need some time to complete the transformation and diffuse some of the carbon out of the martensite to reduce the strain and make the steel more usable.

There is a break between the two cycles to allow the steel to come back to room temp so some of the areas that didn't convert to martensite during quenching can convert, than the freshly converted martensite also has to be tempered, so it's tempered again.
Last edited by Deadboxhero on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:36 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Thanx Shawn,

Would you please email your exact tempering method? We're expecting a sample of 15V and we'd like to try to see if we can do that in production.

sal
Yes, I'll send over the latest protocol.

Thanks Sal.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

basedlarrydavid
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:52 pm

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby basedlarrydavid » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:30 am

sal wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Thanx Shawn,

Would you please email your exact tempering method? We're expecting a sample of 15V and we'd like to try to see if we can do that in production.

sal
This is why I’m on this forum. 👌🏻
More K390 and 10V, please.

Instagram: @ohioapexing

crazywednesday
Member
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:32 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby crazywednesday » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 am

basedlarrydavid wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:30 am
sal wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Thanx Shawn,

Would you please email your exact tempering method? We're expecting a sample of 15V and we'd like to try to see if we can do that in production.

sal
This is why I’m on this forum. 👌🏻
Me too. Came for the knives, stayed for the community
Justin

The Meat man
Member
Posts: 2218
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby The Meat man » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:49 am

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:36 pm
sal wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Thanx Shawn,

Would you please email your exact tempering method? We're expecting a sample of 15V and we'd like to try to see if we can do that in production.

sal
Yes, I'll send over the latest protocol.

Thanks Sal.
:eek:
A BBB/Spyderco collab on 15V?! Yes! :D
- Connor

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bigboned, Bing [Bot], Cuchillo, DSH007, elena86, eRoc, Google [Bot], legOFwhat?, Majestic-12 [Bot], Mike_Arta, Mushroom, Redman5006, silvershade255, soulspy, SpyderSeth, steelcity16 and 18 guests